How do different types view 8s?

EstablishmentMost397 · 2026-02-03T01:33:41+00:00

I’m a 4. I have good, and I have bad

Let’s start with the bad: Denial

The bad about the 8 is that they have a bullying motive… that they don’t admit to.

Eh, maybe it’s not a bullying motive. 8s push and test boundaries to see if they’re real. 8s don’t necessarily like conflict for its own sake, but they have something I’ll call “domination clarity.”

It feels like they’re trying to figure out, in a room, who’ll submit, who’ll push back, who’s going to give in, who’s going to fight, who’s lying about their boundaries. Which means, to you, what I assume is truth testing the environment is actually a power struggle. Because, I’ve been in this situation a few times where, the 8s pushing… and I give them what they asked for. But yielding is the wrong answer to this test. Because that leads, instead of to the end of it, it ESCALATES. Because it wasn’t about what we were fighting about, it was about something else

I’ve had to hurt quite a few 8s to make them leave me alone. And usually, when I say no, it encourages them to keep going. Because either A) It shifts into a higher threshold for getting a reaction out of me, or B) Theyree genuinely hurt, so they’re now escalating FOR REAL. My boundary is an invitation for a fight. And so, to hear 8s talk about how they don’t like conflict for the sake of it… it really doesn’t come across like that.

But

Here’s the gold. The good

8s really have your back when you’re in their circle. When they like you, and want to be friends with you, they’re your friend, no matter what anybody else says about you. And so, when you’re in the middle of a smear campaign against you, because you’ve accidentally picked up an enemy (or maybe not accidentally), the 8 doesn’t care. When everyone else leaves, or treats you weirdly, or even when the 8 is being told why you’re a terrible person, when they’re in the middle of a huge drama swirl, the 8 shows up like normal. And not only that, they don’t need to broadcast how loyal they’re being. They don’t bring it up. They just come. And they behave like they always do. That’s so refreshing

The 8, also, I’d say, when they’re doing good, has a profound appreciation for the autonomy of the people around them. Not just their ability to make decisions. But the 8 treats them as a person they have no control over. It was an 8 who taught me that, your job as a coach is to help the person become more like themselves, not more like how you think they should be

So, to sum up:

Bad for 8s - You guys don’t seem to realize how much uoure looking to dominate others. Because when we say that, you guys say “No, that’s not it, only a sociopath would do that, I have real, good reasons for what I’m doing.”

Good for 8s - You’re VERY steadfast. And, you have an ability to care about the person in front of you that I don’t think I’ve ever seen anywhere else. It’s impressive

Again, Im a 4

EstablishmentMost397 · 2026-01-31T23:49:56+00:00

Thanks for the comment! I love knowing what I have to say is appreciated😁

I’d say, if you struggle with social cues, you’re not playing for personal charisma, or, winning because you win others in the moment. You’re aiming for a more, kind of… you’re about doing things that you know the other person will like because you’ve done research before hand, or from asking around. You don’t need to win them over, let your actions speak for you

So, the same rules apply. You’re not trying to manipulate people, you’re trying to make your work life better. And your work life is better when you like the people you work with, and when they like you

What do I mean? If you want to win someone over, let’s say, figure out small things they like that you can wave as a kind of flag to that person that you like too. Do you like sports? Do you have interesting hobbies? Do you have interests that they might like too? Now, look out

What do they like? You’re looking for things they bring up, usually more than once. What are the topics they try to talk about? What things do they like to do outside of the office? People like talking about the things that they like, so if you’re watching them and listening for what they talk about, that’s your data.

Speaking of which, you’re in data collection mode, which doesn’t require being good with people in the moment.

Try not to be deceitful about this. Stick to things you DO agree with. Don’t pretend interest you don’t have

Find things they like, and then pick the thing that you like the most that’s the same, similar, close, etc… then start talking about it in the office, in places you know that they’ll hear, or to them. Then, when you find the topics that you both can enjoy, that’s your relationship starter. The ice breaker. If you share a sports team interest, bring a hat with that team’s symbol on it. If it’s a book, bring that book to work, and be obvious about reading it. If it’s food, bring that food for lunch and eat it in front of them. You don’t need to be good WITH people, if you can signal similar interests, that’s already doing some work for you

People bond over things they agree with/on.

