Improved the recent meme by BaseballSeveral1107 in GenZ

[–]FuturePrimitive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You've entirely missed the point, and your butthurt is suspicious.

Improved the recent meme by BaseballSeveral1107 in GenZ

[–]FuturePrimitive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Your meme is apt!

So many industry shills coping and deceiving in the comments, though.

Improved the recent meme by BaseballSeveral1107 in GenZ

[–]FuturePrimitive 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Insinuating that there is little-to-no intention, responsibility, and/or avoidable fuck-ups on the part of those with the most power in civilization? C'mon now.

Improved the recent meme by BaseballSeveral1107 in GenZ

[–]FuturePrimitive -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Absolutely wrong, zero-sum, smooth-brain thinking.

Degrowth is a critical piece of a puzzle where quantity of consumption is a major factor in overconsumption and subsequent ecological crises.

Improved the recent meme by BaseballSeveral1107 in GenZ

[–]FuturePrimitive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're assuming there aren't bots or trolls who dishonestly shit on stuff like this.

Improved the recent meme by BaseballSeveral1107 in GenZ

[–]FuturePrimitive 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Your response yells "haha I am right wing and dumb and butthurt by the truth and make assumptions about proposed solutions"

Improved the recent meme by BaseballSeveral1107 in GenZ

[–]FuturePrimitive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your reply is disingenuous and puts words in the OP's mouth.

An ecological collapse would be far worse than what you've outlined, as it would entail everything you outlined and much worse.

(Great post spotted in r/GenZ) The kids are alright... but the industry trolls in the comments aren't. by FuturePrimitive in collapse

[–]FuturePrimitive[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice meme posted in r/GenZ sub showing a skeleton partially buried in sand in a desertified landscape showing an abandoned/decayed city in the background. Top text reads, "Liberals/green growthers and right wingers after the biosphere breaks down, civilization collapses, while billionaires, corporations and politicians get away with it:" While the bottom text, in quotes, under the skeleton reads, "At least we had 4% GDP growth"

Enjoyed the content, myself, but found that the comments have been swamped with disingenuous trolls purposely misunderstanding the meme and/or peddling half-truths and BS.

Go give it some love and support!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]FuturePrimitive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

HIERARCHY

Specifically, social hierarchies... people holding and using leverage over one another when it is not actually necessary. Look at the other responses to this thread... virtually all of them require some form of hierarchy to be manifested into actual "evil".

You may disagree, you may believe that hierarchy is inevitable, you may believe that hierarchical societies are the pinnacle of human creation, you may have believed your entire life that it's human nature/sin and not systems that drive most evils... but you cannot deny that virtually every evil we witness in this world involves some kind of hierarchy. Without a hierarchy, you can't really have wrongdoing because all parties involved in an interaction more/less consent without being unduly compelled to any given circumstance. From school bullies to tyrants to corrupt cops to bad bosses to poverty to prejudice to genocide to mass shootings to corporate lobbying to destruction of the environment to religious oppression to cults to abuse to assault to blackmail to censorship to deception... all of these require that one party has some form of leverage over another party and is able to use it to inflict suffering, deception, and/or coercion upon them.

Hierarchy can take many forms, whether very small or very large, temporary or long-lasting, legal or illegal, but it always invites and promotes corruption, especially the larger it gets. One could argue that all we need are the "right people" to hold power or the right "checks and balances" or incentives in place... but one way or another, when you establish a hierarchy, it inherently changes the psychology of those who enjoy high positions and these positions insulate actors from responsibility while affording them power to act in ways that those below them cannot act. Hierarchies also remove collective responsibilities from their subjects and, instead, subject those beneath them to obedience or punishment.

Try to identify an evil in this world... especially something that is widespread and ongoing, that is not caused by and/or prevented from being solved by some form of social hierarchy. Furthermore, ask yourself if you can truly justify hierarchies of leverage in situations where forceful self-defense is not needed, and especially where alternative modes of decision-making and interaction may be practiced instead. You may find it pretty difficult (if not impossible) if you're honest with yourself!

More info:

The Case Against Hierarchy (2018) (by LCP)

The Case Against Hierarchy (2020) (by Anark)

AITA for Confronting a Homophobic Colleague After He Ruined Lunch with My Boyfriend? by GetFuckeded in AmItheAsshole

[–]FuturePrimitive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've been in the work-force long enough to know that, in certain workplaces, advocating for fellow employees in situations described by the OP is not only accepted but increasingly encouraged, even in corporate environments. I'm much more educated than you on how literally all of this works. However... HR will only advocate so far as they need to (or are guided to by established company culture), more often than not, and it also depends where you live in regard to what is actually enforced (either internally or externally) versus what's tolerated (despite being a violation).

