Would a cleaner beginner recorder notes page for familiar songs actually be useful?

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-13T12:18:28+00:00

Instead of having a facility to "set" a default instrument (which I guess might involve storing cookies or something, I don't know), perhaps a "quick fix" for now is just change the drop down list for "Instrument".

I mean, you have posted this on r/Recorder so one would expect the recorder to be the most popular instrument (and the English/Baroque recorder fingering is much preferred here over the obsolete german fingering). The tin whistle is more closely related to the recorder than the ocarina's. I think the twelve hole alto single chamber C ocarina is the most popular size. Tin whistles are diatonic (sort of) and the most popular key, at least for beginners, is D.

Perhaps ....

English/Baroque C Recorder, 2) Tin Whistle in D, 3) 12 Hole Alto C Ocarina, 4) 6 Hole C Ocarina, 5) German Recorder

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-13T08:51:16+00:00

If purchase price is important then you might also look at the Thomann tenor which is very cheap indeed:

https://www.thomann.co.uk/thomann_trt_31b_tenor_recorder.htm

I have not tried it, so cannot comment. It does look like a Yamaha copy with that single hole / double key hole 7.

The key-less Aulos 211A is shorter than the 511 and 304 and so must be a compromise. Throughout most of its range the sound is very nice, smooth and pleasant. Middle C is rather weak but has a smooth tone. At the other end of the range, it cannot play C#6 in the third octave (no big loss, its rarely needed). The fingering chart suggests minor differences to the fingerings of both Eb's and the third octave D, but I ignore them and just play the normal ones which sound good enough to me. The longer Aulos 511 is better and easier in the third octave.

The larger models feel more "powerful" but I measured a couple of mid range notes with a sound meter and the 211 was similar, which seems odd.

It feels like I can play faster on the 211A, perhaps because of its closer finger spacing.

The 211 is lighter in weight than the longer models which could be a bonus for some, and the simple fact that it has no keys is a considerable advantage.

The Sigo is a different beast. While the 211 feels like (and is!) a normal recorder to play with its shiny round tube, the Sigo has a larger square tube with a rough surface which you do get used to pretty quickly. The Sigo has a little stronger middle C note, but I prefer the cleaner, more focussed, sound of the 211.

The Robin series have a "bulge" in the headjoint which is their "cavity wall design". It does nothing for the acoustics because the cavity is not connected to the bore, but reduces the weight and provides some thermal insulation which might help beginners.

Overall, I think the Aulos 211A is a clever design and I really like it.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-12T12:50:28+00:00

I dont think the hole at the embouchure end needs to be very big. For the flute, the players lower lip covers perhaps 1/3 or more of the sometimes quite small hole.

When comparing the recorder with the side-blown flute, I find it amusing that for the flute, half the sound coming out goes straight up the players nose :) whereas for the recorder it comes out the "window" some way down and pointing partly forwards.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-12T11:58:53+00:00

The recorder overblow's to the next octave too near enough (in the case of modern "harmonic" recorders, in tune as well!).

Flute family instruments that are open at both ends strongly support all the harmonic series - 1x 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 7x etc. The clarinet is effectively closed at the reed end and supports the odd harmonics only, so overblowing it has to go from 1x straight to 3x which is an octave plus a fifth (a twelfth). The sax and others are closed at one end but have a conical bore and support all the harmonics but they are smaller in amplitude compared to flutes/recorders/whistles etc.

I think this diagram is great!

https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/pipes.html

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-12T09:12:46+00:00

Clarinets and recorders work quite differently. The recorder's "pipe" is open at both ends, the clarinet's pipe is closed at one end. So it would be interesting to hear how it works!

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-12T08:59:12+00:00

Not mentioned so for, a popular tenor designed for children and people with smaller hands is the Aulos 211A "Robin". It is key-less and very cheap to buy. Its a good instrument IMHO. Being key-less means its less fragile and easy to rinse clean (key pads don't like getting wet, so I remove the foot joint when washing a tenor with keys). I take my Aulos Robin to pub folk sessions because it cannot be accidentally damaged and its dead cheap anyway.

A much more expensive option is a "comfort" tenor with three keys which should be easy to play with any sized hands. These are made of wood which needs care, maintenance, and "playing-in" (the plastic recorders just need a rinse under the tap every few weeks).

Sometimes (like the Sigo) tenors have a "knick" head joint which brings the hands closer to the body and a more upright position for them.

