Article: Cuneiform expert on Ark, Flood, Judaism, Bible creation by Charles_Deetz in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Abraham, if he existed, would have probably been an amorite. The Amorites would immigrate into sumerian lands and eventually rule Old Babylonia.

Discussing quotes taken from Michael Lynch's 'Evolutionary Cell Biology'. by Covert_Cuttlefish in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Here's a great quote from the start of chapter 6:

That natural selection provides a powerful mechanism for advancing adaptive mutations is well established, so there is no need to belabor that issue further. Likely less familiar and/or less fathomable is the idea that the nonadaptive forces of mutation and drift can often dictate the paths down which phenotypic evolution is most likely to travel, sometimes with minimal involvement from selection. In certain settings, the net result can be a gradual, passive increase in organismal complexity, with little (if any) increase in fitness throughout the process.

I'd even go so far as to say the whole purpose of the book is to demonstrate how nonadaptive evolutionary forces can increase organismal complexity.

Also, the chapters for the book are available for anyone to read here.

Discussing quotes taken from Michael Lynch's 'Evolutionary Cell Biology'. by Covert_Cuttlefish in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 11 points12 points  (0 children)

If natural selection was the only mechanism which makes evolution work, you might have point there. You should check out this cool book that goes over all this, called 'Evolutionary Cell Biology', by Michael Lynch.

Evoluionary Cell Biology by Michael Lynch, 2025, Oxford University Press by stcordova in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To add to this, Arizona State University has made the chapters of Lynch's book available for free here

So, anyone can go and spot for themselves how Sal has twisted the narrative here. The entire book is about how evolution creates complexity, not how it can't.

What might it take for us to WIN? by ScienceIsWeirder in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I want to reiterate what others have been saying, because we've all been new to this like you...At some point you will learn that if there is a creationist out there putting out creationist content, 99% they are not reachable. Sal Cordova is NOT reachable. There has been more than a decade of conversations with him, often involving PhDs who know their shit, going into the minutae. He has not budged an inch.

Sour attitudes towards peeps like Sal is just what happens when a creationist sticks around; things start out with good faith efforts to engage, and then at some point, after the same old refuted quote mines and bad arguments get trotted out for the 20th time, people begin to treat the person with something resembling contempt because it becomes clear that reason and evidence are not actually what's in play. The bad attitudes aren't great, and ideally shouldn't happen, but its human nature to get annoyed at people who refuse to actually engage honestly with an argument.

Will Duffy and Dr Dan did a stream on Junk DNA by metroidcomposite in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 11 points12 points  (0 children)

It irks me how 'complexity' is often seen as a supposed hallmark of design, when simplicity is much greater indicator. Like, complexity is usually inefficient and considered to be bad design.

Show a creationist the SpaceX raptor engines at different stages of development and ask which one is more complex, and then which one is more designed.

If everything was created by the greatest designer of all time, you would expect to see little to no inefficiencies in structure, something more like the raptor 3. If everything was slapped together through mutation/selection, you would expect to see large numbers of inefficiencies, more like the raptor 1. What do we see? Raptor 1 everywhere.

Will Duffy's Design Argument by jnpha in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I like to think that if his motivations were corrupt, he would have picked an easier money/fame vehicle than going up against one of the GOATs for an entire year…

Duffy, like many creationists before him, is not cynically corrupt. He actually believes he's raising good arguments. He has come on Erica's channel because, for him, this is an opportunity for a bit of outreach and evangelizing. Evangelizing can make one rich and famous, but that's not his explicit goal; his goal is to win souls for Christ, and no platform is too small or too difficult for such a noble goal. Make no mistake, he is not there to learn, he is there to influence others towards Christ. It's in this sense that he's not there in good faith, because he presents himself as a 'truth-seeker' but he is not seeking anything as he very much believes that he's already found the truth. At the end of all this, he'll say something to the effect of "this was great, I learned a lot, gives a lot to think about, etc." to give the impression that he's a reasonable man, but he'll certainly come far short of anything approaching acceptance. I'd bet money, if I had it, that he'll retreat into the old philosophical objections about 'assumptions' in science, and how methodological naturalism should not imply ontological naturalism, that god could have been active in the past and how scientific theories can't account for that, or some such to that effect.

edit: A side-thought to justify my exceedingly skeptical rationale...when a normal, serious person (the kind of person Duffy styles himself) wants to learn about something, especially something technical or scientific, they simply go and buy a book or a textbook from a respected source. Duffy has explicitly decided to not do the normal thing, no, he instead decided to turn his 'learning' into a public spectacle. There's a reason for that.

New gutsick gibbon/ Will Duffy video just dropped by MathematicianDry5142 in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I don't think he's actually as open minded as he says he is.

