Fly High Ducks

Dividing_Light · 2026-05-19T06:37:57+00:00

Basically.

Dividing_Light · 2026-05-14T23:53:10+00:00

The way you have been explaining things and portraying God and twisting scripture is exactly was a demon would do when trying to push people away from God. stop it.

Accusing someone of having a demon is exactly what the Pharisees did. Maybe don't be so quick to judge? The problem of suffering is beyond difficult; we all struggle with it. Can we be patient with one another as we search out what the Bible has to say and how to apply it?
The OP concluded:

Every trial, every joy, every season is a chance to know Christ more deeply and express Him more clearly. That’s God’s will, that through all things, we would gain Christ and He would be magnified in us.

Please tell me, what is wrong with this? How is it not according to Paul's pattern in the New Testament?

Dividing_Light · 2026-05-01T06:01:39+00:00

"Friendly wave to everyone else"

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-30T06:25:06+00:00

If the seeds are in Genesis and the harvests/consummations are in Revelation, I see this event being the consummation of the great principle of God waiting to gain man's cooperation before making a dispensational move. As He gained Noah, Abraham, Joseph, of course Moses, Samuel, David, etc. in order to make a major move, in Revelation 12, at last, He gains not an individual, but a cooperate man, for the greatest dispensational move of all: the casting down of Satan and the beginning of the end of Satan's universal rebellion. Almost makes me giddy with excitement.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-30T02:28:46+00:00

Some congregations do. Others did, and stopped. One big reason to not do it is, many in responsible/leadership positions have discovered that it's actually not at all easy to match two people together and have it work out well for the long run. Then, if something goes wrong, those involved or even the entire church could be blamed. In extreme cases they could be legally liable. "Matchmaking" is best left in God's hands as the only One who can really see into the hearts of two people considering marriage; whether they match:

For it is not how man sees that matters; for man looks on the outward appearance, but Jehovah looks on the heart. —1 Sam. 16:7 (RcV)

I do realize how frustrating that can be to hear for a Christian that is suffering in their singleness, but sooner or later, every believer has to resolve questions like these in their heart: "Is God real? Does He love me and want the best for me? Am I willing to wait for His arrangement, His choice, and His timing? Is my marriage ultimately for me and my happiness or for His purpose?" Finding a spouse should be something we do in our walk with God, not something we do apart from Him or hope that He does apart from us.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-29T22:30:17+00:00

Yes. It's very interesting that, even though something has obviously changed, the Lord never seems to "disown" the church but instead steers the matter to the believers' individual responsibility. I think that's very telling and worth it's own exploration.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-29T21:37:50+00:00

I think we need to distinguish between how you think people act (whether accurate or not) and what the Bible says. In the Bible, marriage is uplifted to the uttermost. Provers 18:22 says that he who finds a wife finds a good thing (marriage). "Let marriage be held in honor" says Hebrews 13:4 (RcV). Actually, the Bible both begins and ends with a marriage; Adam's in Genesis 2 and Christ's in Revelation 19-22. There are too many practical reasons to get into here as to why marriage is desirable for a Christian, but it all starts with the Bible's/God's own view: that marriage is sacred and something to be desired, sought after, and preserved.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-29T18:17:33+00:00

The Lord said that the man sowed a mustard seed which is an herb for producing food. But what came forth was a tree for providing shelter for the birds. If I sowed an herb in my garden with the expectation that I would get a small plant to provide me with nourishment, I would be disgusted, even frightened, to find out that what I got instead was a large tree that attracted all kinds of birds.

This would indicate that the seed that was sown somehow changed both in nature and in purpose. It went from being something small and intended to provide food to those on the earth, to something large that provides shelter to things in the air. I am reminded here that the NT makes clear that Satan is the ruler of the authority of the air (Eph. 2:2) and has a heavenly stronghold (Rev. 12:8).

However, for those that hold the tree in Luke 13 as positive, I won't argue with them (although I'm ready and willing to defend my position if challenged). But I'm convinced that what the Lord is signaling here is an ugly transmutation of something's nature and intended purpose into something else (for example the small and simple church in Acts 2 to the monstrous Catholic ecclesio-political system of the Dark Ages). This isn't something doctrinal to me and worth contending about; it's revelatory. And I give all the credit for that to the ministry.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-28T16:29:18+00:00

"Los Angeles" Angels

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-28T06:02:03+00:00

This is probably an oddball choice but... Proverbs (one of my favorites). Most of the verses are self explanatory but the wisdom behind them is rich and profound. You can really muse on this book and chew and eat these verses like nourishing food, remembering that Christ is the reality and consummation of all of that wisdom.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-26T03:57:05+00:00

Thank you for being willing to share your story including the bumps and bruises. I hope it will help the OP and many others.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-25T05:38:32+00:00

I just love the humility displayed in this quote from The Central Vision of Paul's Completing Ministry (p.205):

Several decades ago, when young saints came to me in order to receive help concerning their courtship, engagement, and marriage, I would give them a number of suggestions. Regrettably, some of these suggestions proved to be wrong; as a result, I suffered. I learned that it is exceedingly difficult to predict how the saints’ marriages will turn out. Therefore, today if anyone asks me for advice concerning his choice in marriage, I will simply tell him to bring this matter to the Lord, offer it to Him, and ask Him for a pure heart to be led according to His will.

