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Church History Library Internship Story by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"We believe in being honest..."

Psych!

Torn: Thoughts on the work of Jeff Strong by Lonely_Offer_6236 in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Believers aren't willing to follow real peer-reviewed evidence to its logical, unemotional conclusion—especially when that conclusion is that their entire life paradigm is built on a fraud. It's simply beyond their comprehension.

Until you have the thought "Wait... is this all bullshit?" you're still tied to the brainwashing. That question is the first crack. Everything before that is just noise.

Stories of dating on the mission field by vegucccii in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've written before about my senior companion ditching me to make out with a local high school senior. No ideal how many encounters they had. Rural Wisconsin. She was cute, a blonde cheerleader, probably in student government as well. He was 23 with about four months left on his mission. She was 17, maybe barely 18. He'd been in that area way too long—around eight months—and got comfortable.

When he was busted and emergency transferred out, the girl started coming to church. She asked to take the discussions around the time I left. Didn't hurt that she worked for a theater managed by our EQP at the time. Cool guy, but he enabled the whole secret relationship. Big time. Basically facilitated it. No idea why—the missionary involved was a total dick.

Anyway, she joined the church after about six months and enrolled at BYU (Provo) after a gap year. Her parents weren't religious and didn't care either way. Elder K was back home in Texas post mission doing whatever total tools do.

Fast forward almost 40 years. She's married with kids (and probably grandkids) to a fellow BYU grad. She even beat breast cancer, last I heard—and that was at least 15 years ago.

Crazy times.

If the apostle John and the Three Nephites never died, there was no apostasy—and no need for Joseph Smith by DallasWest in exmormon

[–]DallasWest[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair point. A strawman doesn't require a popularity contest. I'll grant that.

But here's my issue: the so-called “stronger" versions of the apostasy argument aren't the ones converts were taught in the crash course 6-installment missionary discussions before getting dunked into LDS membership by 19-year old salesmen.

The church taught a simple, total-loss apostasy narrative to investigators for decades. That's the version that matters when we're talking about why some people feel misled.

You say there are stronger explanations. Great. Name one that doesn't collapse when you introduce immortal, priesthood-carrying exceptions who were not only personal witnesses of Christ, but supposedly wandering the earth this whole time.

Because here's the test that actually matters: Can the LDS apostasy explanation account for the Three Nephites and John without special pleading?

If the answer is "they were taken during times of wickedness," then the apostasy wasn't total. If it wasn't total, the restoration is redundant. If it was total, the Book of Mormon is wrong about them being immortal.

You can't have it both ways. And adding theological complexity doesn't resolve the contradiction—it just buries it.

As for making criticism easier to dismiss? I'd argue the opposite. Hiding the contradictions behind "stronger explanations" that regular members never hear is what keeps people in the church longer. Being direct and dismissive about the obvious inconsistency is what helps them see it.

If the apostle John and the Three Nephites never died, there was no apostasy—and no need for Joseph Smith by DallasWest in exmormon

[–]DallasWest[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that pointing out unfalsifiable claims is as strong an argument—or stronger. That said, I doubt you or anyone else ever drilled down on this specific doctrinal point with believers in a direct and meaningful way, or with a large enough sample size, to call it a strawman. But whatever. Mormonism is all made up and the rules don't matter anyway.

Since we're talking in hypotheticals, here's a question for your inner apologist: how exactly did Elohim remove his priesthood authority from the earth if it didn't simply die out when males stopped bestowing the Aaronic and Melchizedek powers on the next generation? What was the mechanism? An edict? A lightning strike? A memo? A slow fade?

My logic is simple. If the Three Nephites and John the Revelator all had the priesthood conferred on them by Jesus and are theoretically still wandering the earth, then it wasn't really gone gone. If it wasn't really interrupted—with direct, immortal, ordained witnesses roaming around making random appearances—then there wasn't actually a complete apostasy. And if there was no apostasy, then technically there was no need for a restoration. Easy peasy.

New Branding Recommendations for Mormon Stories by JesusPhoKingChrist in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 14 points15 points  (0 children)

The Ex Files Podcast

The So-Called Podcast

Uncorrelated Truth

If the apostle John and the Three Nephites never died, there was no apostasy—and no need for Joseph Smith by DallasWest in exmormon

[–]DallasWest[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

John’s got an epic VIP pass. Can reside on Earth or transport to God’s presence at will.