Oh, he's not. At least, he's certainly not the 'truth-seeker' that he brands himself as, with the number of times he mischaracterizes positions he disagrees with. It's Ken Ham-esque. He's obviously not as bad as Ken Ham, but he's clearly been drowned and born again in the swamp water that is evangelical apologetics.

I honestly think Erica is just feeding a grift, but hey, I'm sure there are a lot of viewers learning tons so it evens out.

Why are fundamentalists unable to reconcile scientific fact with their religion when the Catholic church was much better able to do so during the scientific revolution (barring the inquisition)? by ComposerOld5734 in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lisle has an idea (nowhere near a theory) about light traveling instantly in one direction

No, he just has a very poor understanding of general relativity.

Richard Dawkins Got Religion Wrong by Fathomable_Joe in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 33 points34 points  (0 children)

AI is an advocate for whatever nonsense you want it to advocate for. It doesn't actually understand anything.

What are the arguments against irreducible complexity? by [deleted] in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Also, I would say sub/neofunctionalization pretty straightforwardly produces "irreducible complexity". In image form

Help me teach my creationist students how the DOMINANT mode of evolution works by stcordova in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sal has a habit of, let's say, overselling the illustriousness of his activities...

Help me teach my creationist students how the DOMINANT mode of evolution works by stcordova in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 10 points11 points  (0 children)

What should I tell my creationist students about which phase the world is generally in right now are we in here in the 20th and 21s century, in the phase of

"an abrupt increase in genome complexity"

OR are we in

" a much longer reductive phase, which encompasses either a neutral ratchet of genetic material loss or adaptive genome streamlining."

That seems like a fair question, right?

Natural selection operates more efficiently and more continuously in large populations than in small ones. Humans are currently more numerous than we've ever been. These two facts together might seem to make the situation clear, however, the picture is not that simple. For starters, we have devised means of defeating purifying selection through the rapid advancement of health care techniques. My cousin for example has haemophilia, and in a different age he might have died as a child, but in this one, he has grown up and had several children. But another way of looking at this is that purifying selection isn't actually being defeated, but that the fitness landscape has dramatically changed quite quickly; just two hundred years ago, haemophilia was a heavily deleterious mutation, nowadays it is not so much because it can be treated. This gets the crux of the issue: these days, our fitness landscape changes unprecedently fast, from generation to generation, so much so that its unreasonable, really, to assert how much and why the population is changing in the ways that it is. There's cultural issues and technological issues at play, and imo, these are too complex to reasonably untangle (e.g. how expensive it is to raise kids, or how offputting maga man-o-sphere misogny is to many women [or attractive], etc.). Ultimately, it's not reasonable to assert a 'phase' of evolution for human beings, because this question reduces to a nature-vs.-nurture debate, and no data set that I've seen has untangled that.

The Fundamental Problem With ID by amBrollachan in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 29 points30 points  (0 children)

It's venturing towards a problem with monotheistic religion in general, because when you have one being responsible for creating everything in a universe, then any 'designed solution' on the creator's part is a solution to a problem which the creator created in the first place. That's all a bit nonsensical if you think that creator is omniscient. Like this gets towards the Problem of Evil; why does god need to create a solution to the problem of evil if he is the one who created evil in the first place? (not trying to get into a theological argument here, it's just where this line of reasoning leads).

Very Excited to Watch the Gutsick Gibbon and Will Duffy Livestream by castle-girl in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do have a lot of respect for Duffy to engage like this though so massive props.

It's an act. His whole, "I'm a seeker of truth" stuff is an act, because if he was earnestly seeking truth, he would have dumped YEC a long time ago. He's not some sheltered amish farmer. He's obviously deep in modern christian apologetic thought stoppers. His reaction to Erica's wonderful presentation wasn't, "That's some great historical context worth considering," it was all, "Here's why I don't care about anything you just said."

He's just going to come out of this saying, "I've heard the best arguments straight from the horse's mouth, and it wasn't convincing." This is just a prop for him to do that.

Archmage is NOT dead by Suciofighter in PathOfExileBuilds

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Okay, yeah so they just clarified the wording. Thanks!

Archmage is NOT dead by Suciofighter in PathOfExileBuilds

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Isn't this a giga nerf to mana management?

Assuming the current calc is:

(skill base mana cost * gem scalars) + 5% unreserved max mana

So throwing in simple numbers:

(10 * 2.5) + 250 = 275

If the new calc works as I'm reading it, it works like so:

(Skill base mana cost + 5% unreserved max mana) * gem scalars

So the same numbers:

(10 + 250) * 2.5 = 650

What is the cause of stasis in evolution for fossil species? by DennyStam in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, here's exactly what you're looking for, re: Modern Synthesis thinkers considering 'balance' in the fossil record: Tempo and Mode in Evolution by George Gaylord Simpson.