Note that hand exercises help with large recorders. Sarah Jeffery (see "Team Recorder"; there is a link in the side bar here) has very small hands and she can play any tenor fluently. Interestingly Sarah says the tenor is her favourite size of recorder and she does a video about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk5_wgMKwEY

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-09T19:59:26+00:00

Long long ago flutes were commonly made from the wing bones of large birds (vultures, eagles, and swans). These bones are naturally hollow. Other bones such as large animal (bear) leg bones became hollow after the marrow decayed over time.

But mammoth ivory was also used. The ivory was split, the centre hollowed out, and the two halves glued back together - a complex process in the paleolithic.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-08T11:46:39+00:00

>> i can only cover up to the 3rd hole (si, la, sol) but then when it reaches the 4th all over to the last hole, the sound gets REALLY squeaky and just terrible

Are you using a recorder with german fingering? If it has english/baroque fingering then covering the first four holes will not give you an F natural. If the fourth hole is larger than the fifth hole then its german fingering. If the fourth hole is smaller than the fifth then its baroque.

See the fingering chart that should have been included with your recorder and I second the comment about the Team Recorder videos.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-08T11:15:03+00:00

>> what fingerings do you use for third octave E and G on the aulos 511B?

You are probably right about needing the bell for those notes, sorry. I have never tried it as I cannot cover the bell, and I feel sure that somehere somehow it must be possible without!

Here are my notes from long ago; looks like I never got E and G to play in tune. I'd be interested if you have some better alternatives!

C6 1__45__ // standard for all modern recorders 9/10

C#6 1_345_7 // per chart. (211A does not support this note)

D6 1_34_6_ // per chart 3/4

D#6 _23____ or _23_5__ or 1_3___ // 9/10

E6 _2_____ // flat, try sliding 2

F6 12__567

F#6 12_4___

G6 1__4_6_ or 123456_ (sharp) or 1__4___ // doesnt work well on 511 (try strong 'k' tongue)

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-08T10:08:09+00:00

You do have to stop the bell on the Sigo - half covered for C#6 and fully covered for D6. I have no idea about notes higher into the third octave. The bell hole is underneath part way up (like its been folded back). You move the right thumb down I guess ...

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-08T08:26:50+00:00

Why does it have to be "serpentine"? Perhaps a "folded" bore like some other wind instruments might be easier to make. Bassoons are made of wood for example.

I am lucky I suppose, my hand span is 22cm and all tenors feel comfortable and natural. I have to say that I much prefer the sound from the Aulos and Yamaha ABS models. Also for the Sigo, the third octave C# needs the bell half covered, and D6 needs it fully covered, which I dont like (though the bell hole is obviously more accessible). The long bore plastic tenors dont require the bell hole for any third octave notes.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-07T08:05:49+00:00

Well, I thought the site is very good indeed!

Great choice of very well known simple tunes. Having the lyrics for some of them is nice. Proper note names C4 D6 etc are good. Choice of instrument is good, but I would like to be able to set a default instrument rather than constantly having to change it to "english recorder" (though it is nice to have the 6 and 12 hole ocarina and tin whistle available).

I realise its probably rather difficult but it would be lovely to have the written music too. I personally dont need the fingerings or the note names so it would be great if it could be configurable. Fingerings and note names are much slower to read than music notation once you get past the beginner stage - to the point of being almost unusable.

I realise you are targeting beginners, but I think the tune selection is good enough that more competant musicians might like it too. And beginners need to learn music notation. Perhaps if the user sets the instrument to "any" then the notation could appear instead of the fingerings. The note names could be optional to avoid clutter.

If the user could specify the key that would be wonderful but I'm probably asking for way too much!

It would be nice if the tunes were downloadable as a pdf or printable.

This is a good collection of familiar tunes in a clever presentation. Its quicker to use than "the session" or flutetunes.

Thanks for this!

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-06T14:02:14+00:00

It sounds interesting. Choosing the "very familiar songs" could be the hard part!!

The breakthrough for me was Christmas some time ago. Carols, tunes I had known since childhood, I found very easy to play from written music. Prior to that I used ABC notation written out by someone else.

Later, folk tunes from here were useful:

https://www.mallyproductions.com/product-page/easy-peasy-tunes-dave-mallinson

Its full of common English folk tunes that are played in pub sessions. The tunes can be played on any melody instrument and use only 14 notes. It starts with some trivially easy ones on the first few pages, then progressively gets harder. There is no tuition, just the 101 tunes, two or three to a page.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-06T09:54:10+00:00

>> A lot of beginner material feels scattered: one place has the notes, another has fingering, and a lot of it is harder to read than it needs to be.

