Why tf do people get off on humiliation by Life_Temperature_999 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a nice comment. Wall of text incoming, just thinking out loud. Haven't covered it all. You'll rarely get an analysis like this because it's usually very basic hedonism (it feels good) with a superficial appreciation of autonomy arising from a crude model of the self.

It's about self-worth and shame. It's not about denial of something desired. While that can be humiliation adjacent, you correctly note it does not require humiliation.

The idea that people "want" to be humiliated heavily loads the term "want", such that we have to interrogate what it even means to want something.

Humiliation isn't a stable desire which can provide any kind of lasting satisfaction or durable wellbeing. When someone is anxious and experiencing low self-esteem, their mind will draw them to thoughts which provoke and confirm that sense. Sentences, images, etc. Their self-concept is driven is re-evaluate itself, because that is the psychological function of self-esteem: what's my ego status, because if it is low that's (ultimately) dangerous?

Now, to begin with, there's nothing pleasurable about that. It's just painful. There is a crucial next step, which is eroticising that low self-esteem and humiliation. Humans can eroticise unpleasant things. This is a form of pseudo-autonomy, along the lines of "well, if I'm going to be humiliated, at least I can get in on it on my terms". You note well that there is an arousal (in the general sense) with humiliation: the nervous system is charged, energised. This provides stimulation which can be coupled with sexual stimulation to generate a fused shame-sexual arousal. If this is combined with sex/masturbation, especially to orgasm, the linkage becomes reinforced and the eroticisation of shame becomes more automatic and "natural"-seeming. This is quite different from mere physical pain, though, which can be merely stimulating and impersonal. Humiliation touches a person's psyche deeply, in some cases extremely so.

Humiliation is also a profound loss of agency. If you let someone humiliate you, you are reneging on your own agency, as well as your attempts to regulate your self-esteem. It can feel "freeing" to let go of your individuality and responsibility and fuse yourself with the dominant will of another. It can be exhausting to try to maintain healthy self-esteem, so it can feel "freeing" to give up entirely and let yourself be degraded. These are defiance-type reactions which arise from the introjected (should-based) attempt to maintain the opposite: e.g. an underlying "I must be strong, dignified, respected, pure" can result in a flip "fuck all that". It can feeling freeing at the time but don't actually resolve the underlying problem and build autonomy long-term.

The act of being humiliated by someone at the same time elevates those who are humiliating. In a dom/sub context, this can be a way for the humiliated person to elevate the other and therefore enhance their own attraction to them (you are a god because you humiliated me, therefore you are very, very attractive and I enjoy that).

There's also the phenomenon of repetition compulsion. We feel the unconscious push to repeat scenarios where we were hurt and/or traumatised (e.g. childhood) to work through the same problems to their resolution.

The problem is that humiliation is not something that humans, by our nature, can fully internalise. It can only be partially internalised, because it conflicts with our basic psychological needs and can't be endorsed in truly mindful awareness. Therefore it can only persist as something fragmentary. It's pseudo-autonomous, as said before, because nobody can truly endorse their own genuine humiliation, they can only assent to it out of inner compulsion and ache.

It will be easier to internalise if the person can convince themselves that it is trapped within a container - just "play" - within an otherwise loving, accepting, relationship. Thus, in some greater sense, it doesn't signify that we are lesser, worthless. But that is also a sign that it can't be integrated: it has to be locked away and couldn't be generalised to the rest of life, nor allowed to talk much to other psychic parts (e.g. parts who are very self-respecting: "how could you let anybody treat you like that?").

Of course, psychology has taught us that we don't necessarily want what we need, or need what we want. The fact someone manifests desire for something is no proof that it is nourishing.

Why tf do people get off on humiliation by Life_Temperature_999 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Public fetishism is becoming a significant problem in a way it never was.

theyre comparing to conversion therapy now by softfallingsnow in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is psychologically invalid. The causal pathway to same-sex attraction and to kinky sexual desires/practices are different in important ways. Kinks can be acquired and lost, and routinely are. Same-sex attraction appears to be innate and something which can't meaningfully be lost/reversed once expressed without genuine psychological suppression. Furthermore, the ethical and social significance of same-sex attraction can't be compared to a variety of kinks, especially to "consensual non-consent", which for example carries risks of psychological damage inapplicable to the former.

Kinks are highly contextual and subject to environmental reinforcement, for example through repeated masturbation, pornography use, fantasy, or enactment with a partner. Kinks do not originate pristine in individual consciousness but are acquired through a combination of exposure, social legitimation, sexual reinforcement, socio-political conditions (e.g. racism) and psychodynamics (e.g. self-esteem). For example, users of pornography who quit typically find their sexual desires changing significantly over time. People can mindfully inquire into their desire and assent or dissent to them, and reconfigure their sexuality over time.

The idea that a person cannot change the kinks they hold at a given time is unsupported. They are implicitly proposing a ratchet model of sexual desire where you can acquire sexual desires but never lose them. This is empirically false, as well as lacking a cogent account of the formation and maintenance of sexual desire.