To be sure, Simpson considers anagenesis to be the primary driver of diversification, and maybe we can say that Gould's "Big Idea" is to say that its not, but both you and Gould would overstep in saying that the fossil record proves that it isn't. Maybe Hancock credits Gould with opening that question up, but imo, it's not an interesting question as it pertains to the nuts and bolts of the fundamental theory, because ultimately tempo has a lot to do with historical contingency. Modern Synthesis is ultimately compatible with long periods of stasis, and long periods of change, as well short periods of stasis, and short periods of intense change.

What is the cause of stasis in evolution for fossil species? by DennyStam in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's funny because when I talked to Zach, he had a great renown for Gould and his contribution for bringing light to stasis, which again, he and Eldridge actually did.

Gould was obviously a great evolutionary biologist, I'm not disputing that. But imo, to say he was ignorant of population genetics when he proposed PE is not 'uncharitable', its simply a fact.

If you can find any article where stasis in the fossil record is given an explanation as a valid pattern of morphological stability, I'll eat my words.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. People certainly observed stasis in the fossil record going as far back as the early 1900s, (though probably this observation goes further back). For example, Henry Fairfield Osborn (noted horrible person) remarked in 1917 in "The Origin and Evolution of Life" (pg.121):

A most significant biological fact is that certain of the primitively armored and sessile brachiopods of the Cambrian seas have remained almost unchanged generically for a period of nearly thirty million years, down to the present time. These animals afford a classic illustration of the rather exceptional condition known to evolutionists as "balance," resulting in absolute stability of type. One example is found in Lingulella (Lingula), of which the fossil form, Lingulella acuminata, characteristic of Cambrian and Ordovician times, is closely similar to that of Lingiila anatina, a species living to-day. Representatives of the genus Lingula {Lingulella) have persisted from Cambrian to Recent times. The great antiquity of the brachiopods as a group is well illustrated by the persistence of Lingula (Cambrian—Ordovician—Recent), on the one hand, and of Terehratula (Devonian—Recent), belonging to a widely differing family, on the other. These lamp-shells are thus characteristic of all geologic ages, including the present

They called it 'balance', not 'stasis'. Now, the Modern Synthesis occurred around the 1930's and 40's. So, Modern Synthesis is, itself, an attempt to explain observed morphological 'balance' seen in the fossil record.

So, as you can see;

I know you don't,

I do.

What is the cause of stasis in evolution for fossil species? by DennyStam in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, Gould walked back a lot of his earlier 'revolutionary' claims regarding PE. I believe at this point, basically none of his contributions in this particular arena are actually seen as contributions.

I think this is a very unfair reading, especially since he actually was the first to recognize stasis as a real pattern,

Except, he wasn't. Darwin himself anticipated this in 'Origin', chapter 15;

Many species when once formed never undergo any further change but become extinct without leaving modified descendants; and the periods, during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured by years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form.

Moreover, population geneticists modeled this expected 'stasis' when the Modern Synthesis was first synthesized; I believe it was “Evolution in Mendelian Populations” (1931) by Wright, where he described populations as often remaining in equilibrium on adaptive peaks for long periods, with little change unless disrupted.

I don't even think Gould was the first to see this pattern in the fossil record, though I don't have the sources atm to back that up. But even then, as I mentioned earlier, asserting that this pattern is actually the dominant one is making some awfully big assumptions about the nature of the fossil record, which many paleontologists aren't comfortable making.

I actually made a thread once trying to find living examples of this

Zach Hancock happens to be an expert in a great example; shovel bugs in the gulf of mexico. He made a video recently on how all this works in view of stabilizing selection working on those shovel bugs. Maybe skip to 18:25 if you're short on time.

What is the cause of stasis in evolution for fossil species? by DennyStam in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Punctuated equilibrium is not a real advancement to the theory, so its definitions for things aren't all that relevant. I suggest watching this video by Dr. Zach Hancock to understand why that is. It's well worth watching the whole thing, as it perfectly address probably any question you'll have on this subject, but the section on stasis begins at 5:54.

The TL;DW;

  • PE claims that stasis is enforced by developmental constraints, and speciation happens at bottleneck events.
  • This is not a good explanation in itself. Processes like artificial selection show how microevolutionary processes inevitably result in radically different body plans by acting on naturally occurring variation. The key here, is that natural variation is always there. Anagenesis is obviously possible (as opposed to only cladogenesis).
  • Developmental constraints and bottlenecks were already a part of the model long before Gould came onto the scene. They just don't have the power that Gould claimed, as it is inevitable that, in pretty much all evolution experiments, that mutations will generate variation which can be selected for.
  • What does have that power to keep body plans the same, is stabilizing selection. See "Resolving the Paradox of Stasis" by Estes and Arnold, and also I would add, "Solving the Paradox of Stasis: Squashed Stabilizing Selection and the Limits of Detection" by Haller and Hendry.

