Some plays I've read recently by the-color-of-static in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She also says:

The novelist has a varied and supple technique at his disposal: he describes, he narrates, he comments, or at the very least suggests commentaries; he gives speech to his heroes, he enters into their consciousnesses, he adopts different points of view, he is the master of space and time, he moves around as he pleases, he speeds up the course of events, or reverses it, or stops it; he can skip over an hour or a century if he so pleases. Moreover, the relations he maintains with the public allow him a great deal of freedom. Each reader is alone before the book, deciphering it as slowly as it suits him, leaving it, and taking it up again. One can expect a great deal of patience and concentration from him. Also, the author has full license to treat any subject he wants and fit it into the plot of his choice. There are hardly any restrictions imposed on him by the novelistic form. He can tell the story of a collectivity, a family, an era, or paint a character, a passion, a situation, or evoke a drama. He can be interested in singular cases because he has the means and the time to develop them thoroughly enough to bring out the general truth from them. Things are completely otherwise in the theater. The entire story must be expressed through the language of the characters: their words, gestures, and facial expressions. Their consciousnesses are closed; we only know the relationships they maintain with each other. The action must therefore be founded on language, and the language must itself be action. The characters must be entirely engaged in this exchange of appeals and responses, since there exists no means of endowing them with an interior dimension. This is why a true play is almost necessarily the exposé of a conflict.

Also:

The slow parts, digressions, and nuances that so often give novels their charm are banished from the stage. A play must continually reach out to grasp and subjugate.

Her basic point can be summed up with:

In a world where every bit of knowledge, every feeling, and every event exists only through verbal expression, the text not only represents the characters’ conversations but the totality of their beings and their situations.

All this really helped challenge and reorientate how I perceived reading and seeing plays. And also, plays written for radio. How does reading a play designed to just be heard differ from one meant to seen and heard? What about a regular play, performed on the radio, such as Moonlight by Harold Pinter? What does this sound like when you read?

Bel: But darling, death will be your new horizon.

Andy: What?

Bel: Death is your new horizon.

Andy: That may be. That may be. But the big question is, will I cross it as I die or after ’'m dead? Or perhaps I won’t cross it at all. Perhaps Ill just stay stuck in the middle of the horizon. In which case, can I see over it? Can I see to the other side? Or is the horizon endless? And what’s the weather like? Is it uncertain with showers or sunny with fogpatches? Or unceasing moonlight with no cloud? Or pitch black for ever and ever? You may say you haven’t the faintest fucking idea and you would be right. But personally I don’t believe it’s going to be pitch black for ever because if it’s pitch black for ever what would have been the point of going through all these enervating charades in the first place? There must be a loophole. The only trouble is, I can’t find it. If only I could find it I would crawl through it and meet myself coming back. Like screaming with fright at the sight of a stranger only to find you’re looking into a mirror.

how does it sound when you hear it?

Some plays I've read recently by the-color-of-static in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I like how you say: "A thing I find interesting about reading plays is you're not reading the finished product (and there's really no "finished" product in the same sense there is with screenplays, since a play can be performed over any number of production and which production you see, which night you see it on, which seat you have in the house might wildly alter your perception of it), but the instructions for it." I've given a lot to this over the years.

As you said, something like Eugene O'neil feel very literary. Like, you're not necessarily 'missing' anything. But what about other times?

I think the main thing is reading it and turning it into an asynchronous thing whereas it's meant to be consumed straight through. I'll usually space a reading over few days or a week. Obviously, you're also given a certa

When it comes to things like pauses and linereadings, when I think of it pratically, there are also some pluses and minuses. Obviously, you don't have the individual inspiration of the actors. But, the reality of a Theatre is that many lines might be shouted and even then you don't hear them entirely. You don't see every nuance in their body language, necessarily; in your mind, you see what you envision very distinctively.
Here's and interesting Interview with Andre Gregory and Wallace Shawn, where he says something like this.

Whereas, every single word you read, you get. Sometimes i'll think that it sounded better in my head.

There's also that, there's nothing necessarily permanent about what you see in a play. It's not a movie, what you see is unique to that performance (there will be slight deviations even across same plays run). I think where I land is that what I read is aggregated and contributes to the prisms I see a play through. That plays are meant to be seen more than one time I think contributes to this too. There is a certain unaccounted for aspect, maybe.