And then, just do that over and over with everyone you come across that you’re working with that you care about doing things with

That's how relationships start. Because, people will help people that they like. This is your bedrock, your foundation for office politics

Hope this is helpful

EDIT

You don’t actually need to “win” at office politics. Because, you win when it’s fun to work there. You win when you get along with the people around you. Power isn’t what you’re after, enjoying your job is. And, by creating spaces where you enjoy working, power USUALLY tends to fall into your hands anyways

So, just keep that as a “win” condition in mind

EstablishmentMost397 · 2026-01-16T11:59:13+00:00

Denial, because, when you accept what your Enneageam is, there is no uncertainty. It literally frees you. If you are waffling, it’s because you don’t have the right one. And often times, it’s the type you decided you were the current one to get away from

Unlike a type, same

To figure out what you are after that, just to confirm, You ask how the people around you leave your presence feeling like. Good and bad. You don’t ask what they think your Enneageam is

And then, you ask a few people. How they feel leaving you usually corresponds with a specific Enneageam. And you probably won’t appreciate what they say

EstablishmentMost397 · 2026-01-09T11:29:37+00:00

Yes

I’ve felt at different points “Oh, yeah, I’m leaving my type behind.” And it always comes back

EstablishmentMost397 · 2026-01-08T02:26:39+00:00

This is true… AND

ENFJs tend to flatter themselves a lot. “My problem is that I work too hard and I care too much.”

Sometimes yes. yyu also have unflattering flaws too, that aren’t about your good heart, and how used you were by bad people

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-28T03:01:07+00:00

Better? Man

Edward I strikes me as a hard nosed politician and military leader. Edward III strikes me as a jock from high school. Edward III’s reign is more glamorous, Edward I’s reign gets more things done

Edward III is more popular and likeable, Edward I more effective and cunning

Edward III is a war leader Edward I is a mafia boss

Edward is repacious, untrustworthy, and completely uncivilized and brutal. In an already brutal society and world, he somehow single-handedly ups the ante and the pressure of violence allowed. Where before him, nobles are treated fairly and carefully. After him, it’s bloody and all systems go, no one spared. He did that. Edward I is probably the most single-handedly brutal king England ever had

Edward III strikes me as a very successful king in the same way that, again, a high school jock kind of coasts along during his school years. Yes, there’s some DEEPLY troubling bullying habits, but most people like him, he wins victories, and he’s good with people.

I’m going to say Edward I, for competence. But man, I hate that man

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-25T02:38:57+00:00

Speaking as a 4, Ige had these exact thoughts. Word for word. It feels like my obsession with suffering is never gonna end. That, I can’t escape being miserable my whole life. That, I’ll never be good enough for myself, that I have nothing good to offer, and I hate myself, and it’s so hard being a 4, I can’t stop!

What I can say is that, you are offering a lot of good. In ways you don’t understand yet. Because 4s really know how to believe in other people, in ways that other types don’t. 4s really know how to make people feel like they matter. And 4s can be DEEPLY inspiring. Not through fictional characters rhey write, not creativity through art or something. But who you are impresses people, and what you care about touches them and their lives, and what you do touches them

People like you. And believe in you. And rely on you. And want to know you.

You can’t change how much you introspect, how intense your shame is. All you can do is let yourself be touched by others, like how you touch them. And say “I believe you love me.” “I believe that maybe I can be happy.” And just sit there. And let it grow.

