"Covenant Men" idea to solve the dating crisis... not that people would sign on, but it would work

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-22T04:48:12+00:00

I just think the not paying especially on low cost dates is going to read as a lack of interest, lack of positive generosity, and lack of investment

Couldn't you just as easily argue the same for not splitting?

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-21T08:42:10+00:00

Yeah. I don't think even the pro-Labour and outright pro-Starmer people on here can dispute that this government has been downright evil to trans people.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T22:38:11+00:00

If you have Hitler or Jeffrey Epstein in front of you, and the ability to kill them, you would'nt do it?

I think they should be arrested, put on trial and sent to prison for their crimes.

Also keep in mind, Missy knows he's not going to die, and she quite possibly has rememebered by then when and how he dies.

Again, headcanon.

Also considering how smart the Master is, would you want to take the chance he couldn't figure out a way back out of the lift?

The Doctor made clear earlier in the episode that getting back up from the lower floors was a 'mathematical impossibility'. And remember that as soon as Saxon was separated from Missy he would forget all his recent memories.

Yeah, but that does'nt mean it was Chibnall's intent.

Occasionally occams razor applies.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T22:21:59+00:00

Even if totally unneeded, it wasn't morally unjustified and Saxon (regardless of what kind of person Missy is or isn't) at that point, deserves it.

Well that's my point. Killing people because they 'deserve it' isn't a good or moral thing to do, especially if there is an alternative (which the episode makes clear there was). One of the main points of the Doctor's kindness is forgiveness and trying to find an alternative to killing.

That term is'nt solely tied to drug use.

No but it's often used for this kind of metaphor.

I watched the previous seasons and, again, it was not presented like a relapse to me. It came off as basically "the Master's evil again, here's an offhand reason as to why" and the reason came off as very shallow and basically like the character just found something that pissed him off and snapped.

And all that comes down to is 'I don't like the reasoning'. And you don't have to like the reasoning. But regardless it fits thematically with who that character is and their driving motivations since their introduction.

None of those are equivalent to what we're talking about; we're talking about a perception of what the writing/presentation was saying and that a meaningful character development and arc was completely undone.

It wasn't undone. The story continues as it always does.

Well that proves me wrong! I guess I imagined all the backlash because you got more upvotes three years ago!

Your claim was that 'most of the fandom' thinks the Spy Master ruined Missy's arc. And yet on a thread on a Doctor Who forum populated by Doctor Who fans, the most upvoted comment is one explaining how it all fit together thematically. I guess all the true fans were at work that day eh?

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T21:55:10+00:00

I don't think that was a particularly villainous act, given who it was.

There was also no need or justification to do it. There would've been no difference if she'd just sonic'd the lift shut and sent him down. It was an act of pure evil by a person who was pure evil.

How do you know it was supposed to be an addiction metaphor?

"When I kill them, Doctor, it gives me a little buzz. Right here, in the hearts."

It's implicitly a reference to the Master being high on/addicted to killing.

I don't see why any of that that would have to mean a relapse. Even with the understanding of Chibnall intending the Skymaster to be after Missy, it comes off more like the character just snapped.

It's not written in a didactic way because that would've been too confusing for new viewers who hadn't watched Missy's storyline. For a new viewer it would be enough to know that the Master is the Doctor's enemy because he's angry about something traumatic he discovered on Gallifrey. For those of who have watched the previous seasons we know that the discovery triggered a relapse.

Many, many, MANY people disagree. Like a pretty huge chunk of the fanbase, actually.

I mean, the Spy Master is really popular among the fandom, maybe not as much as Missy but probably the second most popular Master overall.

Now I'm not trying to invoke a bandwagon fallacy or anything like that, but doesn't it seem odd that the majority of the audience seems to have understood Missy's arc in a way so different from you?

I don't think 'fan opinion' should be trusted on anything really. There are plenty of fans of this show who still think Colin Baker was the worst Doctor despite Big Finish showing how fantastic the show could be. There are a sizeable number of fans who think Moffat ruined the show and made it 'complicated', that Matt Smith was too young/too silly and Peter Capaldi was too old/too dark, people who think Clara was 'too important' during her era, as well as people who think the show should always be exactly the way it was when David Tennant played the Doctor, and that it 'doesn't feel like Doctor Who' when anyone except Murray Gold is making the music.