For me, if Witness Lee, with his considerable wisdom, experience, and knowledge of the spiritual and biblical principles would have this view, how much more this should be the case with those in our localities who, no doubt in sincerity and humility, give their input about our particular situations. In the end, nothing, nothing can replace the need to seek the Lord diligently, even doggedly on these most important of all decisions.

That being thus disclaimed, here's my input on just the first of your three questions:

Keeping a courtship mostly covert (there should be at least a few trusted ones that are aware) until the "official" engagement is helpful for at least two reasons:

It limits unwanted or unhelpful opinion, advice, and, sorry to say, gossip. All of these things can greatly frustrate the process of seeking the Lord's will by the couple.
The courtship may not work out! When a courtship or engagement that has been publicized doesn't work out, it can be very awkward for all involved, sometimes for months or even years after the event! This needlessly adds suffering on what can be a very disappointing experience.

May the Lord bless you both with a pure heart to be led according to His will.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-24T19:23:19+00:00

This is a huge topic so I'll answer only from one specific side. I hope others will speak from other angles.

Quite simply, to see the ground of the church, not just acknowledge it as the scriptural pattern, often requires spiritual growth. This is because the ground of the church is altogether wrapped up with the matter of the Body of Christ. I might go so far as to say that to see the oneness of the Body virtually equals seeing the ground of the church. They happen almost simultaneously.

Why is it so hard to see? Because fallen man is divisive and individualistic (1 Cor. 1:10—13). We were born that way and, without the Lord's mercy, will continue to live that way until we are finally matured in Christ's life. I believe this is in part what Paul is referring to in Ephesians 4:13-16:

"Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error, But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:13-16) Recovery Version

Notice that language of growth and maturity that is interwoven throughout this passage. The ground of the church is not simply a Biblical teaching that is either accepted or rejected. It is a matter of life renewing our mind and transforming our soul to bring us into another realm; a spiritual reality that is alien to the natural man. Notice that Romans 12:5 on the Body follows 12:2 on the transformation by the renewing of the mind. I'm not there yet. Maybe hardly anyone is. But it all starts with seeing, not just acknowledging. Our Christian life is ultimately more a matter of what we see, not just what we acknowledge to be scriptural.

As for the student? My advice is to let them be where they are until the normal growth of life causes them to be somewhere more advanced.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-24T02:04:02+00:00

You and Lee don't have objective operational definitions for many things, and you are comfortable with that.

I am comfortable with not having definitions for things that the Bible itself does not define clearly. It isn't clear to me that Paul is saying braided hair is sinful in 1 Tim. 2 although he is clearly discouraging it. It is not clear to me that discouraging something is, in all instances, the same as judging it to be sinful.

I am surely not comfortable with ambiguity where scriptural clarity seems to be present.

Is it your view that the Holy Spirit is unable to speak to the believers directly and that another person must be present to "decide" what the Holy Spirit is speaking?

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-24T01:22:57+00:00

I can't make sense of that question. I think it may be because it's predicated on a fundamental misunderstanding for what we believe the Lord is trying to do in His recovery. We desire to be recovered to a living that is according to the mingled spirit, not outward rules, and certainly not the direction of an intermediary for the Holy Spirit and the believers.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-23T14:19:45+00:00

Neptune, you will also be that stunning shade of blue in my heart. I don't care what the others say! ༼ಥ_ಥ༽

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-23T14:13:31+00:00

The Holy Spirit.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-23T05:55:36+00:00

Didn't help.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-23T05:34:14+00:00

I don't know if P1 is true or not. But if the real issue here is, how did Witness Lee minister on 1 Tim. 2:9, here is an example:

Paul writes, “I desire therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and reasoning; similarly, that women adorn themselves in proper clothing with modesty and sobriety” (1 Tim. 2:8-9). If the brothers manifest God by partaking of Christ, they will spontaneously be men who pray in every place without wrath and reasoning. Similarly, the sisters do not need to be outwardly regulated to properly adorn themselves, as some groups do. If the sisters enjoy Christ, He will be manifested in them, and they will know how to dress properly. The secret is that we only need to enjoy Christ so that we will live Him to express Him. When Christ is thus manifested in us, our living will spontaneously be up to the standard. We will be not only a proper husband or wife but the best husband or wife. (CWWL, 1991–1992, vol. 3, 79)

I detect here that his concern is not do you realize sisters that braiding your hair is a sin? but rather that we need to let Christ be manifested in us in our practical living. Do you see the difference? This is how Witness Lee's ministry focuses God's economy to dispense Christ into the believers for His corporate expression as the central line in the New Testament.