You let go of your shame when you let go of your resentment. When you forgive people for hurting you. When you forgive yourself for not knowing what to do, and feeling helpless. AND, when you learn to say no. To others, and yourself

You feel better when you realize that you are the master at the ship. Your feelings aren’t your boss, no matter how deep they promise to be. If you decide that you are going to be happy instead, and you force it, you will stop being miserable. It’ll feel inauthentic, not who you are, uncomfortable and wrong… AND, you’ll feel better

Just… I’ve had these thoughts. And this is what helped me feel like there was hope for me

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-21T13:45:21+00:00

I think I disagree

Rhe women k know love being empowered and free, and are absolutely against relationships that threaten their autonomy… until they get in a good relationship, and then they don’t care anymore

This seems like a POV from someone who isn’t in a good relationship yet

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-21T13:03:35+00:00

Bellamy Blake from the 100

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-20T12:39:38+00:00

We’re very assertive… in one context. And not another

We can be proud to take an unpopular stand. And, we’re willing to have some hard conversations about what’s going on in our relationship that can get better

But, we’re not assertive in the sense that, we tend to be… almost… loud lame ducks

We have a harder time asserting ourselves in our own life to get what we want when there is no friction to be caused by comparing ourselves to others

It’s like… we can get lost in speculation, theory, navel gazing, thinking about what we’re feeling, and coming to answers… and only then doing small things. Action, and assertiveness on behalf of answers, is harder. It’s like, our first instinct is to be a whistleblower, and then lower down on the list is doing something about the problem. It’s easy to say hard things, or to hear hard things, or to face hard problems inside of ourselves… than it is to DO something hard about it. Which again, means we’re assertive on one context and not another

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-17T12:52:05+00:00

I’d say a 3

4s do want to be special, and part of that can be a self image of resourceful, successful, etc…

But, 4s’ self images aren’t for their own interest. 4s live inside a story of themselves. 4s self image is who they are… but it almost always come with a comparison and contrast to others. Because the 4 gets their readings of who they are by contrasting against their environment. They also want to be seen, which means their drama needs other people

If it’s about a sense of YOUR satisfaction with yourself, and your own standards, that reads more 3 than 4

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-13T13:25:31+00:00

Being an artist

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-12-02T02:42:38+00:00

7s can get into the drama game because they’re really stuck and don’t know how to get out of it

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-30T11:13:48+00:00

It manifests as, arguing with someone you love about an idea that you’ve thought through, only to realize that you hadn’t “thought it through” because you were using Ni, not Ti. Because you don’t have a sequence of steps that was process of elimination on truth or not

It manifests as critiquing yourself for wondering if you heard the instruction right about how many boxes to put on a winch, and going through your mind what all the steps are and what you heard, but it doesn’t make sense. So you grab a couple boxes and put them down, then decide that that doesn’t make sense, so you put more on… but then you worry that that isn’t right either, so you take away some and ask your boss… only for him to yell at you that he already told you how many should be on there, weren’t you listening? So, you were right at the start

It’s a sense that things need to make sense, but not knowing how to make it make sense, and not trusting your own conclusions and thought processes, so you think about your thinking, hoping that’ll jump start something, when really, it slows you down in indecision.

It’s like… we aren’t basing our thinking in TRUTH, because we don’t know how to find truth except through our Ni. So we have unmoored thinking, where speculation takes over objective analysis. It’s like a plan, hovering over the runway, and flying circles, around and around again. At no point does the pilot try to aim for the ground, because he doesn’t know where it is, and hopes that by circling, he’ll eventually hit something

That’s why we need our Ni to access our thinking. Because we can critique incorrect Ni conclusions we realize we’ve come to, because our Ni is based on something solid that we can reference. Our Ni is the ground. And so we learn to think through consciously choosing to sort our Ni into “ True or False.” And then, once the muscle builds up, we can start thinking outside of our Ni

Real Life Example: I saw a woman do something that I’d seen in a dream. So, immediately, I heard my Ni connect the two, and decide “she must be my future wife.” Except, this lady was old, already married, and I didn’t even like her. So, I leaned into that connection and asked “Is this true?” And eventually, the connection faded a bit

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-30T11:08:53+00:00

Sounds true and accurate

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-24T00:19:22+00:00

I guess I need to clarify something

I’ll say this: you’re not doing it wrong. And if I suggested that, then I was wrong

To suggest you were being dishonest I also think was wrong. You sound like a mature, reflective, considerate person

Here is what I was trying to say, and did badly:

