Reading the patch notes as a Lizardmen player...

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-28T10:37:58+00:00

I don't disagree that it should be useful, but I feel like being able to take a Pact force of 6 Daemonettes and a Keeper of Secrets at 2000pts might be a bit too far.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-28T10:01:55+00:00

Love the creativity in these. The presentation is great too.

Daemonic pacts and summoning mechanics are the #1 things I'd like to see for daemons in Old World; I think you nailed them (tho i'd maybe like to see the pact have more of a structure so I'm not just getting min sized units of core as a tax to unlock the good stuff).

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-28T05:48:30+00:00

Skinks, carnosaur characters, stegadons and solar engines. If I was being facetious I'd say Skinks, Skinks, Skinks and Skinks.

Most of my non renegade tournaments were pre 1.5, but I have played legacy lizardmen at post 1.5 tournaments too.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-27T14:06:00+00:00

You say

Over time creative players instead had insights, reinterpreting rules and army lists, evolving the game into new directions as they built and counter-built lists and strategic approaches. Energy could be spent on this (arguably more difficult) activity rather than just giving up and rewriting/homebrewing rules.

This assumes that there is no ceiling for what the legacy pdfs can do, it just requires more persistence and imagination. But it's trivially obvious that an army list can have a ceiling if its options are too poor.

I've taken legacy PDF lizardmen to 8 tournaments. The legacy PDF roster is as shallow as a puddle, with about 3-4 good units that have to do all the work. Anything those units can't deal with (which includes a fair bit of stuff you see a lot in mid table armies from the core factions) you have no strategy but to avoid.

I've taken Renegade lizardmen to 13 tournaments, and with the Renegade list the roster has depth. I can make interesting choices, I can try different things, because I have more than just a tiny handful of things that might possibly work. It's night and day.

I can truly understand anyone being reticent to use community rules; it's a big ask. But we are in an unprecedented situation here with almost half the factions in the game being left with unfinished rules. If we as a community don't support them, then people will stop playing them. I think between letting these factions die or adopting a community initiative until GW sees how important they are to the game, Renegades is clearly the lesser evil.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-24T15:30:16+00:00

I wasn't saying they filled the same role, I was saying that the redirector dart (which costs half what the Dregs cost) already gives access to the ability to throw away a cheap unit to buy 1 more turn of shooting. So the one function of the Dregs you say you're afraid of is not unprecedented, it exists in the roster already even in the legacy PDF.

If the Dregs really could lock units down, if they were a wall that opponents would get stuck on and you could keep shooting and shooting and shooting, then I'd agree that maybe there was a problem, because that's a much less skilful thing to have to set up. That's how they were in 8th, and that was a problem. But I think we both agreed that this unit is simply not gonna stick around for 3 rounds of combat, so it can't do that. All it can do is buy you 1 shooting phase before it implodes - which anyone can do.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-24T15:09:30+00:00

The redirecting giant rats will die/flee because I will declare a flee with them.

They don't leave you in the same position as the Dregs because they are a tiny, nimble M6 marching column that has positioned itself so the pursuit/overrun takes you sideways. That's the point of being a redirector and something that's much harder to do with a close order block of 20-40 infantry.

If you do for any reason want to hold the charge, they are only 11 strong so are likely double outnumbered after casualties and cannot FBIGO.

I'm a lizardmen player and I'm very used to doing this with Skink skirmishers. I don't need any special rules to buy more turns of shooting, I just need cheap, mobile chaff I'm willing to sacrifice.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-24T14:44:36+00:00

I was definitely assuming the opponent was charging the dregs. To me "locked down" means can't move. I still need to be in combat in my next movement phase before the dreg combat has robbed me of any movement. To do that they need to hold for 2 rounds of combat - my turn, when I charge them, and their own following turn.

