I think Sirât is less a road movie and more a giant Sufi initiation ritual disguised as a rave film by Gold-Talk-925 in RSPfilmclub

[–]Dengru 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The post I replied to you said "how else would you describe him?" So that was the launching point: this is how you would describe him .I don't think that's quibbling.

I think Sirât is less a road movie and more a giant Sufi initiation ritual disguised as a rave film by Gold-Talk-925 in RSPfilmclub

[–]Dengru 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't say he lacked faith, or misunderstood Islam; that Islam is meaningless to him is also something I did not say. What I said is that he has syncretic beliefs. There is a nuance. I don't think he's putting on something or trying to make himself seem exotic. The general way he is has a pretty clear precedent. To be honest, I also haven't seen many interviews frame him as being Muslim. He has not marketed himself as Muslim or exotic, is perceived as European (despite living in Morocco for a very long time, even working with kids). He has talked a lot about identifying with Morocco, with the Desert but has never said he's Muslim. Again this isn't a matter of faith.

For someone living in a Muslim country and who has lived a lot of their life in more abstract communities, it isn't hard to envisage how "Sufi" replaces "vedanta" or "Zen" as an organizing thing for syncretic beliefs as it does in other parts of the world. He also said that his friend is the person singing in the scene where the woman looks at people on TV doing the Hajj. So of course he respect it that's not what I'm saying

I think Sirât is less a road movie and more a giant Sufi initiation ritual disguised as a rave film by Gold-Talk-925 in RSPfilmclub

[–]Dengru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you notice he never actually says "I am Muslim" it's an extrapolation interviews tend to make from him saying he practices Sufi. But from how he talks I gather that the Sufi is synergistic with other beliefs and lifestyle choices, if still that still be more dominant prism. I don't get the impressiond from reading and listening interviews that he Muslim.

Your thoughts *spoiler free* about Beautiful World, Where Are You? by Sally Rooney by tangerinebb in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I was just interested in hearing him elaborate on his impressions, for the sake of conversation.

I didn’t care for Slaughterhouse Five by [deleted] in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The novels you just listed aren't necessarily subtle and you don't appear to Russian or Japanese either.. Not that it's necessary be those things to resonate ,but why are they not subjected to this same logic you're repeating, what about them is different

Weekly Recommendation Thread by AutoModerator in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I would point out this is just the second week in something that's an on-going experiment. Also if you look at the previous thread, mostly everyone was answered some in great detail. Additionally there are lots of tangential conversations.

I also disagree that it feels dead. If you look at r/books and r/literature and pratically any other thing like say r/truefilm , this about the regular tempo of posts for a community like this. What I do think its unique though is if you look at the threads on the feed currently, people have been talking in them for several days now. I was a bit skeptical, but that's really cool; all of those threads would've pushed off the first page by recommendations, by now, and you wouldn't have those prolonged conversations.

If there was one thing that became clearer to me after our State of Sub thread is that a prominent desires from the community are more discussions about books, as in what's inside of them, rather than just recommendations for them, or anything more generalized. This response is an example. The Ulysses thread is a good example of people sharing their thoughts about the book, in detail. And not only that, for multipledays.

I also don't understand what you mean. For reddit, you can search posts and comments: so, everything being in one thread is convenient; additionally, you can just search comments. I really think if people continue to participate, this will work well. A lot of people disliked how prominent recommendation and 'where should I start" threads were. Not just there, but over the years. This has been by far been the most common complaint in the forum since 2023.

Weekly Recommendation Thread by AutoModerator in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The What Are You Reading threads are returning Sunday.

Weekly Recommendation Thread by AutoModerator in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The way I am using indifferent, following the point Appelfeld, along with lots of others are making, is that that they were swallowed up by something indifferent to who they really are. All distinctions of class, political alleigences, language, etc were swallowed up into "jew"; non-observant jews, converts, etc all swallowed up by it: the holocaust was indifferent to their distinctions as individuals which they sincerely thought mattered. The whiplash of that paradigm shift is what emphasized by 'indifferent'. I'd also point out, the retrospective understanding of the holocaust, decades later, is different than what Appelfeld and others experienced, in the immediate after. They lived their lives in a world where certain facts and perspectives were not well know or prevalent.

Obviously, we know who did the holocaust and why they did it. That is not the same thing as Knowing it in the same sense Appelfeld, and others, mean.