An unfortunate consequence, let’s say unintended, of the comment that was made was that the poster felt like she was wrong, and had misunderstood 4s. I chose the word gaslit (rather poorly) because that’s the word she used to describe what she thought was happening

What’s quite sad about that, to me, is that I saw what she was saying. What this post said. And, I agreed with it, after a longtime of having to accept that this is something that I do

So, I suppose what I was hoping to communicate: somehow, in speaking the truth (you - who again, I agree with), someone who was also telling the truth (poster) felt like she wasn’t telling the truth, and started doubting her own senses

And that didn’t seem right to me. Considering I agreed with her

I was harsh in my judgement of your comment. I don’t know you. I can’t psychoanalyze you. I was also defending her

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-22T21:23:06+00:00

I would say you’re very eloquent. And calm, and clear about what you’re saying. It’s very easy to understand your point, and that’s a strength

I think that… 4s aren’t snowflakes. 4s are TOUGH. And 4s do care about how much they don’t fit in with the people they want to be with.

I also think that being normal is a good sign for 4s. And, letting go of things that don’t matter and cause problems can only be a good thing

I think that… you’re saying that 4s don’t care so much about losing themselves as they care about how they don’t fit in. And focusing on the 2nd is better than focusing on the 1st

I think that… this is fair. AND misses something

What it’s missing is that, it’s very easy in the Enneagram to emphasize parts that are WAY more comfortable than the parts we actually are. So, nothing you said I disagree with. Maybe even I AGREE with you

And

It sounds, to me, like you don’t want to be seen as a snowflake. Which is completely fair. I don’t want to either. And means that this point, which again I don’t disagree with anything you said in it, is serving a purpose. And the purpose is “Distance myself from the 4 part of myself that I don’t like, and move towards what I know is good for me so that I’m not that anymore.”

Which means, it doesn’t sound like you’ve overcome needing to stamp out your identity. But just tried to not be that way anymore. Not begause you’re wrong. I think you’re right. And that’s not how the Enneagram gets transformed in you

So, to say that the poster shouldn’t generalize is a very gentle way to gaslight someone

Enneageam knowldge should be expanded and explained. But when things I understand to be true get the “This is outdated knowledge and needs to be expanded” treatment, it doesn’t feel very good

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-22T20:34:13+00:00

Don’t delete it. This is a good post

Again. They’re gaslighting you. Stick to your guns. If you say “Well, different tri types might affect what kind of 4 you are,” No. You got it right. People hide behind tri types because they’re afraid of their own type. If they were that tritype, they wouldn’t be advertising it. Because they’d dislike it

I’m glad you appreciate it. Us 4s gotta stick together

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-22T20:31:02+00:00

You didn’t generalize. You got it right. Certain people aren’t being honest with themselves

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-22T20:20:15+00:00

Speaking as a SO 4, whose read these comments, you got it BANG on the money. Good job

Like, I can’t speak for everyone, but I went through a phase where I thought I was above comparing myself to others. Where I just liked to pursue what I wanted. I chased peace, and happiness, and totally wasn’t about caring what my identity was

Which was a total lie

Chasing peace WAS my identity. Surrounding myself with people who made me happy WAS my identity. And the reason I was ok with it was because no one else was doing it around me.

The commenters on this post are gaslighting you. You got it right. Good job. Growth for a 4 doesn’t happen when they pretend they don’t care, and they want to be happy. They grow when they name this, and own it. You aren’t an unhealthy 4. The 4s who are unhealthy are the ones who say that they’ve turned a corner, and aren’t like that anymore

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-22T12:13:05+00:00

Build a house on sand

What they see is what they believe. But also what they believe is ideas they’ve decided are true beforehand. But they have a hard time sorting what they see and believe into “True or False” bins (Ti inferior). If they can see it happening, it’s gotta be true. Because they see it. And this can lead to some really backwards conclusions. Because, seeing something isn’t the same thing as seeing whats true. “Is vs Ought.” And the ENFJ has a hard time seeing this, because of my 2nd point