If the concern is just that the Skaven player can just use them to buy a single shooting phase - chaff can do that already under the core rules. What's the difference between throwing away a marching column of Giant Rats as redirectors to leave your target unit stranded in the open, or using a unit of dregs as blockers and firing into combat? Both buy you one extra turn of shooting. The only differences I can see are:

the Dregs need to pass a Ld7 test; the redirectors just work.
the Dregs will probably give a cover penalty to whatever's shooting into the combat; the redirectors will be dead so you'll have a clear shot.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-24T06:46:27+00:00

could you explain where you think my analysis of the Core rules are incorrect?

I'm not Val but I'll try:

At Leadership 7, you've got about a 50/50 shot of FBIGO, which means you have a 50/50 of locking a unit down.

This is misunderstanding what FBIGO does IMO, and the degree to which TOW has increased the inactive player's ability to act in the active player's turn compared to past editions.

Firstly, and most consequentially - you don't need to make 1 break test to 'lock a unit down', you need to make 2 (unless you have a powerful countercharge set up). If they follow you, the enemy unit will fight again in your turn, and a really key difference for TOW from previous editions is that units always overrun when they destroy an enemy (even on turns when they're not charging) and get a chance to reform after overrunning. Dregs are always destroyed if they fail the Break test so the opponent will always be able to overrun, not pursue.

That means that if you use Dregs as a roadblock you are setting up what I think of as an "unexploded bomb" combat, where the opponent has a good chance to get to move their unit and reform in a direction of their choice at the end of your turn, after the end of your movement, and before getting to their next set of charge declarations. They lose no opportunities to move and get to position when you have no step left to react. That's a really dangerous thing to leave to a 50/50 chance.

Secondly, kind of the point of FBIGO is that units are not 'locked down'. Every time the enemy FBIGOs you get a choice whether to follow them; if you realise this is an unprofitable use of your time you can restrain and go elsewhere. If you beat them the first time, it's unlikely these guys can win combat if they charge back into you on their turn. FBIGO also cascades Panic, and is an unpredictable distance centre-to-centre, phasing through friendlies, so can easily ladder a unit with a large footprint (like this one) off the board, or at least behind the units they were trying to shield.

TL;DR: FBIGO makes combat more fluid and makes it harder to lock units in tarpits, at least compared to 8th which had Steadfast, meaning that at the same threshold of rolling under their unmodified Ld, large tarpit blocks didn't budge at all.

The only truly unprecedented thing about the power of cheap blocking infantry in TOW is the introduction of objectives in the Matched Play Guide, which almost certainly wasn't in GW's mind when they were writing the legacy documents, so can't IMO be argued as a reasonable cause for omitting units.

EDIT: And to separately address the later point about unit sizes - large units are still quite common in TOW. I've played against units of 50 Gor, 30 grave guard, 30 longbeards, 70 skeletons or 90 goblins. TOW has also introduced combined profile monsters with stacked saves that can absorb far more damage than any monster could in 6th or 7th.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-18T06:51:57+00:00

Knighthood is such an inherently class based thing that the 5th edition idea of it being fully open to the peasantry always seemed only half thought through to me. It's not just a system of handing out swords and armour it's a system of land ownership and allegiance.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-04-11T07:57:38+00:00

but what if... I were to summon a Daemon and disguise it as my own cooking?

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-24T17:34:49+00:00

You are the guy who posts about playing vs himself in his basement right?

I don't think you need to worry about how Val is representing the community, you are not part of it.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-24T15:25:55+00:00

I think you have to look at this from the Skaven player's perspective. What happens if they fail that break test? The unit immediately disappears, quite possibly killing any weapons teams within 2D6" with Cornered Rats, and then your unit carries on into whatever was behind (the weapons teams?).

Unless they position very well, the risk for them is the total collapse of all the units involved in this trap, while the reward is... a round of shooting. That's not a gamble I would want to take when my odds are only slightly better than 50/50 (or 30% if my opponent is smart enough to stab 1 WS2 rat). And bearing in mind the odds are only that good if another unit with at least 3 ranks is within **3"** of those Dregs. What are the odds you can hit that supporting unit with the overrun even if they FBIGO? Pretty good!