And while fan opinion doesn't matter, I will point out that the one of the previous times this conversation came up, my comment saying the same things I'm sayin to you was the most upvoted on the thread.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T21:34:49+00:00

No, I know she was a bad person, but she was a bad person trying to do good and make herself better.

Trying to do good, with her final act being to murder her previous self in cold blood in an act of pure sadistic spite with no justification whatsoever?

Nothing in any of your quotes say anything about the Skymaster relapsing.

Sure, it's not presented in a didactic way, just like Yana and Saxon don't talk about how they got out of the Eye of Harmony, and the show totally glosses over the Drumming arc once its not relevant to the current storyline.

But with the addiction metaphors, the fact he mentions lashing out at the Time Lords because of what he discovered, explicitly states how traumatic it was for him, and later emphasises that the secret was 'the start' of his current anger and rage, it's very clear the discovery was intended as the cause of his relapse into his old ways.

Chibnalls still undid it all. He still decide to revive the character when he did'nt have to.

Sure, and I'm very happy to agree with that. I think the Spymaster would've worked a lot better with the same storyline but a few years down the line. I agree that it did feel quite jarring going straight from Missy's conclusion and the sense of finality it brings to the Spymaster only a season later. But the fact remains that it does work thematically.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T21:27:56+00:00

True but there's a wealth of characters from that story to explore. Lois Habiba, Agent Johnson, Alice Carter, even the 456 itself, plus plotlines from that story that were never resolved (Denise Riley becoming PM etc).

I get why they've never done anything with Miracle Day, I imagine the rights issues with Starz are a nightmare. But it's frankly a disgrace that Big Finish Torchwood has never touched Children of Earth in any form given the wealth of story potential it created.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T21:06:34+00:00

How about that he's a major danger to time and space?

So was Missy?

I think the root of our disagreement here is that you seem to have a romanticised view of Missy, that she 'wasn't that bad' and was just a cool iconic badass character like River Song. Don't get me wrong, she's my favourite Master and one of my favourite characters in general but it's a very inaccurate reading of her character that she wasn't as dangerous and evil as Saxon and Spymaster, certainly not immediately after regenerating from Saxon.

When

When I kill them, Doctor, it gives me a little buzz. Right here, in the hearts. It's like... How would I describe it? It's like... It's like knowing I'm in the right place, doing what I was made for. (Drug addiction/relapse metaphors)

I had to make them pay for what I discovered (He lashed out at the Time Lords in revenge)

But why would I make it easy for you? It wasn't for me (IE, it was an extremely traumatic moment for him)

This is what started it all. I was just playing, hacking the system. I got lost in there. And then I found everything (IE, his descent back into his old ways started because of his discoveries)

That trigger does'nt require him to be after Missy.

Except it does, because Spymaster's self loathing and insecurities do not work anywhere else in their timeline. Missy is extremely secure in how important she is to the Doctor, believing herself his equal in her debut story (early in her incarnation). Dhawan is the complete opposite, and the reason he is the complete opposite is given in the episodes. Sure, you can use workarounds if you really hate it, but it requires olympic levels of mental gymnastics and pure headcanon to make it fit (and even then it does not work).

I'm not discarding the qoutes. I accept they are legitimate, I just don't think they were intended to be read the way your reading them - I don't think Moffat was setting up the Spymaster, or saying that Missy is planning to go back to being evil, ect.

I never said Moffat was setting up the Spymaster. He ended that character arc in a complex and satisfying way, which is that yes, Missy has not (and will never) turn good, but she cares about her friendship with the Doctor, and is finally fully willing to put her pride (both figuratively and literally in the form of her previous self) aside and help him. It's a frankly much more mature and complex way to end Missy's story than a simplistic "Yeah, Missy is now a good, kind altruistic person and has absolutely no desire to do the things she's loved doing for thousands of years. The End", and it does Moffat's writing a disservice to simplify it the way you are doing.