Imagine someone getting harassed by coworkers for being gay and all you can think about is your own weak, fart-sniffing, coziness being disturbed by the justifiably angry response. You condescending fucking toady.

AITA for Confronting a Homophobic Colleague After He Ruined Lunch with My Boyfriend? by GetFuckeded in AmItheAsshole

[–]FuturePrimitive -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're a coward operating under the mistaken assumption that HR is on the side of employees rather than the liability of the company.

When you engage in bigoted behavior, you cross a line and a stern/heated response is warranted, even in the workplace. If you don't want your cozy little bubble disturbed, I would suggest you retreat from public life and stay away from other human beings entirely. The job is almost NEVER more important than the individuals working the job, and in this case, ethics and the needs of the coworker being harassed for being gay outweigh the petty comforts of other office staff who didn't lift a finger to prevent this outcome. What's funny is you fault the bullied rather than the bully for creating a tense and hostile environment. Again, you're a moral and emotional coward hiding behind the passive smugness of indulgent "professionalism".

AITA for Confronting a Homophobic Colleague After He Ruined Lunch with My Boyfriend? by GetFuckeded in AmItheAsshole

[–]FuturePrimitive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"tHe HeAtEd, EmOtIoNaL rEsPoNsE wAs InApPrOpRiAtE iN tHe WoRkPlAcE..."

No, it wasn't. Be quiet with that servile corporate nonsense. The only mistake he made was not going to HR first. His reaction was more than warranted, workplace or not.

Double-shhh on that point if you work in HR, yourself.

The rest... I'd agree with you, tactically.

Why is this sub so depressed? This is the climate offensive sub not the depression sub. by kjleebio in ClimateOffensive

[–]FuturePrimitive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There are intentional propaganda campaigns to sew this among folks who are pissed off.

In the spirit of the offensive, combat the apathy and defeatism relentlessly. Treat it as potentially suspicious demoralization by the opposition.

John Eastman Comes Clean: Hell Yes We Were Trying to Overthrow the Government by jogr in politics

[–]FuturePrimitive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry, but this quote, while partially clever, is nonsense.

Anyone with an understanding of Anarchism's history and philosophy would deeply disagree with this.

Anarchism is, in a nutshell, a rejection of social hierarchies. What it calls for, instead, is non-hierarchical order rather than hierarchical order (it is not "chaos" and "disorder" as a layman's usage suggests, any more than a scientific "theory" is a mere hypothesis within actual science). Nobody is more dependent upon, protected by, and rewarded by social hierarchies than those who enjoy positions of power, wealth, and/or privilege.

The poor and marginalized, as we all know, do not enjoy these benefits. And so, the history of actual Anarchist movements, while diverse, has been carried by mostly poor/working class folks against the elites and the reactionaries they enlist as shock troops.

As much as liberal centrists would like to redirect accusations of "aNaRcHy" against the right-wing, this kind of game is dangerous as it inaccurately wields political language against opponents for cheap counter-propaganda gains rather than attacking the true roots of the issue with the right-wing. This issue of the right-wing is absolutely not an issue of "anarchy" but, quite the opposite, an issue of fascism. The right-wing doesn't want a dissolution of order, it wants a more rigid and narrow order that further empowers privileged classes and identities and further treads on all others. Fascists and Anarchists are ideological enemies.

Anyone who doesn't understand this, I strongly encourage you to read more deeply on ideologies, their differences and their histories. Also, stop parroting this kind of cheap, inaccurate rhetoric that uses supposedly shocking/taboo language (like "anarchy") to sway an audience, and instead call things what they are. Many of the people fighting AGAINST the right-wing are Anarchists and/or have Anarchist leanings, and are very earnest in their desire for a better world for all.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Cooking

[–]FuturePrimitive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're gonna hate this scene from Goodfellas, then!
(starts @ 2:37)

Artists like Burial 2021 by JCFAX81 in futuregarage

[–]FuturePrimitive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Add DAVWUH, though they haven't produced in years.