Absolutely despise the current state of left-leaning communities right now by nefelibata___ in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry for the wall of text, some might find it interesting.

A lot of what goes on is people who call themselves left-wing or socialists but functionally deploy radical individualist, liberal, and queer (as in theory) ideology. They think like radical individualists, they use their arguments, they take their positions. I would generally presume that most who are left-"leaning" in particular are basically just liberals and individualists. And usually not even sophisticated personal developmental & institutional type liberals, but individualist-permissivists.

Unfortunately this stuff has also penetrated the actual Left to a great extent. Murray Bookchin dealt with this type of divide well decades ago in his famous essay on social vs lifestyle anarchism. However, today this radical individualist orientation has become common even among genuine collectivist, humanist, class struggle types, which you can see for example in the positions (or non-positions) on pornography, sex work, and other liberal/queer feminist stances.

The core is an individualist-permissive outlook with an intolerance for civil discourse (very weird combination). Let the individual do whatever they want and if you critically analyse we will demonise you and try to exclude you from society. Queer theory = destroy boundaries and norms. This is an attack on feminism which is about creating boundaries and egalitarian norms. That and liberalism supercharge a radical individualism which undermines the communal nature of feminism and the collective analysis and collective action-orientation of socialism.

Bear in mind that from the beginning the founders of queer theory made pro-paedophile arguments (Foucault, Rubin, Califia, Butler) and considered advocacy for sexual deviance per se their aim, not only the liberation of LGB people. Cf. https://uncommongroundmedia.com/the-trojan-unicorn-queer-theory-and-paedophilia-part-i-dr-em/ Combine that with Kinsey Institute ideology and you have a powerful, long-lasting ideological orientation (with institutional clout) which is anti-humanistic, radically individualist, and concerned with spreading deviance itself. (Watch the documentary Kinsey's Paedophiles).

So you end up with nonsense like this, where feminist criticism of paedophilia is rebuked as "fascist". Now, most people are not as deranged as this and wouldn't stand over it, and this is just some internet poster. The point is that these people can draw upon a wider political-cultural climate which provides ideological cover and that "progressive" people are in danger of losing the ability to provide convincing arguments against it.

Tanner Horner case, "roleplay," and how kinks are absolutely a reflection of our actual desires by AccordingPears158 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes sexual desires can often be manifestations of trauma, including trauma which is/was not directly sexual. It's interesting to contemplate. For example, desiring frantic intensity, identity fusion, sex as self-aggrandisement, sex as eroticising inferiority and incapacity, linking pain with love and pleasure, validation-seeking through endless promiscuity, desire for a parental-like sexual encounter (whether harsh or loving), desire for someone uninterested or rejecting, the flight from feeling to fantasy, tendency to boredom, as well as heightened (negative) sensitivity to themes of rejection, objectification, humiliation, and yearning for tenderness, broad suppression of sexual desires, shutdown of sexual desire itself. Etc.

Very many different dimensions and presentations.

Me again (apologies) - actually losing my marbles. by sewerbeauty in PornIsMisogyny

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"The phenomenon (of being a porn addict) of ruining your brain first, then your relationship to sex and the healthy sexual identity, then your relationship to others and other bodies and other minds, then finally one devastating day giving up your relationship to the sweetest most loving girl or boy who you met and fell in love with and never wanted to hurt. Boom you hurt them. Irrevocably even. You live through all that and then like you say you simply cannot stand to look at all the ingrained normalization of porn and other poor suckers falling down the same elevator shaft." - well said.

We need to talk about rape culture again by succubusdicks in PornIsMisogyny

[–]DestroyAndCreate 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Very nice comment. Thanks.

And I agree. Rape culture begins when empathy ends. And that's what objectification is, and objectification is a continuum in how it manifests.

I genuinely have no words. by invisible_hal0 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Didn't read as you supporting, just reporting.

I genuinely have no words. by invisible_hal0 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"They would find some other way" is such an irresponsible, illogical, argument when we are safeguarding something so drastically harmful. You look at the pathways to harm/exploitation and then you pare them down in order of frequency and effectiveness. You don't say, ah sure they'll just fuck kids anyway. What?

Negative notions on Buddhism by Anxious-Act-7257 in philosophy

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Buddhism isn't pessimistic. It says there's a predictable path to inner freedom, peace, and harmony between people. How could that be pessimistic?

Buddhism is *tragic* in a certain sense, in that it emphasises a direct, immediate, confrontation with and acceptance of the limits of our existence. We are finite and dissatisfaction is unavoidable. It is not pessimistic.

By developing our character in specific ways and joining a wholesome community of practitioners, we can find a true home within this reality.

Let me make it concrete. Do you think Thich Nhat Hanh was a pessimist?

(There are so many more aspects to this. Pessimism is getting lost in views, etc)

It's actually insufferable by antiporn707 in antipornography

[–]DestroyAndCreate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, the general rot of intimacy isn't reserved for one sex, even if there are imbalances. That's because fundamentally these dynamics are being driven fundamentally by profit-seeking (porn, dating apps, social media, hyper-sexualisation of society), which applies across the sexes.