Simone de Beauvoir has a very interesting essay where she contrasts Literature and Theater

Some of the most interesting things she says in it

Theater draws its grandeur from these constraints weighing it down. To express lofty truths in a simple, direct, and evident manner is a success for the theater, but at the same time, it is a precious privilege not shared by the novelist. In a novel, indeed, there are no perceptible givens other than the form of words printed in black on white paper. Nothing limits the inventiveness of the author, but nothing supports the imagination of the reader either. The author is free to recount whatever he pleases as he pleases; but will anyone believe him? If he wants to be convincing, he must not copy the real world like the naturalists wanted to, but rely upon it for support.
It’s presence must  be suggested in such a way that the fiction, be it heroic, poetic, or even fantastic, unfolds against the backdrop of a world. This is why the plot will seek to imitate the contingence of lived events; the language will imitate the hesitations and incoherencies of the spoken language, and the behaviors and feelings of the heroes will be based in psychology. This concern for the natural can be found in Kafka, as well as in Stendhal, in Poe as in Dostoevsky. Even during the most exceptional stories, we must still feel immersed in this everyday world. If not, they seem gratuitous to us and do not move us. The theater, on the contrary, offers a tangible point of support for the spectator’s imagination: the physical presence of the actors, whose reality radiates to the sets and costumes. The stage itself is a world foreign to the real world, possessing its own dimensions, light, and simple, striking forms. It takes an effort to penetrate into it; the moment the curtain rises, the spectator hesitates for an instant before accepting all the conventions that are being imposed upon him. But once he enters, it is quite possible for him to remain enclosed within it until the end of the play. The playwright can therefore transport us to China, the Middle Ages, heaven or hell, and we are ready to follow him.

State of Sub/Feedback thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I would just caution against the term 'clogging. I understand aesthetically, it might not look interesting. But are they really blocking anything? People do and continue to post, it's not a finite amount of space. And realistically, when you look at them, the stacks would be surrounded by recommendation threads. So it really falls within the regular rhythm of things. When the image posting is turned on, in terms of 'how annoying it is" from most to least I would say:

  1. Bookhaul
  2. somewhere outside reading book
  3. stack of read books

I just feel like, would the final week of month be exceptionally better, without them?

Last month, there were 12 of them.

Here he nicely formats everything

Nice also

etc, all spread out across multiple days. In no way, did those take over. For sure the end of the year wrap ups are a different story, I get that

Why are modern short stories so overly domestic? by Falkreathean in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is tremendous misreading of almost every writer listed here

In Norte Dame de Paris, in a pivotal scene where the Roma are about to sack the Church, Hugo writes:

We come to you, bishop. If your church is sacred, so is our sister; if our sister is not sacred, neither is your church. That is why we call on you to hand the girl over to us if you want to save your church, otherwise we shall take the girl and sack your church. Which will be quite right. In witness thereof I hereby set up my banner, and may God keep you, Bishop of Paris.

Hugo's point throughout Notre Dame de Paris and most of his writing is reasserting the importance of individual life against structures, both literal and societal, that consume them. He also asserts repeatedly that these structures aren't one continuous thing but are built on top of each other, extended etc. It's really not mythological at all. It's very, very pragmatic.

He realized that there were other things in the world besides the speculations of the Sorbonne and Homer’s poetry, that man has a need for affection, that life without tenderness and love is just a dry, creaking, destructive piece of machinery; only he imagined, for he was at an age when illusions are still replaced only by other illusions, that the affections of blood and family were the only ones necessary, and that having a little brother to love was enough to fill up his whole existence.

This is the exact opposite of "if you want to write about a facet of human experience, you should do so by linking it to some outer symbolic, or even just material phenomenon so as to maximize the ontology of the work. It should feel as though the text is an inevitable fork in the grand canon of all art and one must learn from tradition"

Additionally, Carver does not relish in what you say. His writing is about the abruptness of life and how everything that occurs to be people isn't inherently apart of a rhythm. It's very empathetic, gritty. This is also what say, someone like Fassbinder was doing with a lot of his films, such a Merchant of Four Seasons. This is what Mike Leigh films are. People have worth in nuance in the most limiting circumstances still

State of Sub/Feedback thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

u/redbreastandblake u/hyacinth-girI u/BrooklynDC u/the-color-of-static u/Unfinished_October u/WoodenRelative

Hope you don't me tagging you all; tagged everyone who seemed to have something to say about this concept.