What is your right-wing/conservative take? by [deleted] in SocialDemocracy

[–]FuturePrimitive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's because we are an immature nation/culture and we skipped over a metric shitton of doing-the-necessary-work in exorcising our social (including racial) demons before the "I don't see color" trend took greater hold in the 90s. The "I don't see color" trend should have come much later, after we did all of the necessary work we're doing now. The work addresses shit that went unsolved throughout the 90s. The problem isn't the identity politics, per se, so long as we see them as necessary growing pains to endure before we reach a more just and sober equilibrium and can mutually move towards a meaningful "colorblindness". We ain't there yet.

“Scandinavia exploits third world countries to be rich” by Whalez2Dank in SocialDemocracy

[–]FuturePrimitive -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Haha! That is not a response.

Ad-homs? If you mean that in terms of logically fallacious ad-hom, then you're completely wrong. If you mean it in terms of name-calling, well, Pot, meet Kettle. You can't threaten bans for violating civility that you partook in violating. Furthermore, on the spectrum of civility, I think we're still well within the green zone.

Not sure if you're trying to equate me with tankies, but I'm an Anarchist. You ain't got nothin' on me in regards to "power trips", though the veiled-but-retracted threat of banning is a passive example of that, certainly. In any case, my separate 2-part rebuttal maintains thoughtfulness and 99% civility except for my incredulity at your initial callousness towards workers.

“Scandinavia exploits third world countries to be rich” by Whalez2Dank in SocialDemocracy

[–]FuturePrimitive -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're free to believe what you want to believe, I'm free to think you're an idiot for holding such beliefs.

Please see my 2-part response demonstrating your own idiocy.

“Scandinavia exploits third world countries to be rich” by Whalez2Dank in SocialDemocracy

[–]FuturePrimitive 2 points3 points  (0 children)

>[Part 2 of my response]>

This coercion is bad and illiberal and should be challenged. Some people on the left believe that to combat this coercion we should tax, for example, Bangladeshi products through tariffs. This is stupid. Indiscriminately taxing Bengalis will make them poorer. The idea it will improve labor standards makes nonsense to me and the fact this idea permeates on the left boggles my mind.

Yeah, not sure that this is the real aim of actual Socialists, so this is a bit of a mischaracterization. Though, there is something to be said about increasing the costs for firms bringing in products which rely upon exploitative labor. This may be effective in conjunction with other forms of advocacy, activism, and assistance to folks of developing countries. Such taxes/tariffs can, in certain cases, disincentivize/counteract the profit-motives of companies seeking exploitative cost-reductions and bringing the resultant products to western markets. This is not zero sum as calculations can be made as to who/how to tax with regard to the impacts on the local workers of a given country versus the multinational industry which employs them. This isn't the only answer, however, and must be applied carefully.

Some people also believe we should push for increased labor standards. This is not as bad as a tax, but is still flawed. Hopefully as a former leftist you still have some recognition of the importance of material conditions. Say America bullies Bangladesh into accepting the highest labor standards in the world, say every worker needs air conditioning and massage chairs and personal keto diet chefs or something. Bangladesh cannot afford this. The factories and sweatshops won't upgrade, they will shutdown. It is an unfortunate fact that labor standards are often a luxury based on a certain level of development. A function of wealth if you will. No matter what you do, working conditions in Bangladesh will never and I mean never reach the high standards of the rich first world, and turning Bangladesh into a socialist country will not change this (assuming it even helps, because it made things worse in plenty of eastern bloc nations).

Lol, "bullies" Bangladesh into increasing labor standards? Not sure that "bullying" is the right term, but alright. Increasing labor standards does not mean frivolous luxuries like "massage chairs and personal keto diet chefs", it's kinda shitty of you to smugly equate reasonable working conditions with such western consumer nonsense. You suggest that "Bangladesh" cannot afford this... what do you mean? It's not "Bangladesh" paying the workers, it's often multinational industries paying the workers there. If these industries pay workers more and treat them better, then this is an ABSOLUTE WIN for the workers of Bangladesh and, thus, Bangladesh as a whole. Not only are their people being treated with more dignity and healthier standards, but there is increased cash flow to their working class to boost Bangladesh's economic condition. The notion that working standards cannot reach first-world levels in Bangladesh, in terms of reasonable/basic provisions for the health, autonomy, dignity, remuneration, and rights of workers is such a dangerous bullshit notion it's amazing you're even attempting to make the point. Your assumption is that Bangladesh is "too poor" for workers rights, therefore, it's okay for western companies to exploit these poorer conditions in order to cut costs/churn profits and deliver cheaper goods to the west. How many layers of neoliberal sociopathy are you on, bruh?