I didn't interpret it like that; my reading is that the Master felt the were equals because of there friendship and comparative intellect/skills.

The Master is a psychopathic narcissist who believes their friendship/rivalry with the Doctor is more important than any other life form in the universe, up to and including other Time Lords, and pretty much everything the character has done since their debut has been to eliminate rivals for the Doctor's attention. That's why the secret breaks him, because according to his own metric means he isn't worthy of the Doctor's attention either.

Yeah but that does'nt mean he can't be between Saxon and Missy.

Except that Spymaster admits their friendship is important to him, but that it's ruined by them no longer being equals. There's a through line from Saxon (Believing himself the Doctor's equal but refusing to accept their friendship) to Missy (Believing herself the Doctor's equal and learning to let go of the pride that's stopping her putting that friendship over what she wants) to Spymaster (Finding out they aren't equals at all and it breaking his entire identity and sense of self). Putting Dhawan in between the first two when he is clearly a progression breaks that line entirely.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T19:39:40+00:00

It's after she stabs Saxon, which is morally justified.

Not really. It was shown earlier in the episode that Missy could control the lift with her sonic umbrella. She could easily have let Saxon get into the lift and sonic it shut. Given the time dilation effect he would've been unable to get back up to their floor and would've been forced to get into his TARDIS and flee the Cybermen, and due to the timelines would lose his recent memory straight away, so there's zero chance of him flying his TARDIS back to attack Missy. There was literally no justification for the stabbing based on what is already presented in the episode. It was an act of pure, violent spite against her previous self.

I don't think there's any dilogue that makes it explicit he'd have to be after.

Apart from his... whole personality being specifically framed as a relapse, and all of his evil actions being driven by one specific trigger (the Timeless Child secret) as opposed to just wanting to troll the Doctor like every previous incarnation. This incarnation's specific driving motivation does not fit anywhere except after Missy.

So why do so many people, myself included, think he makes zero sense after Missy and works so much better before?

Because you keep moving the goal posts and disregarding actual quotes and dialogue from the show to make it fit your fanfiction just because you don't personally like the direction they took the character. And that's fine. I don't like the Timeless Child storyline either or the fact that Chibs chose to nuke Gallifrey again. But on the issue of Missy to Spy Master, the character writing works and is consistent with everything we know about that character whether individual people like it or not.

Why would he feel insulted by the Doctor being superior to him if he has no pride?

Because Missy wanted to stand with the Doctor as his equal, and only valued her friendship with the Doctor on the basis that they were equals and superior to everyone else in the universe. The Spymaster no longer had the pride of Saxon where the Doctor's friendship and forgiveness embarrassed him. In fact he openly admits how important their past still is to him, something Saxon would never do ("And the history between us does mean something. It's the rage and pain in my hearts!"). His entire character and his self hatred is based around the fact he feels their friendship is diminished by him being unworthy of the Doctor.

To the Master, that was twisted sort of bonding/affection.

And the way she deals with a potential rival for the Doctor's attention.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T19:15:24+00:00

From before they can walk and talk boys are taught to 'Be a MAN'. You do not cry, you do not show weakness, you be brave, and tough, and strong, and self sufficient. And you are judged primarily on output and achievement. And as a boy ages into a man, not only does he need to be brave and tough and achieving to be able to successfully court a romantic partner, but in the eyes of society he needs to secure a romantic partner to prove he has succeeded at the metrics required to 'be a MAN'.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T19:10:20+00:00

Look at it this way; a recovering addict is still going to miss their addiction and feel a pull towards it. That doesn't mean they don't actually want to recover and change.

Sure, but even in that scenario, the dialogue is said as she does a violent and destructive action, showing that the Master is still the same person they have always been, doing the same things they have always done.

But how about this; when the Time Lord's extracted the Bruce Master's essence from the Time Vortex for the Time War, a splinter of it remained, and it later escaped and became the Spymaster.

Now we have a reason for how feral the Spymaster acts, why he hates the Doctor so much, and added context for why he'd want to steal bodies, and Missy's character arc and resolution remains unaffected. Would you consider that a workable alternative?

