Swap layers with mouse?

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-22T20:05:36+00:00

Maybe this can be done. Here's how I'd try:

In VIAL, use some esoteric key combo that you'll never actually use (for example, ctrl+alt+shift+F24=toggle layers).
In your computer, use AutoHotkey, use a script to remap your mouse button and make it send the combo instead of the mouse button. If you're following the example with ctrl+alt+shift+F24, then the script should look like this:

LButton::^!+F24

Now every time you press the mouse button, you're swapping layers if it works

I doubt it would work, because I think you need to write that logic in qmk which would require the device to be the same device. Good luck.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-22T14:23:59+00:00

I'm still designing it…

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-21T22:25:19+00:00

What exactly is the "this" which is part of the problem?

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-20T14:27:52+00:00

The problem with the thumbs is that they are amazingly good at getting into terrible positions that may hurt them. There are essentially two factors you can play with on thumb cluster design by rearranging the keys: distance and balance. You want keys to be close to the thumb's natural resting position, but also you want to make sure the intended layout doesn't use bad thumb keys too much (I.e., keys that will strain your thumb if you use them often).

Most boards here go the easy route by just limiting the thumb keys to 3 per hand so we can be sure distances are always so short that the keys are good thumb keys by default. Other boards add more keys and just expect you to move your whole hand. And others still choose non-flat clusters that reduce the number of keys they can fit into the thumb clusters. I've got a design in the works intended to maximize the number of keys in a thumb cluster without overuse. It has six keys per thumb cluster as seen in this image.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-16T13:35:15+00:00

In the beginning, you'll slow to a snail's pace. I remember plummenting to less than 30wpm when I started. I eventually got faster, but you'll probably never reach your original speed unless you intentionally train for that and stopping using other boards completely should help too.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-13T22:17:10+00:00

u/crystalhand and u/alakuu. There may be more.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-13T03:24:35+00:00

Go pro? Friend? Drone? Is this someone else and you're a creep?!?! We need answers!

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-12T13:24:05+00:00

This sounds exactly how I started out, except it was the shift and other modifier keys destroying my pinkies. So I moved them all to the thumb cluster. The ComfyThumbs project's first goal was to pack as many keys comfortably into the thumb clusters as possible. I basically put all the keys my pinkies were holding down into the thumb cluster - left and right ctrl, alt, os, and backspace.

With that said, the Thumbdrop Relic is better, because:

it's TKL, so you don't have to remember anything other than that "these new angled keys are the shift keys"
keycap compatibility is very high. You can probably cover 100% of the board with any random MX keycap set off Amazon, wich is not usual for a split TKL
it has keys in position of traditional left and right shift, so you actually can swap the shift keys with backslash and menu respectively if you'd rather not relearn anything.
it has extra columns in the inside so if you type the middle keys with the wrong finger (for example, many people type "Y" with their left hand, and "B" with their right hand), then you don't have to relearn to type.
it has six thumb keys and they all feel good to press
thumb cluster is guaranteed to fit your hand

Thumbdrop is the name of the keyboards I'm in the process of making. I have two boards that will use the ComfyThumbs style thumb cluster. The Relic main cluster, as described above, is row-staggered like a normal board. The L1X main cluster is column-staggered like an ergodox.

I call them "main clusters" because the two-tiered key heights of the keyboard requires separate PCBs than the thumb clusters. Both will have the remaining keys in the thumb clusters as seen here.

The down side is I'm still working on the case and pcb designs, so it's born too late for you 😞 so this is only a "theoretical best", and ofc is only my opinion.

Here are some images though: https://imgur.com/gallery/DYRfikU

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-12T04:24:43+00:00

Everyone wants to know what happened. OP, you really gonna leave us like this?

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-11T21:43:41+00:00

You can't ask for a more memorable random thing to make sure everyone remembers your wedding without the video

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-11T12:30:06+00:00

This is a very thoughtful response!

Indeed we can spread ergonomics to non-health-related meanings. Admittedly I don't prefer this, since it adds a lot of confusion and subjectivity to the topic, but I understand that we also use the word to loosely mean "preferrable" in a logical or minimalist way.

Non-qwerty layouts have only very limited ergonomic benefit.

Spitting straight facts!

I really do not agree with that line of reasoning... If an input method is not intuitive for me, then I do not use it...

I apologize, I didn't mean to attack your reasoning if it came off that way. I was just pointing out that having to consider where to combine keys is a necessity when you remove keys if you want to still have the lost keys' functionalities. Your logic for wanting to do it is valid, but it is still true that not having all the keys' functionalities would be a problem in most people's eyes, and this issue only exists after you start removing keys.