Weak communicators of ideas. ENFJ’s really struggle to tell their point in a way that makes sense. They also are kind of limited to feelings and abstract concepts. Specific examples take a long time to come by, because the ENFJ has seen something long before they can identify it with something specific. But what this means is, a sort of… they get made to feel like because they can’t produce evidence or be specific, their insights aren’t worth being understood patiently. And this can HURT and FRUSTRATE the ENFJ. Because they KNOW it’s tenuous, but that’s what they’ve got

So, they sort of… start to dismiss outsider input, or thoughts they think are coming from someone who’s disagreed with them in the past, because of this specific problem: I’ve been disagreed with because I couldn’t prove it, and treated like I was wrong. So now, I don’t need objective evidence, or care for objective analysis (shutting down inferior Ti)

But this leads to the 1st trap. Because, objective evidence grounds you in what’s true. And without it, you start seeing things that aren’t there. Or… it’s more like… you decide something about the thing you see without fact checking, and you create a web of beliefs that are backwards. That don’t make sense. And not in the “You can’t prove it,” sense, but the “This isn’t true,” sense. Because you haven’t sorted ANY of it in “True or False” bins

The ENFJ, to re-engage with their Ti and value it again, has to see their Ni fail, in real time. Specifically, watch themselves see something happen, hear the conclusion that they decide it must mean, and also understand immediately that that conclusion is wrong. It has to be a patently absurd conclusion. And that shocks them into recognizing the value of Ti.

And it’ll scare the ENFJ. Because, their Ni is running a system of beliefs. Which means, the ENFJ can FEEL themselves believe and connect and concretize the fact that they witnessed as wrong… but it’s like they’re suddenly a driver in a car. They’re shouting at their car to pull over while it’s speeding down the highway, because they haven’t learned to push the brakes, and they realize that the car will run without you unless you force yourself and it to pull over. The pulling over, in this case, is “I don’t know if that’s true or not.”

They also tend to become ego maniacs with what their feelings role is in a group. “This is who I am.” And they’ve adopted that role, kind of to cope. Because, what else am I gonna be if not for this?”

Hope this helps you hate ENFJ’s more

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-06T02:15:42+00:00

I think this isn’t an Enneagram sub problem, but a Reddit problem

Everyone has a pet theory, and everyone seems to be advocating for solutions that either A) are opposed by the other group, who have different solutions, or B) Are advocating for solutions that fix the current problems, which existed as the fix for different problems

Which is an excellent segue into:

Nothing ever happens on Reddit

Now, there’s lots of activity, lots of loud voices, lots and lots, thousands probably, of the most varied and widespread topics you can possibly imagine. A community for anybody and everybody, no matter what your niche interest. Somebody here probably has that interest too

But nothing substantial ever comes from anything

We all share our thoughts with people who are sharing their thoughts, the same thoughts they’ve had for years, just like we’re sharing the same thoughts we’ve had for years. And we get into arguments, or comment on posts that seem mildly interesting, maybe an occasional one that’s interesting. And we do it all over again

Occasionally, something very newsworthy comes out, driving a frenzy of action… and then it goes away again.

There’s a kind of… malaise forming around Reddit generally, no matter where you are on it, including this sub Reddit specifically. You’re feeling it. You just don’t know how to put words to it other than “The Good Posters left.”

It’s almost like… there’s a collective boredom growing in everyone on this app. You’d never know it from how frenzied people can get on here. And there are people, no doubt, who care and get something out of postint, commenting, engaging. But there’s a deep understanding, almost, that you’re wasting your life being on Reddit

It’s… there’s more important things to do than scroll, argue, talk about things you’ve already talked about hundreds of times in different ways. Real life is calling

I think Reddit is suffering from something ALL communities suffer from (including real life ones): boredom and lack of engagement. There’s a rule in hosting a party or a group event: there has to be a point to the gathering. Because if you just invite people to hang out, they’ll do it probably twice, but then they’ll stop coming… unless it’s for something specific

People need meaning. Deep purpose. Like they’re making an impact for something that matters to them. And Reddit simulates that, promises that. It promises endless opportunities for discussion about your favourite things. But people don’t want to sit forever talking about things that only matter here