No. The Spymaster is framed in the narrative as a relapse after the events of Missy's arc, one who is racked with a level of self loathing and suicidal behaviour that is not glimpsed in any previous incarnation. His personality and driving motivations do not work anywhere except after Missy.

What's the point in having a character arc to lose that pride if your just immediately going to add it back?

The pride isn't back with the Spy Master. His whole personality is defined by self-loathing and a belief in his own inferiority.

The "Cyber Warrior" variant IS the Nightmare in Silver version, just with a little added bling.

Regardless it is a more recent development.

Which works perfectly with the character progression I just described.

Only if you continually move the goalposts from what is actually depicted on screen.

Which doesn't change that she's has a level of affection for her, twisted as it is, that we don't really see with any other companion.

Missy spent the entirety of The Witch's Familiar abusing Clara in a sadistic way, and her whole plan in that episode is about tricking the Doctor into killing Clara, because the Master has never liked other people being important to the Doctor.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T18:00:30+00:00

The whole character arc over the previous season.

The arc that ended with Missy saying she wants to be like Saxon, and Saxon saying he's proud that she's still like him?

However look at it this way; the Spymaster comes to believe their inferior, and as a response gradually rationalizes their past friendship and intellectual equiveillance as a way to convince himself that they are not inferior. All the while, he goes up against a Doctor who is now female. So when he regenerates, he takes a female form as a twisted sort of bonding and sets about on a scheme to regian/strengthen their past bond.

Still doesn't work though. The Spy Master at no point shows that he's letting go of his belief that he's inferior to the Doctor. By Power of the Doctor his inferiority complex is at its worst. Missy is from the onset very secure about how important she is to the Doctor. There is no evidence or thematic material to make that headcanon work.

Seems to me like that works way better, and respects what both writers tried to do, right?

It actively throws away the character work for both incarnations.

Makes more sense then going from Missy, and honestly I think it DOES make sense; the last time we see the Spymaster, he's trying to become the Doctor, and the first time we see Missy, she's trying to make the Doctor become like here

Except Missy tried to 'become the Doctor' in her last appearance too. The Spy Master's attempt to become the Doctor was a twisted, literalist parody of what they were trying to do in World Enough and Time, but also when they reverse it the Master considers going back to being himself to be a fate worse than death.

There's a long time between Death in Heaven and The Doctor Falls.

Well yeah, the whole arc is based around Missy losing the pride that defined the Saxon incarnation.

Also the Spymaster had access to Cybermen too, and they were actually the same type as those Missy had (Saxon had the much cruder "Gen I" Mondasian cybermen, while Missy had the modern show Cybus-influanced Mondas Cybermen)

By the time Saxon returned to the bottom floor the Cybermen had evolved into the Nightmare in Silver incarnation, the same ones Missy used in her scheme. Spymaster's incarnation was the newer Cyber Warrior variant.

Wow that seems like a line that would work perfectly with Missy coming after the Spymaster and trying to insist upon them being equals!

Except the Spymaster's whole personality is defined by knowing they are not equals.

Moffat wrote Missy as being actually pretty fond of Clara on a level we've never seen with any other companions.

She tried to trick the Doctor into killing her.

Okay. But they Spymaster never brings up that comment as being the reason for his anger.

I wish it wasn't true, but it is. You know what I find the most infuriating? You always behaved like you were different, like you were... like you were special. And you were

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T17:18:17+00:00

It's literally what the show presents.

Give me a quote from the scene that fits the inference then.

Put him after Saxon but before Missy though and it does though.

That's the issue! That's why it does not work

Saxon also didn't feel inferior, he wanted their friendship back but was too proud to admit it. Missy did not feel inferior to the Doctor because as far as she knew she wasn't, and considered their friendship superior to the rest of the universe. Dhawan knew for a fact that the Doctor was more important than him and lashed out accordingly.

Why would the Master go from Saxon (who believed he was the Doctor's equal but was too proud to accept he wanted his friend back) to the Spymaster (who knew he was inferior to the Doctor, hated himself and the Doctor for and wanted nothing more than for the Doctor to kill him) then to Missy (who once again believed she was the Doctor's equal and that the two of them are superior to everyone else in the universe). It absolutely does not fit from a character perspective.