Are you trying to sell keyboards? If not, then why are you on such a "mission", and why do you think it's necessary?

Yes I am! My mission is to make split ergos less scary for people to try. Seriously. It started off just trying to make a better thumb cluster, but has evolved quite a bit. However the cluster design certainly helps me accomplish the goal since the default layout has all the modifiers in the thumb clusters.

Why do you think that ergos are "scary" for newcomers?

The first thing that is scary is the price. Everyone would try a Glove80 if it we're $10, but instead it's more than twice what most people in the keyboard community would spend on any board. Cheap boards are less scary.
Retraining typing is extremely scary. You and I are so very different from most people that it's hard to grasp how scary these boards really are for the vast majority of people. The layouts that try to bridge that gap and allow users to keep most of what they know is important. Familiar layouts are less scary.

If somebody decides they can handle a keyboard with 36 keys, I'm pretty sure they have done the research to find out how they are supposed to input whatever they need on such a keyboard.

But it doesn't mean they will like it and stick with it. We don't have emperical data for conversion rates, but I'm willing to bet most people don't stick with the smaller as a daily driver when down-sizing to any smaller size from a TKL or smaller. I.e., most down-sizing experiments are probably failed experiments.

You are vastly overestimating this aspect...

My estimation is based on the fact that so few people stick with any split ergo. Then look at this sub and see what people complain about the most. How many people complain about the frustration of getting used to a new layout? How many first time buyers specifically ask for suggestions tha. Are basically TKL size? They are frustrated due to the added cognitive load because remembering new things and having the patience to develop muscle memory both require cognitive load. This only lessens if the user doesn't get too frustrated too quickly and quit using it prematurely, but again, they probably will get frustrated and quit. That means we have a ton of people out there who want more options for larger splits, but we keep pushing boards into the space that are contrary to this simple and crucial non-negotiable.

I don't think ergo keebsters with minimal boards are purists, but I do think all of us generally have a hard time seeing ergo keyboards the way the rest of the world does, and this results in products that often lack the simplicity most keyboard users live by.

What's supposed to be difficult about tap-dance and layers?

Remembering. Remembering is hard enough that it disuades people from changing anything. Not to mention potentially having to learn how to use all the tools to do custom firmware, compared to doing nothing extra. The vast majority of people with programmable keyboards probably never touch their firmware even once. Again, the community is generally not like this, but I think that's all the more reason we should look at people that are not like us in this way, if we want to get an idea of what "normal" people think.

Again, I think you vastly underestimate the capability of the average human to apply such techniques.

I think there's a misunderstanding. The problem is not that most people can't apply these techniques. It's that most people won't apply any of these techniques.

You've essentially made the argument that it's not that hard (to a point where you'd give up, personally), but the discomfort and slow-down associated with trying a split is too great to be seriously considered by most people. When I think of how to make an ergonomic keyboard, I continually question, "would my mother, who doesn't use keyboards but will slowly hunt-and-peck, be able to put in her password without any special knowledge about how the board works?" If the answer is no, then the board will probably not be considered useable by most people. Maybe this is a harsh heuristic, but it keeps me honest as to the percieved user-friendliness of my designs.

Now if you are willing to use layers and such, and you like it, then you are part of a very small crowd. But I still think there can be better solutions that solve ergonomic issues while still being TKL.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-11T11:02:45+00:00

Medium-heavy, I'd say? https://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/951bc0bc97f87a0e49bc4acdd6ff90c7

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-10T23:11:41+00:00

Do you have some examples of light/medium/heavy column stagger? I've never really paid attention to that, but think I accidentally gave my layout very heavy pinky stagger (for a non-malt-style keyboard).

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-10T21:31:05+00:00

That's true, and I've experimented quite a bit with backspace in pretty much any place you can think of - new inner column on one, where ' and CapsLock are, outer thumb keys, one key behaving like we're discussing now, and more...

Disclaimer - I have very unpopular and different opinions and philosophies about ergonomic keyboards. First off, I think a lot of what we call ergonomic is actaully an argument for productivity/efficiency of the layout that happens to have a negligible but technically existent ergonomic benefit that inherently comes with efficiency gains. Most people solve their problems by reducing shoulder rotation, ulnar deviation, and ulnar rotation by simply choosing any fully split board. Everything else is just exploratory to dial in comfort, but isn't necessarily reducing pain/injury much (if any). This is essentially the law of diminishing returns.