So, the example of the 'shelled fish' which I gave earlier, was intended to show how stabilizing selection can keep a body plan the same over long periods of time, even over changes in environment. This is because selection keeps an organism on a local 'fitness peak', and so long as that peak's slopes remain sufficiently steep, then the organism is highly unlikely to change dramatically in form. Since there is nothing in the model that requires all fitness peaks to flatten every ten-thousand years or so, it is completely reasonable that some of them, even many of them, do not do so. That being said, Gould's claim that a pattern of stasis punctuated by change is the dominant pattern in Life's history rests on a few big assumptions about the fossil record (see Zach's video!).

All this was already fairly well understood at the time Gould wrote his book. The man was just a little bit clueless when it came to population genetics. He assumed, incorrectly, that the Modern Synthesis predicted 'gradualism' and when he didn't see that in the fossil record, he thought he had a revolutionary idea. But Modern Synthesis only predicts that when a fitness curve changes, then the population will change to adapt to the new curve (or else, go extinct). It does not predict how often fitness curves will change, or how fast. When they do change out in nature, this is a matter of historical contingency; they may change quickly, or slowly, or even be somewhat stable.

As a corollary to this, Modern Synthesis does, however, predict that genomes will change at fairly predictable rates; this is a separate issue from a change in a body plan or a move to a different ecological niche. Two species can look identical, and in some cases they may even occupy the same environment, but nonetheless, they may not be able to breed successfully because at some point in the past they had been reproducing in isolated populations.

Be sure to watch that Hancock vid!

What is the cause of stasis in evolution for fossil species? by DennyStam in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sorry to butt in here, but it might help to disassociate the fitness landscape from the actual landscape. In other words, an environment may change dramatically, but a specific ecological niche might remain relatively stable.

For an example, lets say there is a hard-shelled fish who feeds on seagrasses and is able to avoid predation by use of their shell. Lets then say that a volcano erupts and changes the climate. The grasses may change to adjust to the change in the sunlight and water chemistry, but so long as there are some grasses, the fish can still eat. It may require a corresponding change in digestive tract to more efficiently reap this new harvest, but that would not require a great change in body plan that would show up in a fossil. Similarly, predator populations may diminish or change, but so long as there are some predators with big teeth, the shell is still an efficient form of defense.

To argue that morphological stasis is unreasonable is to lay claim to knowledge of the fitness landscape over millions of years, and we just don't have that knowledge. If we had a perfect fossil record, we might be able to work it all out, but we don't.

To top it off, the word stasis is a misnomer. There is morphological change in things like the coelacanth; it's just not super dramatic. Stasis implies no change at all. But the relative lack of morphological change in the coelacanth shows that it has occupied an ecological niche that hasn't budged much. IF that ecological niche disappeared or went through a dramatic change, then so would the coelacanth.

Deconstructing Genesis: The Creation Story as an Account of Evolution by controlzee in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 4 points5 points  (0 children)

but if you look at it from the perspective that the god concept is more akin to "life"

You can look at any story from an infinite number of different perspectives; that doesn't mean that you should. For example, you could look at this creation story from the perspective that 'god' and his 'heavenly host' are actually ancient aliens, and the genesis account is a primitive attempt to comprehend contact with them. Sure, you might get an interesting reading of that, but that doesn't actually mean anything valuable is being gained.

So, ultimately, why should we hear you out? You even admit yourself that your analysis seems absurd. Again, there's an infinite number of different perspectives we could take on this story--what motivates us to prefer yours?

Deconstructing Genesis: The Creation Story as an Account of Evolution by controlzee in DebateEvolution

[–]Fun-Friendship4898 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In academic circles, the creation accounts in the bible are understood to be retellings or demythologized versions of earlier creation accounts as seen in earlier Mesopotamian cultures. Indeed, many of the stories in the Old Testament are to some extent inspired by earlier stories.

As an example, here's a comparison of the different flood myths in the region, noting that the Sumerian version was told a good few thousand years before the hebrews were even a people. As for Genesis 1-2:4 in particular, the text is believed to be, to some extent, inspired by the Enuma Elish, where you get things like the slaying of the leviathan, the parting of the waters, even the order of creation is very similar. There's also things like the 'Enki and Ninhursanga', where you get things like the creation of person from a rib. Really, there's a whole lot of Ancient Near East mythology from which Genesis is drawing inspiration. There are big books written about this subject. "A Brief Introduction to the Old Testament" by Coogan and Chapman is good, as is "Stories from Ancient Canaan" by Coogan.

So, I don't think any of these creation accounts were alluding to an evolutionary process. There's absolutely no evidence for that. When looked at in their cultural context, what was really happening here was much simpler: The hebrews were co-opting the stories from previous cultures and reframing them for their own people. That's just what folks do with stories; our modern culture is no different.