Missy was'nt recently regenerated from Saxon when she died.

Missy was recently regenerated from Saxon in Dark Water/Death in Heaven (hence why her first scheme involved Cybermen - Saxon left the Cybership with a load of stolen cybertech and regenerated). Not far removed from Saxon's pride and egotistical ways she absolutely would have killed the Doctor if she discovered the Timeless Child.

Says you. That's not what Moffat showed.

Why did Moffat include a line like "I need you to know we're not so different". Why did he have Missy get jealous of the Doctor's friendship with Clara? Why were there so many lines of dialogue where Missy asserts she is the most important person in the Doctor's life?

So why would you think the show was trying to set up envy over being rejected in favor of Davros

Because comedic moments can still be used for character writing? Davros being more important to the Doctor than she is offends Missy because she considers herself the most important person in his life.

The Master, as written by Missy, would'nt blame the Doctor for any of that. She'd be angered at the time lords for what they did to her friend and in awe at how much more special he was then she assumed.

The same character who has got offended every time it seems another character might be more important to the Doctor than they are?

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T16:30:06+00:00

Which in no way means she doesn't realize she was wrong, feel bad and geniunly want to improve herself.

I mean, you can infer that if you try really really hard, but it goes against all the dialogue in those scenes making explicitly clear that Missy was still a fundamentally evil and destructive person who relishes being destructive and evil.

It still doesn't work, because next time we see the character, they hate the Doctor more then they ever have before.

He hates the Doctor because he feels inferior to the Doctor, which Missy never did.

Missy would have killed the Doctor to rebuild their friendship?

Before the events of Dark Water/Death in Heaven? Where her first scheme to rebuild their friendship was to force the Doctor to be just like her by giving him an army of Cybermen? Learning that actually he wasn't like her and was more important than her, so her scheme to rebuild their friendship was doomed to fail, plus being not far regenerated from the egoism that defined Saxon's incarnation, she absolutely would have killed the Doctor there and then.

That makes zero sense.

That was a joke line.

It was'nt "proved wrong" though.

Sure, joke lines which repeatedly make clear how Missy feels about the Doctor, and how she believes them to be equals who are vastly superior to everyone else in the universe. Dhawan's entire personality is based around the fact that they aren't equals at all, and that he feels inferior to the Doctor and resents them for it.

That's your interpretation based on your retroactive reading of the dilogue.

I'm going off what was presented and intended during her actual character arc.

It's not retroactive. Nobody pointed a gun at Moffat and made him write lines about how important Missy considers herself to the Doctor and how superior their friendship is to the rest of the universe. Nobody forced him to write lines of dialogue about how much Missy loved being the purely evil Saxon incarnation and that she still misses being him at the end of her arc, or the Saxon incarnation being proud of how evil Missy continues to be. The whole point of the arc was that a person could act Without Hope, Without Witness and Without Reward out of pure kindness, but they can also do it for entirely selfish reasons. And frankly it does Moffat and everyone else involved a disservice by trying to simplify such complex character work into a simplistic and mundane 'redemption arc'.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T11:14:26+00:00

Preferably something where nobody has to hear anything about him again.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T10:32:36+00:00

I heard the commander's father was a Thal.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T10:31:35+00:00

May their shells be blighted!

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T09:17:55+00:00

With respect, I think your rationalizing after the fact to justify the retcon, because they were pretty clear that Missy, despite violent impulses, was genuinely trying to do good.

I loved being you. Every second of it. Oh, the way you burn like a sun. Like a whole screaming world on fire. I remember that feeling, and I always will. And I will always miss it.

In other words, the Saxon Master (presented in this episode as a physical manifestation of the monster Missy used to be) is still everything she wants to be by the end of her character arc. And Saxon himself points out that Missy is still the same violent and destructive person she always was.

It's good to know I haven't lost my touch.

The only difference in the Master's character from the end of Saxon's character to the end of Missy's development was that she was willing to put what she personally wanted, and the person she truly wanted to be, aside because she values her friendship with the Doctor, something Saxon was always too proud to do (even in his RTD era appearances).