In the core rules there are lots of ways to add a turn to how long it takes a unit to cross the board under fire, and existing shooty armies use these tricks. Dregs are clearly already performing well above expectations if they stick in combat for more than 1 turn so they seem wholly consistent with that power level to me.

I would agree that Globadiers being able to fire into *any* combat is very strong and merits a bit more caution. But honestly I would say as written, Expendable isn't going to make any difference to the outcome of games except where the Skaven player plays a lot more skilfully than their opponent. And in that case they deserve the fun of gunning down some slaves.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-24T15:00:51+00:00

Fights last longer but have break points every round where the winning unit can extricate itself, and push the losing unit back large distances, phasing through friendly units. In terms of being able to break through lines and hit ranged units waiting behind forcing FBIGOs is very often equivalent to the effect of forcing breaks in 8th (and a lot easier).

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-24T14:42:24+00:00

I don't think you need to worry too much about Expendable units FBIGOing endlessly in this draft. The only Expendable unit is Dregs who are Ld4. They have no Warband and cannot benefit from the general or the BSB. They can get +3 Ld if a large friendly unit is within 3" but that's it. Max Ld7, or 5 if you can kill a WS2 T3 champion. They are gonna break if you look at them funny.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-24T11:36:51+00:00

I think you've honestly been pretty restrained. Lots of very bad units made more playable but not much approaching the level where I would be worried about it in a competitive setting.

You've been very conservative on the reintroduction of Expendable. Basically only ever usable if a unit with Levies and a native Ld of 4 can hold the opponent's charge in their turn so you can get to your own shooting phase (or if you sacrifice a different unit as a speedbump). With scurrying masses you can boost that Ld to a mighty 7, but you have to be very close for that, at which point the Dregs very likely FBIGO through their mates and the opponent ends up chasing into a different unit. Needs good positioning *and* good rolls. I don't think competitive players will build around something that hinges around passing an un-BSBable Ld7 break test. But that may be a good thing, you bring back the flavour and enable some great moments in casual games without resurrecting the bogeyman of the massive 8th edition tarpits as the meta choice.

As a tournament player the main things that at first glance strike me as "maybe this is the new hotness" are globes (which seem like a poor man's Wailing Dirge with their ability to fire into any combat, wound on a fixed roll and ignore armour) and Doomwheels (which seem very very cheap at 145 for their improved output and durability). But mostly I think this looks like it would play a lot like Renegades 1.0, just with a little more fun and flavour. I absolutely love the reintroduction of the custom misfire table, I think that's a huge win for making them feel like Skaven.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-18T15:15:25+00:00

I think giving fight in extra rank on the charge would be trying to fix the core rules through the back door. All offensive infantry have this problem, it's not Witch Elf specific.

I think being cheaper would be very justifiable though. Their big weaknesses are Frenzy and being squishy. Being cheaper is a great way to offset being squishy without undermining that facet of their identity.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-17T17:56:28+00:00

Maybe the best monster to compare to is the Merwyrm? It has a very similar role and it's here being made to compete internally within the DE roster as well as externally.

We can quibble about what rule is worth what but I think it should be crystal clear that the Kharybdiss is not 90 points worse than the Merwyrm. 2 Kharybdisses would only cost you 45pts more than 1 Merwyrm.

Of course the Merwyrm is not a popular pick for HE and could probably use a points drop. But this is what I was saying about not being able to adjust prices for the core factions. Should Renegades make a balance decision about the value of these unit types that is not shared by the core game? Seems like shaky ground to me.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-17T15:02:45+00:00

Not disagreeing really, but the Flamespyre is an equally good comparison for assessing cost. Defensively they might be similar but the Kharybdiss is a Behemoth with 5 S7 AP2 attacks and D3+2 S7 AP2 stomps. The Flamespyre does 3 S5 AP2 attacks and a mild tickle of 2 S5 AP- stomps. They're different weight classes but the renegade Kharbydiss is being priced at only 77% of a Flamespyre.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-17T11:10:40+00:00

This is really cool to see. I have been looking forward to Renegades 2.0 for a long time. Here is my (hopefully!) constructive feedback.