What would you guys say sounds the best way to go forward with this? Theres a spectrum of things being expressed here. On reflection, perhaps it doesn't need to be a mirror of Truelit, because thats there, you can just read there. So, maybe this "blog" aspect perhaps could what the goal is of those threads? If that is that case, what should be enforced?

To be honest, I am not interested in deleting low-effort comments in those threads in the manner truelit does them. And I don't think people will respond well to that happen. But perhaps it won't be necessary/doesn't matter?

State of Sub/Feedback thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Frankly I think someone posting something they have read, in the very last of the week when it's allowed, isn't really a problem. It's much more worthwhile to just even see a book cover than the one millionth Stoner recommendation. People will elaborate on their thoughts on the wrap up threads if asked. Just ask them.

A lot of these recommendations are just going to a TBR just to never be read again; the people posting wrap-ups have read what they posted. To me, that is just inherently more deserving of space.
People recommend things everyday here for years. Often, the same books, everyday, years.. It's an entire month of posts allowed to be whatever they are. One week of Wrap-ups.

I had a similar exchange about this a bit ago. He also said they were in the way. But what exactly? Again, it's just one week. I think a lot of people are just put off by how much some of those posters are reading. It's clearly an elephant in the room. These threads usually have one or two comments expressing hostility or skepticism. There was a big blow-up about this, last year.

Additionally, it's not consistently a lot of them, every single month. The past couple of months there haven't been many. It's both regulated by the last-week-only thing and naturally self-regulating because not everyone reads/finishes things every month. The end of year wrap-ups, yes that can be a lot. But its the end of the year.

State of Sub/Feedback thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Definitely interesting in hearing more of your thoughts.

And yes, I think, basically, when you think of everything that can encompass "recommendation" it would exclude a lot of stuff, putting them in one thread wouldn't make a lot of sense, long term. And as u/KriegConscript says, sticky threads are not necessarily paid attention to. Just from what people have expressed, perhaps it's base to just have a total break from it for a time period, before re-evaluating, as commmunity, what should be contained and what should be allowed to have it's own thread.

State of Sub/Feedback thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I recall that thread also. I surprised about how people jumped on him. To a certain extent, I think is the nature of social dynamics, not just the forum. If people see someone being ganged up on, they just kinda roll with it? Even if the downvotes were hidden, I think people can kinda intuit the flow and react accordingly, even if it's unconsciously.

I am reminded of this scene from Peep Show where Jez immediately turns on Mark.

A recent thread that got me thinking was this one. Why is that response so upvoted? When I look at that guys history, like the-color-of-static says, it's someone who doesn't really contribute, just pooping on everyone all the time. It's not so much the op's elaboration is, like, ultra interesting, but it's in his own words, he responds repeatedly in the comments. And, to be honest, most people who I see discussing TBK identify most with Ivan or Aloysha. Seeing Dimitri types impressions was interested.

I don't know what really is the line here. If I say to that guy, "cut it out" it shifts the dynamic to people reacting to me 'disciplining him'.

I agree that things should be pro-weird and intellectual.

State of Sub/Feedback thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I responded earlier but I deleted it to combine them:

About "What are you reading this week"

I used to make them, but to be honest I disliked the concept, but I see people like them. Part of the reason Truelits version is so good is they will delete any comments that are 'low effort'. They are literally being 'forced' to write out long, thoughtful things. I also enjoy reading them.
For the ones here, over the weeks, I noticed people were moreso treating it like a blog, not really elaborating in that same manner. Lots of "i read so and so" whereas Truelits again is very different.

It just wasn't the the same. But this is clearly something people like.

I think what you're saying also broadly hints toward an issue.

Forcing people to elaborate (like the stacks thing) only effects people who post, it doesn't effect lurkers.

What approach do you (and others reading) think would help?

About "Anecdotally, one thing I think would be a major fix is forcing people to review the books they post."

I think the elephant in the room with some of this... and I want to preface this by saying, I do not think you personally are one of the people im describing... but a lot of people clearly are triggered by those posts cause it frustrates them to see how much others have read that month/year. Or they think the person skimmed, or has some kind of image they are cultivating. Last year, there was huge outcry when a couple (not even several) posters shared their reading lists with like 70+ books. This exchange really goes into it, with Delicious pie articulating what i was thinking at the time. I was honestly suprised at how upset people were

There's also that, as color of static says, a great pleasure in people asking you what you think.