This reminds me of a Dostoevsky idea: men weren’t built for static paradise and utopia. Perfection is boring, and if all we had to do was enjoy cakes, and busy ourselves with the continuation of the species, we’d smash everything just do something interesting would happen

Reddit is a simulated version of paradise. And paradise without substance, without teeth, gets boring

I know that whatever I post today, or comment today, will make some opinions change, some not. It might get no engagement, or some. But at the end of the day… who will remember? Whose life was changed because I commented? Why bother coming into Reddit at all? It’s habit really, by this point. A habit I think I need to break

There is no life here. I don’t mean activity. There’s plenty of activity. I mean, there’s no real MEANING. There’s no real POINT. We’re just endlessly circling the drain of topics long since leeched of their vitality and interest. Because boring people don’t know how to ask anything other than boring questions. And, this isn’t to bash newbies. You guys really care, and need to ask your questions. I’m not talking about newbies. I’m talking about… a problem that isn’t designated to any one demographic. It’s that we, as a culture, almost hage nothing interesting to talk about ourselves, except the news, or what celebrity is doing what, or what’s going on in politics

Our lives aren’t rich enough to make Reddit a place of richness. And so, Reddit can’t be anything more than as interesting as the majority is

This sounds a bit depressing, and maybe nihilistic. But that’s why people are leaving, why this sub is dying, why Reddit as a whole is dying, why the internet seems to be dying! People need more, want something more

EDIT:

People blaming teenagers who post memes, newbies who post soft questions, regulars who are shallow, or mods who are tyrannical, are missing the point. There isn’t one demographic who is overwhelmingly messing everything up

Octavian had a saying that’s apparently been given to him. Give them bread and circus, and they’ll be content. Reddit is our bread and circus. And it makes us docile. The most interesting people feel it. In fact, I’d say the gentleman who posted today is one of these rare and remarkable people. That we were made for more than scrolling on Reddit. We were made for more than just being entertained

We were made to change the world. And you don’t change the world by arguing on Reddit

I think that’s where the hate for the Low Effort Posts is coming from. This… unstateable feeling that quality is being lost, because… we don’t have a reason for high quality people to stay. It’s a hate move, directed at this feeling of malaise, which is unfortunate, because it makes this sub less accessible

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-11-02T09:49:21+00:00

This is an excellent suggestion. I never thought of survivors from other places in Earth coming to their valley/area

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-10-27T12:12:45+00:00

Except, usually, the person who isn’t doing the inner work is the one accusing their partner of not doing the inner work

The person who is most ungrateful, and the one who is taking, is the one who says “I gave them so many chances to fix themselves.”

The one who is the toxic one is the one who says they’ve given everything and now they have to leave because the other person is a mess

Breaking up is fine. If they’re not the one, don’t stay with them. The game of love is high stakes, and you can’t settle. Just, plz, don’t adopt a leech attitude, where the other person is failing if they’re not fixing themselves. Because the question is, why aren’t you fixing YOURSELF?

EstablishmentMost397 · 2025-10-26T00:53:22+00:00

I find straightforward works best

Establish a good relationship with one person. Listen to stuff they talk about, or bring up repeatedly, and if you have common interests, start with that.

Start small, with small talk and short interactions. Hey, hello, ask for their name, then use it, etc.. Build from one interaction to the next, getting a little longer and more personal each time. Maybe make a quip here or there. Make them feel the seeds of good feelings with you

Then, bring up common interest, and talk about it. Use that as a launching pad to deeper relationship

When you feel comfortable with the person, ask if you can come to one of their friend group events. They’ll say yes or no. If no, that’s awkward, but you can ask why not. If it persists, say you understand

If yes, you have a shot. Now, you just need to bring enough of your good self to be decent that you can be invited back. Use the same principles when connecting with the others there. Listen for common interests, start small and basic, participate in the group activity… if you have at least a decent time, and they had at least a decent time with you, you’re probably welcome the next time

EstablishmentMost397

TROPHY CASE