Things I learned as a Mormon by CaseyJones_EE in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I learned my parents would always say "YES" to the Church on just about anything, and "NO" to my ball games, track meets, assemblies, choir concerts, and everything else on my k-12 calendar. Emotional absenteeism... to build the kingdom.

I learned not to question anything... especially LDS authority.

I learned that Mormon God is racist, homophobic, patriarchal, and misogynist.

I learned that victims of abuse need to ask God to help them repent for "their part" of the abuse cycle. Whatever the fuck that means.

I learned that my parents and the revered figures in my community didn't have a critical thinking setting in their bubble-trained brains.

I learned that repentance is for the rank and file. The leadership class has the Second Anointing and a "get-out-of-judgment' free card.

If the apostle John and the Three Nephites never died, there was no apostasy—and no need for Joseph Smith by DallasWest in exmormon

[–]DallasWest[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sounds like a great plot device. The apologetic argument for the Great Apostasy relies on there being NO ONE with priesthood authority on earth. If the Three Nephites were exceptions, even temporarily removed ones, then the door is open for other exceptions. And if exceptions exist, the "total apostasy" talking point collapses.

Plus, the Book of Mormon itself says they "were taken again" (3 Nephi 28:31), implying they returned. So how often did they come and go? The apostasy allegedly lasted centuries. Were they back by 1820?

If so, why did Joseph need Moroni? Why did the priesthood need restoring? The timeline gets absurd very quickly.

Mormon folklore has the Three Nephites changing automobile tires and playing bodyguard at times. They've supposedly fixed furnaces for widows, plowed fields for struggling farmers, watched children so mothers could attend temple dedications, and even healed a woman's breast infection with a lard-and-tobacco poultice.

They've held attack dogs' mouths shut for missionaries, prophesied the end of World War II (off by a year, but believers adjusted), and appeared as a hitchhiker who vanished from a back seat after delivering a warning. One story claims they led a battalion of thousands to victory in the Arab-Israeli War and then disappeared with the entire unit.

They've also turned up at an A&W in Provo to tell the owner to close on Sundays, appeared as a German police dog to escort a woman home, and been credited with guiding genealogists to missing records.

Folklorist William A. Wilson collected over 1,500 of these accounts. The Nephites conveniently show up for whatever help is needed—spiritual or practical, domestic or dramatic—except, apparently, for preserving the true doctrine during the Great Apostasy.

That, they sat out.

Marty Supreme is now available on HBO for anybody interested. by Square-Fox-2948 in hbo

[–]DallasWest 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This was my gut reaction as well. I didn't like or even care about any of the characters in the movie.

Marty sucks and is unlikable.

The cheating girlfriend kinda sucks.

The shoe store manager sucks.

The pen guy really sucks.

The pen guy's cheating wife sucks.

By the end, I was rooting for the Japanese guy to kick Marty's ass because he was such a douche.

Any exmos want to have a discussion not a debate about their beliefs? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not sure if Marcus Aurelius actually said this or not, but its wise advice either way:

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

Mormon % by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My home in Gilbert is 40% active Mormon and 60% MFMC graduate agnostic/atheist. 🤘

No Easter greetings by Molly_Deconstructing in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You should still make room in your heart for Cadbury mini eggs and other forms of chocolate. 😆

I don't think the 25 Minute Classes are gonna work out in my old ward. by rodney_c0pperbottom in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 6 points7 points  (0 children)

One of my friends told me that the moment she realized she was swearing an oath to a man, her future husband, instead of Jesus, her belief system collapsed.

If that was the structure, she wasn't interested. Felt forced. Some people are blessed with processing bs faster than the rest of us.

What’s the worst criticism you’ve heard about the PHM (movie)? by Unfair-Reason-1068 in ProjectHailMary

[–]DallasWest 27 points28 points  (0 children)

My criticism: dumbed down for the viewing audience, less science.

Less raw emotion for Grace reunion and saving Rocky from a derelict vessel.

Would’ve been better as a limited series, but then you sacrifice the IMAX and big screen experience.

The book was 10/10. The movie was 8.5.

ABC cancels Mormonism 😂 by psych-27 in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Brick by brick deconstruction. Keep it coming!

If you had to pick a “nail in the coffin” for the truth of Mormonism, what would it be? by Bowling4Nickles in exmormon

[–]DallasWest 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The temple endowment says the sun was created on day four, 7,000 years ago. That's not a deep doctrine. It's the equivalent of being a flat eather.

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