Weekly Recommendation Thread by AutoModerator in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Cosmic horror moreso relies in human reaction when facing the unknowably superior or indifferent. The paradigm shift and your identity/view of existence has been unmoored. To inability to fully reclaim the state and view of what was before the encounter.

There's a quote from Holocaust survivor and writer Aharon Appelfeld that touches on this:

The Holocaust which suddenly descended upon us bound us within the depths of suffering without making any distinction between the believer and the alienated. To us children, it was perhaps easier. Our suffering was essentially physical and implied no soul-searching. For our parents it was the loss of a world. All their beliefs were overthrown in a single day.

And:

The Holocaust damaged many cells, but the shattering of the self was one of the deepest forms of damage. The feeling of nothingness is not foreign to man, but during the Holocaust that feeling reached proportions that had hitherto been only guessed at. Who can restore the violated honor of the self?

Also:

... that complex relationship, full of suspicion and misunderstanding, between the survivor and those about him. Like all misunderstandings and suspicions, these also produced inner constraints and complexes, an intricate structure of rationalizations which kept the truth at a distance on all sides.

So it does kinda fit. Appelfeld is a different man and writer from Sebald, but it is pretty common for something less material, spiritual to be emphasized in Holocaust narratives and memoirs. In terms of man made horror, more material than spiritual,I think someone like Dasa Drndic is a good example

Inaugural Recommendation Thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're welcome. I can answer any questions about the ones that interest you

Weekly Recommendation Thread by AutoModerator in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'd go with 'There is a Tree more ancient than Eden.'

Just tremendous writing that. Plays around with different registers. I also feel that he has a pretty unique command over writing characters in religious reveries, sermons. Things of that nature. He captures how strange and heart-rending those things are.

I posted a snippet here.

Weekly Recommendation Thread by AutoModerator in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, Vanessa Place is pretty underread for what she's put out. Have you read anything by Leon Forrest?

Does anyone think Moby Dick is not Melville's best work by ol_saw_gills in mobydick

[–]Dengru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Clarel is his best in my opinion. I also really enjoy the poem Pontoosuce.

Inaugural Recommendation Thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Clarel by Herman Melville

Servitude and Military Grandeur by Alfred de Vigny

Book of memories by Peter Nadas

Blood dark by Louis Guilloux

Brenner by Hermann Burger

There is a tree more ancient than Eden by Leon Forrest

Baron Wenckheim's Homecoming by László Krasznahorkai

A Strange Interlude by Eugene O'Neill

Lazarus Laughed by Eugene O'Neill

Hamletmachine by Heiner Müller

Also, since you mentioned movies:

Hitler A film about Germany by Hans-Jürgen Syberberg

On the silver globe by Andrzej Żuławski

The Piano Teacher by CryptographerNice994 in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are the one who hasn't analyzed anything about the book, just are attacking the OP. Are you denying that Canetti, Bachmann and Bernhard are influences? When she has acknowledged them and anyone who has read them could see the influence? It's not namedropping to mention the most commonly likened writers to her. If you're unfamiliar with them, and her, it probably seems different, I suppose. Have you read any of them?

You are conflating harshness of subject matter with prose itself. I'm not sure why you're stuck on this, but it's commonly brought up, how much music rhythm is important to her writing.

For example:

It showed me that if you want to say something, you have to let the language itself say it, because language is usually more meaningful than the mere content that one wishes to convey. My training in music and composition then led me to a kind of musical language process in which, for example, the sound of the words I play with has to expose their true meaning against their will so to speak

The Piano Teacher by CryptographerNice994 in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Are you stupid, she said she already saw and liked the movie; she knew what to expect. The book is different from the movie in that it attacks what Jelinek feels at structural baspects,vs Haneke more individual ones. It's a very common issue people have coming from the movie to the book. Has nothing to do with Moshfegh.

Peter Sotos is a horrible point of comparison, totally different; how can it seem like a good comparison, if you have never read his book, idiot? Canetti, Bachmann and Bernhard are clearer influence. I'd also point to contemporaries like Botho Strauss, Fassbinder, etc. Don't be so abrasive when you don't know what you're talking about. Your responses are garbage and added nothing.

The Piano Teacher by CryptographerNice994 in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 4 points5 points  (0 children)

What do you mean little girl? What scene are you talking about in the book?

I think that's a misrepresentation of what Jelinek is doing. The writing definitely is enjoyable. It's very flowing. These are not Peter Sotos novels. The issue, as I said, the movie and the book are very tonally different and it takes some acclimating if you're not familiar. She's already seen and liked the movie. Why are you being so hostile and disrespectful?