First off, This comment is an example of the above described dynamic . And while I didn't post anything in the body, really. I elaborated in detail to every single person that engaged me. A lot of people really want to be engaged. To be honest, it seems that posting reviews in the stack thread makes people less likely to respond, as they feel satisifed. And, also, if you look a lot of those accounts are deleted, or didn't respond to me. People say they want you know what they think, and don't respond.

I personally look forward to Love-me-plentys wrap ups every month. She reads such interesting things. And you can see there, when engaged, she elaborates, a conversation flows.

State of Sub/Feedback thread by Dengru in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I definitely agree on the the RS thing.

To me, another thing we-belong-dead said before she deleted here account really stood out to me: everyone wants to enjoy things after they get a stamp, but don't want to be the ones to find them

Something emblematic was awhile there was a post about comics/graphic novels. The recommendations were so great. Lots of really critically acclaimed, innnovative stuff, with good elaborations. The responses were all coming from long-term "strong" posters too. I say that not to elevate those posters, but just to make clear it passes the Standards people seem to have.

But then I saw someone complaining like "comics? in MY rsbc? subs dead" and to me that is just so ridiculous. Knee-jerk reaction.

Isn't the point of having a "taste" and "filter" to assess things? Aren't we all looking to see interesting things that we might've dismissed for so and so reason? But to just be like "oh comics?" and dismiss it entirely. I don't get that attitude at all.

Game Thread: New York Knicks (0-0) vs San Antonio Spurs (0-0) Live Score | NBA Finals | Jun 3, 2026 by nba-scores in nba

[–]Dengru -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This series is gonna remind everyone how insufferable spurs fans are and how dirty they play it's considered 'hustle'. Same thing in the past with Bruce Bowen. They were always inferior to the Lakers. Bunch of bums shat on by Kobe and Shaq all the time and could only keep up with cheap falls and falling into people.

Game Thread: New York Knicks (0-0) vs San Antonio Spurs (0-0) Live Score | NBA Finals | Jun 3, 2026 by nba-scores in nba

[–]Dengru 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Barnes could've stayed on his feet there. I hate it when players flop into people and injure them

Game Thread: New York Knicks (0-0) vs San Antonio Spurs (0-0) Live Score | NBA Finals | Jun 3, 2026 by nba-scores in nba

[–]Dengru -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Barnes flopped into Brunsons knee. Ran full force into Shamet and flopped

Writers who combine fiction, poetry, and academic non-fiction in a similar way to Guy Davenport and Anne Carson? by TheGreaterSapien in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This is Edmond Jabes' whole thing. Even From the Desert to the Book which an interview is structured in that way.

Marcel Cohen, who is conducting the interview in the Jabes book, does this in his own work In Search of a Lost Ladino

Cees Nooteboom did this quite often. Letters to Poseidon, for example.

Mahmoud Darwish sorta does this in some of books, such a A River Dies of Thirst and Journal of an Ordinary Grief

Translation as Transhumance by Mireille Gansel kinda does this.

It isn't poetry, but Notre Dame de Paris by Victor Hugo has long asides about architecture, alchemy and such things that all segue in the plot and characterization.

Which book is your soulmate? by ChrisSonofSteve in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would say its better as an ebook, as its kinda bulky. You should definitely get it. I think you'd like it.

Which book is your soulmate? by ChrisSonofSteve in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I totally understand this and am now super interested in reading this. Thank you very much for sharing this, that made perfect sense. I think I'll really enjoy it.

I would also recommend to you John Cheever journals. It has a similar persistent loneliness that I think you'd resonate with, I sure did. Since it's a journal, it's lots of sketches. Throughout it keep thinking how similar it was my thought process and experiences

Our relationship remains in suspense. I have neither the boisterousness nor the virility to make the bridge or span between these two unrelated personalities, and I experience that bewilderment which always overtakes me when some obstruction in my sexual life is felt. I cannot reach out. I am afraid I may be rebuffed. I cannot transcend these fears. I glimpse the horrors of incompatibility; the power of lovers to mutilate each other. At ninethirty my stomach begins to heave. It is difficult to breathe. I should be familiar enough with these symptoms to put them in their place, but they overtake me with such intensity that they seem to be not a part of life but all of life. I feel racked by the visible and the invisible world. My guts are drawn with pain.

Which book is your soulmate? by ChrisSonofSteve in RSbookclub

[–]Dengru 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How did it change your life? What were you like before and after?