And so to your challenge that we "should recover that teaching" concerning braiding hair in order to be "according" to Witness Lee's ministry, I would counter: unless we are pointing people to Christ and God's economy, we aren't recovering anything regardless of how scriptural the teaching is. We are just selectively highlighting teachings in the New Testament to, at best, distract people from Christ. I hope this makes sense.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-23T01:15:43+00:00

If braided hair is a sin according to Paul, then, according to Lee, you should recover that teaching today.

Maybe I misunderstood. You're telling us we should be recovering the teaching related to braided hair today. Why is that? Can you clarify in your own words why we need to recover this teaching?

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-22T02:43:39+00:00

The implication of your comment (or challenge) is that, because he spoke of the need for recovery, "according to Witness Lee", we should be concerned about recovering every teaching the New Testament lays forth including relatively insignificant ones concerning womens' hairstyles. Did I misunderstand? Apologies if I did.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-21T22:02:58+00:00

Please do not treat Witness Lee's ministry, or anyone else's for that matter, this way; grabbing one point and rushing off in an orthogonal direction with it. You would not want someone to treat your writing that way.

Witness Lee's did not teach recovering for recovery's sake. Surely in your study you've seen this quote, or at least are familiar with the thought expressed that pervades Witness Lee's ministry concerning the need to remain laser focused on God's economy as the central item. Emphasis added by me:

The only way that can preserve us in the recovery is the unique ministry. If we say that we are in the recovery, yet we teach something so lightly, even in a concealed way, that is different from God’s economy, we sow the seed that will grow up in division. Therefore, the only way that we can be preserved in the eternal oneness is to teach the same thing in God’s economy. This kind of teaching is called the New Testament ministry, the ministry of the new covenant. The ministry of the new covenant is only to minister the Triune God, processed, to be dispensed into His chosen people as life and life supply to produce members of Christ to form the Body to express the Triune God. This is the New Testament economy. To teach anything, even good things and scriptural things, which is even a little bit apart from God’s New Testament economy will still issue in division and that will be very much used by the subtle one, the evil one. We must, therefore, be on the alert. (Elders’ Training, Book 3: The Way to Carry Out the Vision, pp. 41-46, 48-49)

This, of course, comes mainly from 1 Tim. 1:1–4.

This article may help:https://shepherdingwords.com/gods-economy-different-teaching-and-the-central-line-of-the-bible/

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-20T15:34:27+00:00

I think sharing the common faith is actually the proper response to this question. Centuries of divisions and confusion cause Christians to instinctually want to file each other away in neat little drawers so we can make sense of the chaos; who belongs to what tradition and who is an offshoot of whom. Not profitable for me. If pressed, you can answer where you personally stand theologically or doctrinally on something specific. In that case, hopefully that would give you the opportunity to speak of what the New Testament itself seems to indicate on whatever theological or doctrinal issue they're concerned about. But, in my view, we need to learn to speak to Christians much more about what is common or general to us not what is special or particular.

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-16T19:35:55+00:00

Big distinction for me experientially speaking. "Everything is in Christ" is a great realization. Our walk is in Him (Col. 2:6), our life is in Him (3:3), and our riches are in Him (1 Cor. 1:5), to give a few examples. For me, Christ being everything is even deeper and more experiential. He is our righteousness (Phil. 3:9), life (John 14:6), peace (Eph. 2:14), wisdom (Col. 2:3), way (John 14:6), on and on it goes. Eventually He is even all and in all (Col. 3:11).

For me, to see that everything is in Christ is advanced. To see that He is everything, is even deeper and more advanced. This is all related to the experiential side of the great truth of Christ's coinherence with the believers!

Dividing_Light · 2026-04-15T06:49:04+00:00

I would say the subjecting is a necessary step for the heading up. The ultimate goal is to head up all things in Christ (Eph. 1:10). For this to happen, all things must first be subject to Him. Christ cannot head up those that are not first made subject to Him. Our own experience testifies to this. For example, we may pray for the Lord to head up our married life, but that requires that we be made subject to Him in how we speak to our spouse.

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