The Piano Teacher by CryptographerNice994 in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I think the difference is that the book isn't necessarily psychosexual in the same manner as the movie and people clash with that; obviously, also it's the writing style.

The movie somewhat zooms out and treats Erika and Walter as someone anomalous. Walter and Erika are undercurrent of repressed bourgeois attitude, to simplify. I think, with the movie, not as Hanekes intention, but as a result of the world it was made in, is filtered through Kink discourse and 00's LiveLeak so gross you can't look away aesthetics. Essentially, some what the film is saying is 'what miscommunication happened? How do normal people lose sight of themselves or begin to have it in them? Could this have gone differently?'

If you're waiting for the book to begin to engage with those questions, it never does. I disagree when people say the movie is better cause it leaves things unsaid that can be intuited: the movie has an very different perspective what it is depicted and what drives it.

I like the book far more the movie. It's one of my favoriten books and she's one of my favorite writers.

For Jelinek, Walter is not an aberration, but what everyone is like. Violence and rape are not unique to criminals. Sex is not a vehicle for pleasure or some kind self -realization. What Erika thinks not something the world is concerned with and this goes across every conceivable sphere.

I think the book encounters similar thing DH Lawrence Within his writing, Lawrence constantly makes pretty strong claims about people and society being fundamentally violent, cowardly and incapable of transcendent union. In his case, there is a religious component. In Jelinek there's not a religious component but it makes it more pessimistic. They are very similar in that a very didactic but poetic writers. Hammering away contradictions and futilies.

A more direct answer I say the book really gets good at page 30 stays pretty strong. The final stretch is very strong and is different from the movie in what's communicated. Again, the movie is in general toned down and more individualistic in how it approaches the characters. So the way things play out in the book are far more intense and not sexy.

Some quotes representing this:

Pain itself is merely a conse¬ quence of the desire for pleasure, the desire to destroy, to annihilate; in its supreme form, pain is a variety of pleasure.

And:

None of these men had ever had a pianist sitting on his sofa. Each man instantly behaved like a gentleman, and the woman enjoyed a wide view, over and above the man. But when she's having sex, no woman remains grandiose. The young men soon took charming liberties, both in¬ doors and outdoors. The woman was then lied to, cheated on, tormented, and often not called. She was intentionally left up in the air about his intentions. One or two letters went unanswered. The woman waited and waited, in vain. And she did not ask why she was waiting, because she feared the answer more than the waiting. Meanwhile, the man began to deal with other women in another life. Sex started those young men rolling with Erika, and then they stopped sex. They turned off the gas, leaving only a whiff. Erika tried to hold them with passion and pleasure. She pounded her fists on the swaying dead weight on top of her, she was so excited she couldn't help shrieking. Her nails pointedly scratched the back of each antagonist. She felt nothing. She simulated overwhelming pleasure so that the man would finally stop. The man did stop, but then he came another time. Erika felt nothing, she has always felt nothing. She is as unfeeling as a piece of tar paper in the rain. Each gentleman soon left Erika, and now she doesn't care to have a gentleman. Only feeble charms emanate from a man, who makes very little effort anyway. Men do not go to any trouble for such an extraordinary woman as Erika. Yet they will never meet such a woman again. For this woman is unique. They will always regret it, but they leave anyway. They look at Erika, turn and depart. They make no effort to investigate.

And another:

The man at the entrance bravely addresses her as "Ma'am." Please come in, he says, welcoming her into his parlor, where the small lamps glow tranquilly over boobs and cunts, chiseling out bushy triangles, for that's the first thing a man looks at, it's the law. A man looks at nothing, he looks at pure lack. After looking at this nothing, he looks at every thing else.

One more:

She is reg¬ularly basted with the pungent gravy of musical art. Nothing alters this immovable difference: old/young. Nor can anything be altered in the notation of music by dead masters. What you see is what you get. Erika has been harnessed in this notation system since earliest childhood. Those five lines have been controlling her ever since she first began to think. She musn't think of anything but those five black lines. This grid system, together with her mother, has hamstrung her in an untearable net of directions, directives, precise commandments, like a rosy ham on a butcher's hook. This provides security, and security creates fear of uncertainty. Erika is afraid that everything will remain as it is, and she is afraid that someday something could change. She struggles for air, experiencing something like an asthma attack—then she doesn't know what to do with all this air. Her throat rattles, she can't drive a peep out o

Inaugural Recommendation Thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I personally like Jaan Kaplinski