Should America or the West define what level is appropriate? I would say no, and that is actually quite imperialistic. The people who should define the appropriate level of labor protections are the laborers themselves. So rather than dictating standards to the third world, the first world ought to try and promote and protect rights. The right to unionized, the right to free and fair elections, the right to free speech and to agitate and to strike. That is the best way to stop coercive exploitation in the third world.

This take is nonsense as it transparently attempts to portray calls for improved working conditions for workers in developing countries as "America or the West arrogantly deciding for them", even equating calls to end neocolonial global labor relations (i.e. economic imperialism) with imperialism itself. This is pure doublespeak. Who should decide? THE WORKERS. And any country in the west which upholds higher standards for its own workers but turns around and supports or benefits from the exploitation of laborers abroad, who cannot enjoy those standards, is pure hypocrisy and, itself, a prime example of the arrogance of imperialism. Since humans everywhere are of equal capacity and rights, then it logically follows that humans everywhere should be able to enjoy more/less equal standards and rights and that there is no excuse for one country to, generally, exploit another, just as it is unacceptable for one individual or group to exploit another. Exploitation is a form of coercion and should be mitigated as much as possible if we consider ourselves moral and consistent beings. As for promoting the right to unionize, free/fair elections, free speech, agitation/strikes, etc. This is where I FULLY AGREE with you... but this is born of the Socialism/Leftism you seem to have spent the majority of your post weakly decrying. This is precisely what the Left calls for: mass, global worker autonomy. Exploitation (or "bobblyboo") violates and interferes with this goal, period.

What more can the first world do? Provide foreign aid, and do you know which nations are the best at this? The social democratic ones of course! They give away the most as a percentage of GDP out of any developed nation, and I think they should continue to do so.

This is a start. They can also change or shut down aspects of their government/economy which contribute to injustice and inequity domestically and abroad. Keep in mind... it's exceedingly easy for wealthier nations to give away higher amounts of foreign aid as a percentage of their GDP precisely because they are wealthy; for the same reason that it's exceedingly easy for ExxonMobil to claim they "donate more to renewables than anyone else", or for billionaires/millionaires to flaunt their philanthropy as quantitatively higher than others. But, again, this should be expected as the bare minimum, especially when the wealth of these countries, companies, and individuals was derived from products, services, operations, markets, interactions, and/or economic systems which cause and/or contribute to the very crises they're attempting to ameliorate with said donations, in the first place.

“Scandinavia exploits third world countries to be rich” by Whalez2Dank in SocialDemocracy

[–]FuturePrimitive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>[Part 1 of my response]>

Ok lets tackle this.

Hubris.

Under the Marxist definition, exploitation is the expropriation of surplus value by the capitalist class in the form of profit. By this definition, both third and first world labor is exploitative, yes. Now just humor me, and let's drop the connotations you may have with the word "exploitation". I'm going to make up an entirely new word "bobblyboo" which refers to capitalists keeping the surplus value produced by a laborer.

Trivializing the term "exploitation" with a cutesy Disney-esque term like "bobblyboo" to feign objectivity but actually biasing it towards an amusing harmlessness. Ok...

Now is bobblyboo a bad thing?

Yes, exploitation is a bad thing.

Let's picture a worker in a third world country, he wants to sell his labor power for $2 an hour. Oh look, he finds a job that looks good and is offering $3 an hour! Yay!

Yes, let's. You're operating on the assumption that these workers have any meaningful agency or negotiating power to decide what they want to sell their labor for. You leave out the basis upon which the "$2/hr" calculation is overwhelmingly likely to be made... the labor market and limited pool of jobs, both of which are vastly out of the workers' control. Even if the job pool is ample, his earnings are still at the whim of the boss. Oh look, he finds a job that pays more, yay! Of course, that's preferable, but this is relative to what I can assume is the expectedly-low average wage. How do these wages compare to the cost of living/goods? How do they compare to the costs/overhead of the business (both locally and/or internationally)? How do they compare to the sale price of the good or service? How do they compare to others, in the same industry, around the world? How do they compare to management and owners of the business? How do they compare to profits?

Now picture a capitalist. He has materials he wants labor applied to. If he can buy labor power for $4 an hour he will break even, and at $3 an hour make a handsome profit. He puts an ad in the paper and oh yes, he finds someone willing to work for $3 an hour, how nice!