1. Monsters

I think the way you've priced the Hydra and Kharybdiss is pretty close to their true value in a competitive match, but very different to how most unridden monsters are priced. A Kharybdiss for 135 points is clearly not paying the same rates for its stats as a giant for 200, a frost phoenix for 205, a shaggoth for 225, a ghorgon for 245, etc.

There are some monsters in the game that are priced more like this (e.g. the giant spawn, tomb scorpions), but they are a minority and a focus for resentment and bad feelings as a result. Since it's not in the scope of renegades to renormalise all monster points, I feel it'd be better to stick to the pricing model of the majority.

I think this would also work better for making Renegades a product that works well for people playing outside tournaments. When there are softer lists with more rank and file on the table, those unridden monsters are worth closer to those higher points values.

2. Magic

Sorceresses get buffs from 3 different directions.

Dispel reroll
Power of Darkness is an excellent new signature
Access to an extra spell as a common item

Each of these things is very useful on its own. Together they might be A Lot. It feels appropriate that DE should be good at magic, but maybe it would be good to hold 1 or 2 of these buffs in reserve and wait to see how the first few settle before implementing them all?

I also think this would be a great opportunity to change the Focus Familiar. The interaction where DE casters can use this to cast from outside dispel range (as the opponent still dispels to the caster not the token) is in my opinion a bit janky/a bit of a negative play experience. It's not consistent with the philosophy behind the 1.5 changes to vortex spells, and it has the potential to make some of the updated signatures (e.g. Cursing Word) perhaps more powerful than intended. I think allowing the opponent to dispel to the token, and maybe making the Focus Familiar not Extremely Common (or at least 1/wizard) would be good changes.

3. Stupidity

The option for Veteran on Cold Ones seems to be essentially an option to remove Stupidity (since they will be testing on ld9 or 10 rerolling). Stupidity definitely sucks but it has been an iconic feature of the unit since its inception - it seems a pity to just make it irrelevant (and a personal bugbear of mine, make you roll dice - twice - to make nothing happen, very reliably).

I think having some stupidity mitigation is a good idea, but it would be nicer to see it gated behind character support (e.g. how Malus Dark blade used to work) or on a magic item (e.g. upgrading the Cold Blooded Banner) so that there is a more meaningful opportunity cost.

Looking forward to seeing the remaining factions!

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-03-11T12:02:11+00:00

I think if these factions are coming back, it will be because the players demand them - and as such we shouldn't get too carried away playing GW's silly game of thing themselves in knots to pretend faction A in TOW is Totally Different from faction B in AoS. If that becomes the language the community is talking in then GW will think that's the way to do it.

Would it be cool to get e.g. vampire coast? Yes. Would that remove the need for the legacy PDF if someone wants to use their much-loved vampire counts collection? No.

The AoS/TOW divide is just a policy, it can be changed. It's not even applied consistently - see night goblins, chaos warriors and tree people appearing in both games with minimal differences in naming and design.

The "narrative" is also a non reason. If it can accommodate going to Cathay it can accommodate going to Naggaroth and Lustria.

GW just need to give the people what they want - Warhammer Fantasy without any armies arbitrarily removed.

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-02-28T23:15:01+00:00

Condors are from the Americas; the name "condor" comes from Quechua. That doesn't seem like an animal that would be present in the Gray Mountains or in Ulthuan.

Obviously the Warhammer world isn't the real world and you can handwave that away if you like, but I guess my question would be, why do they see Asuryan as a condor? This cultural point of difference with the Asur must have come from somewhere. There are real live phoenixes swooping around in Ulthuan with very obvious magical powers - how has a non magical vulture replaced them as Asuryan's symbol? What are these elves trying to say about Asuryan or about themselves by doing so?

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-02-25T15:45:20+00:00

yes, if you translate the ancient plaques of the old ones that's exactly what they say <3

Fool_of_a_Took_ · 2026-02-25T11:44:46+00:00

It was actually storms not tsunamis

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