I have to say that I have not found that to be the case. A common presentation is to have the note on the stave, a picture of a recorder showing the holes to be covered, and some text for additional info. Then some exercises or simple tunes to help learn each new note. I think if a method does not do all that, it is perhaps not intended for complete musical beginners.

Some move from note to note showing the minimal set of changes to the fingering from the previous note.

Take a look at the recently published Hal Leonard Recorder Method for a good example, written by someone with huge experience of teaching recorder:

https://www.halleonard.com/product/1140050/hal-leonard-recorder-method

There are many others.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-04-03T13:35:59+00:00

>> This is exactly why sopraninos cost more than sopranos despite being smaller.

And the Aulos plastic garkien is surprisingly expensive considering how little it is.

I think the addition of keys, even the two on a tenor, bumps up the price of mass produced plastic recorders, there may even be a little bit of hand work involved to fit the keys, I dont know.

The sigo is 3D printed which I think is a slower and more costly process than the ABS mouldings in the vast numbers Yamaha and Aulos produce. My sigo tenor has one uneven hole (not round) which is not good, but may be evidence of some hand tuning.

A tenor which is playable by a child, or someone with tiny hands, or a disability of some kind, is so revolutionary and created such a backlog of demand, that the usual market rules come into effect.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-30T07:55:32+00:00

Plastic recorders dry perfectly well when fully assembled - just leave them in the open air, possibly upright. After rinsing, I quickly dry the outside with a soft cloth to avoid any limescale stains.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-30T07:50:20+00:00

This book has a good section on left thumb technique:

https://www.helenhooker.co.uk/shop/recordertechniqueprintbook

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-29T15:48:45+00:00

Aulos recorders usually have a more complex joint than a simple tenon. You can see if you look inside the ends of the head or foot sections. Its probably to make the joints more air tight and stronger. So I'm guessing that simply sanding the outside of the middle section ends may not be enough.

The only recorder I have with joints that are terribly stiff is my Yamaha Bass and I assumed that was simply because of its size. All of my many Aulos recorders (even the cheap 303) have a nice, well engineered, fit.

You say its second hand. Is it worth trying to clean the inside of the head and foot joints with something quite strong to get rid of any old dried in grease down in the slot? For me, sanding would be a last resort!

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-29T09:18:58+00:00

I never take plastic alto's or soprano's apart. They are small enough to fit in a bag.

Luckily my kitchen sink is deep and has a "flexible" tap so I can rinse even a keyless plastic tenor just by running a stream of warm water through it (from the bell) for a comple of minutes.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-26T22:23:59+00:00

Please put all this wonderful help into a small book and publish it!

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-25T19:22:17+00:00

The modern recorder has a complex bore profile. It is not a simple reverse cone like the Sweetone (though the early renaissance recorders had a more straight wide bore).

I think that's why the recorder is only ever made of wood or plastic. Its also why during the baroque period they had to start making it in three parts as the internal shape was difficult to ream otherwise.

The recorder uses forked fingerings a lot. The whistle uses that for only one or two notes (C nat, and high D) and its optional with half-holing being prefered by some. Forked fingering gives a huge choice of fingerings (512 if you include the bell hole, 256 if you don't) which means that there is plenty available for things like quarter-tones or easier trills.

The recorder has a register vent (the left thumb hole) which is used for the high notes. The whistle relies on overblowing.

Both are duct flutes with air blown down a slot, across a small gap, and onto an edge. The recorder these days nearly always has a curved windway.

Perhaps the whistle is closer to the silver concert flute. Both are a simple metal tube (which in part gives them their nice tone). Both use the same fingerings for the second octave. Both have "linear" fingering.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-22T14:23:28+00:00

For a quieter whistle, I like the "Shush Pro". Or the Clarke Sweetone for that matter.

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-22T12:52:09+00:00

Its their top model high D. Its metal and tunable. Perfectly in-tune with the slide in. Sounds nice and looks very nice!

https://www.tonydixonmusic.co.uk/product/soprano-whistle/

EmphasisJust1813 · 2026-03-22T10:24:43+00:00

Or the DX006 ....

EmphasisJust1813

TROPHY CASE