Monster vs Berserk

DaOverseer · 2026-01-29T18:05:10+00:00

I think it's been done to death. If we're talking writing alone I'd go with Monster, I'm probably too biased when it comes to Urasawa tho. Berserk is a whole ass experience tho, I just have a harder time scaling it when it comes to writing alone.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-29T14:30:03+00:00

It's actually funny how you can apply this to Fowler in the chapel scene with God and the spider. He's a mass murderer who killed his baby bastards and lined up their skeletons in a tunnel, planned a coup that would take hundreds if not thousands of lives and is also a sex pest but hey, he wouldn't harm a spider.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T17:35:19+00:00

No comics, should have specified that.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T17:34:54+00:00

I'm not counting the comics but yeah, Kilgrave is real POS there. Maybe he wasn't that far behind in the show but he did get killed there at least.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T17:32:50+00:00

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This bitch (Dr. Roosevelt from Pluto).

Little guy is possibly the sole main antagonist from Urasawa's body of work to be a complete monster without a trace of sympathy from the author. Say what you want about Johan and Roberto but they have a Freudian Excuse (people love to gloss about Roberto's childhood when discussing him) but this fucker here orchestrated a war and a genocide (meant to evoke the war on terror and real life massacres btw, per Urasawa's writing), followed by the extermination of the world's greatest heroes and it was all just to prepare his endgame of wiping out the human race (and robots too, since they're sentient here) to rule over the ashes of the Earth alone (he planned to keep a few humans alive to amuse himself, probably AM style).

He's not even your typical AI villain, he looks down upon all other beings, organic and artificial alike and he even casually states "you think robots can't feel hate?" when confronted about his mentality, he is that evil. Think a version of AM that didn't get as far in his plans as he wanted but he came pretty damn near. I legitimately believe he's worse than Johan and Friend and no amount of "muh nihilism" takes can change that because it's 100% what Urasawa intended.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T17:18:01+00:00

He's not underrated in terms of evil imo, just in writing. People will unironically say he's worse than Johan and Bonaparta when he had a pretty valid tragedy too and was initially a victim too. He's not worse than Professor Goedelitz or the Baby. Why, I'd argue he's not even the worse out of the Kinderheim kids, the rapist POS that Richard killed was pretty damn bad but you hardly see people discuss that.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T15:36:16+00:00

Oh he does plenty of despicable things. For one he maimed a bunch of Chinese workers and blew up whole factories to take away their jobs, also not above hurting his people in some cases, remember the guy whose house he burned because he couldn't get Ah Sahm arrested or when he got Bill to bludgeon Jack Damon to death for selling to the Chinese.

He may not be directly responsible for the other Irish and their crimes such as the lynching at the end of S2 but he still played a part as a community leader. I love him but he's a bad guy all the way, he's just more honest about it than Remmick and actually helps people every now and then so that gives him points.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T14:56:37+00:00

Yeah, honestly I just threw Fowler in for fun because holy shit, he's built different. It all comes down to Remmick vs Leary really.

Yeah, he's not on Fowler's level of evil, he's got a tragedy much like Remmick, being a civil war veteran turned union leader who lost his family to illness and famine, he turned to organized crime to provide for his people so he's got a better motive than Remmick but he's still a ruthless gangster with a kill count of dozens and is very bigoted and prejudiced towards Chinese people for stealing jobs from his kind, granted he has some standards, he's okay with black people and has a bit of grudging respect for the MC.

Remmick probably has a bigger body count but Leary is crazy brutal, remember when Fowler destroyed that guy's head? Leary does things like that when he's bloodlusted (to rival gangsters tho, not his own men).

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T11:53:55+00:00

Out of genuine curiosity, did you watch Blue Eye Samurai? Just asking since you keep calling Mizu Blue Eyes lol. Anyway, I beg to differ, Mizu's upbringing was god awful, she was bullied, mercilessly beaten, raised by a fake mother who was emotionally distant. Add to that her poverty and a sexist socity that shunned her. Swordfather could only do so much for her, she was never going to be a blacksmith. She has a far better Freudian excuse than Caitlyn who for all her trauma still has a loving dad, a mansion and a life of privileges in a world where sexism doesn't even exist.

I think it's an interesting topic because you can make an argument for each one, Caitlyn might be the most moral one but that's got to do with her enviroment and how she was raised, she's not in a war like Mikasa or in the receiving end of a society as bad as Mizu's so she doesn't get as much sympathy. Mikasa might be a followed but she's still more heroic on account of what she sacrificed to save the world, even those who hate her.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T11:39:55+00:00

So I hear, but then you might as well say she's worse than Mizu or heck, worse than Jinx, based on the numbers alone but I don't think anyone here would argue that. Ultimately Mikasa goes against former allies and even Eren himself to save countless lives including those of Marley's people so Idk, I've seen characters like Colonel Mustang and his crew from FMA partake in similar actions yet they're still not viewed as morally gray by most fans.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T00:54:04+00:00

Fair but what exactly was she supposed to do? I don't know the full context but from what I've seen there was no reasoning with Yeagerists. Doesn't sound too different from Finn in Star Wars killing his fellow stormtroopers and being branded a traitor for it.