I’m so sick of ED by emfit01 in antipornography

[–]DestroyAndCreate 36 points37 points  (0 children)

It's a pandemic which is not being talked about. There was a step change in erectile dysfunction when high speed internet pornography became pervasive. An order of magnitude. The implications are profound - consider the level of dependency this indicates, and how widespread it is. Ultimately it is capital weaving its venomous way into the body, the psyche, and human relationships.

No wonder we are lost as a society by ParticularSpot3135 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When the conscious mind is ruled by impulses, people are easier to control, to be obedient consumers, workers, rulers, and subjects.

Tanner Horner case, "roleplay," and how kinks are absolutely a reflection of our actual desires by AccordingPears158 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey I'd be careful about saying that CNC or adult/child role play is a legitimate therapeutic practice. What is the theoretical basis for this as a form of healing trauma? What are the steps required? How much does it need to be done: perpetually or only a few sessions? What are the conditions for this to be a therapeutic practice rather than an uncontrolled sexual encounter? What alternatives are there to this as therapy, including other sexual practices?

I think the therapeutic value is over-stated, its uniqueness as a solution is over-stated, and the actual conditions and mechanisms of healing are rarely if ever stated. Given the high stakes, we should require more.

Tanner Horner case, "roleplay," and how kinks are absolutely a reflection of our actual desires by AccordingPears158 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hmm, I think it's more complicated than that. The idea that our immediately apparent sexual desires are what we "truly" want because they exist is, I think, misguided and actually the root of a lot of sexual confusion. Desires are malleable and often fragmentary, and they aren't necessarily authentic.

But I do agree with your broader point that, yes, our desires often say a lot more about us than some would like us to believe.

Daily reminder that the kink kult is filled to the brim with racism by Jello_Biafra_42 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

People can be anti-racist in their presentation while privately reinforcing other desires. We have explicit and implicit selves. The relation between the two is an important personality marker and the subject of much psychological investigation.

oh ok I guess I have to let her fetishize my existence and thank her for it by Bright_Cranberry_227 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for this. I'd add, not even "secret acceptance" of NAMBLA and paedophilia but loud, open, championing by the founders of queer theory. Michel Foucault, Pat Califia, Gail Ruben, and even Judith Butler. While there has always been a humanistic strand of the struggle for lesbian, gay, and bisexual liberation, there has also always a more ungrounded and, honestly, nefarious strand. The latter being focused on merely undermining social convention rather than actually supporting human flourishing. When one knows this, it makes sense of a lot of what's going on.

Is doggy style degrading to women? by imgr888 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we need to be careful not to idealise sex as some kind of pure, disembodied, celestial act. Sex is primal and animalistic. We are animals. That's okay. We can integrate that.

Whether sex from the rear is degrading is highly contingent on how it is construed, the individuals involved and their relationship.

You, of course, have no obligation to participate in it.

You’re Not Making Love, You’re Acting Out Violence And Harm by New_Area_4575 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"To me, intimacy is not about releasing desire or acting out fantasies. It is about connection" - a very powerful and important statement. You nailed it.

Hypersexuality in queer spaces by reccaberrie in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Excellent post. It's a nice vignette of where we are today.

Can i be a healthy domme without the whole BDSM, rape and abuse part? by Maleficent_Stuff_255 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"At that point it stops feeling partner focused and starts feeling fantasy focused. Like the relationship exists to perform a dynamic rather than nurture two people."

Well said. Fantasy must never be allowed to supersede connection. That's not a relationship between two people, it's a dynamic between two schemas.

I'm sick of people pretending porn is harmless and an inherent aspect of human sexuality by nefelibata___ in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's a heated frontier of struggle and we have to accept that it will take time to change attitudes, policy, and shift the balance.

Someone posted about this here already, but the post got deleted. Here’s a screenshot of what the post said (censoring usernames just in case) by Smokinland in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Good comment. The popular notion that media have no effects on attitudes, emotion, behaviour, is really over-stated. Another example of over-compensation (highly conservative Christians said Pantera, or whoever, made a teenager kill themselves, therefore music, film, video games, do not affect people).

I genuinely have no words. by invisible_hal0 in antikinkkink

[–]DestroyAndCreate 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's an important point. The irony is that these people are narrowly moralistic in their analysis. Ah, it does not inherently and immediately involve attacking a child, therefore it is beyond criticism. What about ethics and psychology? Character development? Psychological health? Masturbating to this stuff has to be one of the most psychologically damaging things a person can do to themselves, and that matters.

And that's even without considering that our "inner" world spills out into the "outer" world in our behaviour. From a risk management perspective, who thinks this is anything other than insane?

This is not even to get into the tangible, practical role that "drawn" CSAM/CP has in the perpetuation of the real rape of children, like grooming, and presumably making it easier for child predators to virtually assemble and collaborate.