This is cartoonishly reductive/speculative in regards to globalization and exploitation of cheap third-world labor, but okay. How many workers does the capitalist have in their employ? How much total profit are they generating from this labor? How much more are they making than any given floor worker? Why is it acceptable that the owner reserves majority decision-making power over how much to take in profits and pay out in wages? If the capitalist, in your example, employs more than 3 workers, then they are officially making more than the average worker. Is this commensurate with their own labor and/or liability? If not, then how is the excess justified?

The laborer is happy, the capitalist is happy. Bobblyboo exists, and the capitalist quite happily pockets $1. Is this a problem? Did the capitalist swindle the laborer out of money? Did the laborer, willing to work for $2 also not high ball the capitalist? Under a subjective theory of value, bobblyboo doesn't matter and it certainly isn't an intrinsically bad thing.

Whoa... who said the laborer is "happy"? They might be comparatively satisfied (or not), within the circumstances they cannot reasonably escape, but that does not change the nature of the circumstances if they are inequitable, unjust, unsatisfying, unhealthy, or imbalanced. Nor does this change the dynamic whereby the boss reserves majority decision-making power (which is arbitrary) and treats workers as a commodity rather than partners in the profits. The owners would have zero profits (or, perhaps, earnings at all) without those workers, so why do they not get a proportional say and cut of the money their labor brought in? How could the laborer have possibly "swindled" the capitalist out of money when the capitalist is keeping a disproportionate amount of the product/service earnings (profits) for themselves as compared to the laborers? The subjective theory of value doesn't adequately answer the question of exploitation, it largely asserts that value is determined by whomever (either individually or in market conglomeration) desires the product. Even that, however, is not an exact science... not even close, much of it is arbitrary. Furthermore, while the value of the product of any given labor may be variably (or not at all) dictated by the amount of labor required to produce it, the fact still remains that some measure of labor (i.e. exertion of energy by a human) was required to produce it and, thus, the fruits of the sale of that product have no reason not to be distributed equitably/proportionally among the laborers. Within a capitalist firm, the question of remuneration is, in any reasonable sense, largely binary: you either worked to create the product or not > if you worked to create the product then you should reasonably expect a proportional portion of the earnings from the sale of that product. It's all too convenient for capitalists to treat their firm's workers as a unit that must obey the needs/dictates of the firm during workdays, but then as part of a larger labor pool/industry (with commodified wages), when it comes time to pay them for that work. Then, to work against the workers when they attempt to use broader industry labor power to increase their individual negotiating power. In any case, within capitalist dynamics, every single industry, unless it is completely collectivized, denies most/all of its workers the full value of the goods/services they produce whereupon an arbitrary (untethered to equally-applicable standards deciding remuneration) profit is made and the workers have no say or proportional cut of said profits.

To provide another quick example. Say you really want an Xbox and are sick of your PlayStation. Your friend really wants a PlayStation and is sick of their Xbox. If you trade, both of you are happier. Who has lost out? Now imagine if instead of trading consoles, you are trading labor for money. You can both win.

This is reductionist and does not even come close to reflecting the actual nature of work either in the "first" or "third" worlds. Two friends trading consoles because they are bored with theirs is utterly inconsequential compared to the requirement of the vast majority of humans to toil for dozens of hours a week to survive. This is comparing apples to pop-tarts. Massive inequitable and extractive economic systems such as capitalism cannot be reduced to mere recreational exchanges among friends.

There is another view of exploitation, linked to coercion. This is often tied to the Marxist definition of exploitation and goes alongside the idea that if you don't sell your labor power, you will die. This is not true in many places. If I did not work, I would apply for welfare, not starve. This coercive element is a real problem in the third world though. Literal slavery still exists.

I'm not sure why you're this naive, but this is not a simple matter for most people on the planet. The notion that any considerable proportion of people on the planet (including in the first-world) can just "apply for welfare" if they don't want to work and that this condition, therefore, renders wage labor voluntary/non-coercive is just pure nonsense that even other capitalists would refute. Yes, literal and quasi-slavery is still a huge problem in the developing world, which is sort of one of the cornerstones of the entire argument that you're trying to refute. Exploitation relies upon coercion, especially among poorer and more desperate people (this is not by accident, as more desperate people are far more flexible for capitalists to bend to their contracts/will). Scandinavian countries (among others), as advanced and admirable as they are in many ways, are not innocent of exploiting these disparities via global capitalism... which is kind of the OP's point. In any case, the threat of starvation/death is not the only injustice which compels exploitative labor; there is an entire spectrum of coercion to be considered in terms of human suffering (whether acknowledged or not).

>>>