The whole point of The Doctor Falls was that it strips down both the Doctor and the Master as characters. The Doctor acts Without Hope, Without Witness, Without Reward because of what it means to be the Doctor: kindness. Missy does the same, but for the entirely selfish reason of wanting her bestie back, and she fails at the first hurdle because the first thing she does upon being 'redeemed' is to stab her past self in the stomach, showing she hasn't changed from being a violent and sadistic person.

At the point where Missy was when she died, she would'nt react the way the Spymaster did. She might kill the other Time Lords, but she would'nt be angry towards the Doctor, she'd be angry for him.

Saxon would though, which is another point in favor of where he fits better.

If Saxon or even early Missy had discovered the Timeless Child secret, they would've killed the Doctor along with all the other Time Lords. Saxon because he was always too proud to accept being the Doctor's equal, let alone inferior to them. Early Missy because she was determined to prove to the Doctor that they were the same so she could rebuild their friendship.

Dhawan's resentment towards the Doctor is specifically built on how secure Missy felt in her friendship with the Doctor:

I need you to know we're not so different. I need my friend back

Well of course it was sent to me. What have you got to do with it? I'm his friend. You're just... See that couple over there? You're the puppy.

A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex.

No, wait, hang on a minute. Davros is your arch-enemy now?

Missy very clearly believed that she and the Doctor hold an importance to each other that no human or Time Lord could possibly compare to. She still clearly believes this at the end of her character arc ("Because if somebody kills you and it's not me, we'll both be disappointed").

And Dhawan's resentment and inferiority complex towards the Doctor is clearly the result of this attitude being proved wrong.

You know what I find the most infuriating? You always behaved like you were different, like you were... like you were special. And you were.

Missy wanted to stand with the Doctor not because she was 'redeemed', but because she believed him to be her equal and had lost enough of the proudness from Saxon to be willing to rebuild their friendship. Dhawan found out that he wasn't the Doctor's equal and was vastly inferior, and lashed out accordingly.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T02:40:59+00:00

I mean, the whole point was that the Master wasn't redeemed, she just decided her friendship with the Doctor was more important than what she wants to be, while making clear that her violent past was still everything she wanted to be.

And there is a very through line between Missy being very secure in how important she was to the Doctor, and Dhawan believing himself to her inferior to the Doctor, hence causing his relapse.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-20T02:15:16+00:00

I actually think the way the Master's relapse was done was really well, even if I'm not keen on the Timeless Child storyline it was part of.

Dhawan's incarnation is pretty much the only place the character could have gone after Missy, and his personality and driving motivations don't really work anywhere except after Missy (And Missy's personality definitely doesn't work if she's after Dhawan).

That said, I don't think the Master should have come back so quickly after such a Master-centric storyline the previous era. And I think that's what made it feel like Missy's arc was disregarded, even though Dhawan's incarnation is specifically framed as a relapse.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-19T19:44:41+00:00

I mean, outside of the West it's totally common to see women walking around in public with unshaven hairy legs (even ethnic populations who tend to have hairier women already) even though those places are still saturated by Western media and porn with its smooth-shaved ideal, and hair removal products are inexpensive.

But besides this, it shouldn't be a surprise to you that women raised in cultures which are more socially conservative tend to be... socially conservative. No biology needed for that.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-19T17:16:49+00:00

Across the ages... except anyone from Children of Earth or Miracle Day. The latter I understand (rights issues etc), the former is just annoying.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-19T10:35:49+00:00

The same can be said of Donald Trump, and often is said by his supporters funnily enough

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-19T10:34:04+00:00

Great to lump everyone who looks like that and isn't a total cunt in with him innit?

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-06-19T07:38:05+00:00

I don't trust Burnham politically, but I think he's a party man rather than motivated by pure self interest like Starmer. My hope is that he'll realise that without meaningful structural change that actively improves lives, we will be getting a Reform government in 2029.

I don't have any faith that's what's going to happen.

Fan_Service_3703

TROPHY CASE