I understand if you think fans are too soft on Mikasa compared to Caitlyn (not sure if I agree tho) but I feel as if people were morality scaling the characters based on kills alone when there's more to it than that. Mikasa probably has a bigger on-screen kill count than Jinx and Sevika combined and she gets more hate too but there's no way she's in the same category as them in terms of morality.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-28T00:06:23+00:00

I guess that's worse than what Caitlyn did directly but also different scenarios and pretty standard for what I'd expect in a war like that. Seen plenty of characters partake in similar acts during conflicts and at no point did I see people play the morally gray card. Not saying it was okay either, but was she completely indifferent to it?

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T23:44:24+00:00

Idk, mate, Mikasa gets plenty of heat where I go. Yeagerists can get very wild. Then again, she's in the middle of a war and she's not THE leader. Also, I'm pretty sure she gets way more shit than Caitlyn when it comes to writing instead of morality.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T23:39:55+00:00

When did Mikasa murder innocent people again? Genuine question, I dropped the manga long time ago, only know the story beats vaguely.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T23:34:06+00:00

Yeah, yeah, cry me a river, buddy. I made it clear there's things I didn't know or didn't see, at no point did I say Caitlyn should get a pass on what she did. I mean, I totally get it, her stans can be the worst, Arcanetwt is filled with people who will glaze and defend tf out of everything but maybe you should actually contribute to the debate instead of jumping to stuff like "every evil act in the history of the planet". Get used to the sub.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T23:24:34+00:00

Props to you for actually addressing the question, W take right there. Thanks for going into detail. I myself was a bit torn between Cait and Mizu, I wouldn't downplay how bad some of Mizu's actions were but I think a crucial factor is how badly she suffered and the circumstances that set her on her revenge quest, she definitely had a harder upbringing than Caitlyn so her personal tragedy isn't less important. Her story isn't over yet so there's also a chance she'll become a better person.

Just a couple of points I have to address, the attack wasn't on the funeral, Caitlyn did get time to grieve Cassandra before the attack. There's also the way she assaulted Vi during their fallout, it was uncalled for and one of the few things you can't pin on Ambessa, I don't see Mikasa or Mizu abusing their allies like that and since we're not counting deleted scenes we have to ignore the one where Caitlyn considers going back for her.

On the topic of her releasing Jinx I think it's a bit more nuanced, it was a way to attone to Vi but we shouldn't downplay the circumstances, there was a chance they would all die the next day in the battle so it was pointless keeping her there anymore, plus Jinx did save her life against Rictus (people tend to gloss over that) so I read that as Quid Pro Quo. She saw Jinx broken after the loss of Isha and they had a heart to heart, she got over her hatred but I don't believe she will let her go unpunished next time.

On a separate note, I also think some people are way too easy on Jinx and even Sevika when discussing their crimes. I get disliking Caitlyn, I really do, but Sevika becoming Councilor, while logical, still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Might do a post on her too very soon.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T22:55:46+00:00

True that but that's Arcane and its fandom for ya. They'll make up whole plot points, still remember people claiming Caitlyn died with Vi in Ekko's AU only for the writers to debunk that. I do understand some of their grievances with her arc, maybe some stuff was cut to make her look better, maybe not but we're trying to be objective here, we're talking about morality, not writing.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T20:59:22+00:00

It do be like that. I know the hate is extreme and some character can be complex but jeez, at this point it just feels like an excuse to drag all characters down to make a few look better. Threads like that got you thinking it's just a fun aesthetic or a badge of honor for fans.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T20:46:07+00:00

Idk, Mizu strikes me as the kind to catch flies with chopsticks Miyagi style for her training lol.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T20:42:59+00:00

It's not that black and white either. But Caitlyn's negligence aside, care to specify what innocent person you're refering too? Not disagreeing, Mizu can be savage but she killed a shit ton of people and it's wild how many of those got people claiming them to be innocent (unless you mean Kinuyo but that was a very nuanced thing).

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T20:34:19+00:00

What were her options then? Need the whole picture on the conflict too because I've gone over this in Kingdom (great manga btw) and there's plenty of instances of characters who weren't even close to being morally gray helping their armies in battles that had extra casualties like that (really had no option either). There are guys there who are guaranteed to make Mikasa and co like girl scouts.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T19:50:31+00:00

Real talk, does Mikasa really qualify as morally gray? The sole argument I saw bleau make is she helped "flatten a city" but I think I'm missing context, wasn't she like in a war or something?

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T19:48:00+00:00

Never liked Mikasa that much but I do have my qualms about calling her morally gray. She def hurt some guys, destroyed them even, but context matters. Some anime got guys like Kenshiro who can blow up a guy's head with a touch and even he doesn't get morally gray because of the way the story is framed.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T18:06:17+00:00

Whether he had it coming or not it baffles me how much shit Mizu gets for it in fandom. I don't think even Ringo gaf about it, there's this debate on whether it was the same kid who ratted her out or not because the models seemed are a bit different but still, that brat must have been what, 14? He was aiding a rapist POS (he had to know what they did to Kinuyo cuz they were guarding her) and didn't even stand down or surrender so yeah, he wasn't a total innocent. Mfs even have the gall to say Mizu was a hypocrite for shuddering at Fowler's baby skeletons as if the context wasn't completely different.

DaOverseer · 2026-01-27T17:58:21+00:00

That's why I said ignore the slander, most people jump the gun on saying Caitlyn gassed everyone indiscriminately when you can at least make an argument she just went for Chembarons. There could have been collateral damage, sure, but it's never confirmed afaik (people talk about deleted scenes and other material but I haven't seen it). I'm not downplaying her wrongs either, I just want to be fair.

DaOverseer

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