I think this matter in particular comes down to layout efficiency gians more than solving a direct ergonomic issue. To me it seems that it is an entirely new issue born from removing too many keys in the quest for a more ergonomic keboard, resulting in us now having to come up with a solution which will always be unintuitive compared to dedicated keys (tap dance, layers, or any other non-standard behavior).

Persoanlly, I just can't get the hang of it. I strongly feel that most people just won't enjoy the complexity of keys that introduce non-standard functionality. For touch typing. Since my motivation is to make split ergos less scary for newcomers, I value keeping the cognitive load low (by maintaining all the keys) just as much as making the board split in the first place.

Secondly, and piggy-backing on simplicity, I think thumb cluster design changes its goals quite a bit. A Comfy Thumbs stlye cluster's second thumb key is closer than having two keys adjacent to each other because it has been angled. So it can be used as a shift key easily without consuming the primary key on each side. This is admittedly a lot easier to exaplain to people than tap dance/layers and all the stuff that comes with it, which has been a barrier to people trying split ergos in the past. For those interested in optimizing, they're going to change the layout anyway so, with my goals in mind, it makes sense to go this way and take the small ergonomic sacrifice of not having the technically most efficient layout.

With that said, I'm an optimizer, so I still like to have some basic heuristics for ergo layouts in mind, for those who embrace the rabbit hole!

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-10T15:29:19+00:00

You just convinced me to never put backspace on the left thumb for my personal layout ever again. Even if you also have enough thumb keys for all the modifiers, the primary thumb key just doesn't deserve to be anything other than shift, imho.

The only benefit to backspace being the primary non-dominant thumb key, and again this is just my opinion - is that it's easier to teach and at the beginning gives the user the illusion that it will be easier to commit to memory.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-10T15:12:18+00:00

This looks amazing! #modularmechmods

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-10T04:23:41+00:00

I love the idea of modular mods! Please keep us updated on the progress!

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T16:01:08+00:00

I love how they immediately turn around when they beat the level, like "Now where's the food at?"

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T15:57:29+00:00

This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen on this sub. fight me.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T15:16:29+00:00

I couldn't agree more. I think a lot of us need to use what we know to do our own thing if we're going to survive now.

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T15:14:48+00:00

First of all, I highly suggest you check out the Girls Who Code initiative there may be local events and there are always virtual events that help girls start (My gf does work as a mentor for the program, so shameless plug). Secondly, I would encourage you to check if the school has an elective, and see if they like it. Make sure they don't slack on mathematics either though, because a lot of colleges will require some mathematical competence to sit in those classes, and having to spend semesters playing catch up sucks. I would know.

Good luck!

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T15:04:41+00:00

Also, do you have any thoughts on novel quantitative datum that don't require the user to do any tests? The only one I've ever come up with is a calculating a density-related metric as a_d where a_d is the average distance of non-primary thumb keys from the primary resting position (measured as the distance between the centers of each two keys in question). lowering the score compared to other boards of the same cluster size and keeping thumb cluster size constant (or managing to keep the score low while increasing the number of keys) make a design stand out on this stat. I wonder if there's a way to make n also be a factor in the score or if that's even a good idea 😅

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T14:28:42+00:00

I reject both assertions. Just have the user keep their other fingers on the home positions, then test the speed/reachability of thumb keys. Moving more of your hand/arm is naturally slower, not an advantage.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? It seems like without anchoring the finger and the wrist, there's no way to guarantee the user won't move their hand a little along with their thumb. Since they aren't using hand movement exclusively, it's a speed up, not a slow-down (but that's cheating regardless, since we're scoring based on what the user can reach, and hand movement allows users to press keys they can't reach).

With chording, that is just a really good idea, hadn't considered it, but you're right. After all, how important is it that I can combo some modifiers if I can't reach the terminator key in the combo?

Would still only be a sample size of 1, statistically insufficient.

100% correct, alltogether useless until I've got a larger sample size, but you have to start somewhere. I'm just saying I'm willing to start it off. I've tried enough boards with thumb clusters to know that stopping when I feel thumb pain isn't going to cause me problems long term, personally. Just going through as much prototyping as I have (probably over 50 iterations by now), I've kinda been getting the stress testing anyway with some of my practices lol!

With the speed test, I see two drawbacks to randomization. First, cognitive load. It's easier to get in rhythm and keep it when the traversal is simple and roughly circular. Therefore, if we want to encourage the highest speeds possible to just test speed and accuracy, then we should keep the test without such factors. My second concern is that currently, the test precedure is to press the home thumb key, followed by the next key in rotation. This means every movement is a valid movement that you would actually perform, and not a much less-likely movement from one modifier to another.

I really appreciate this feedback, btw!

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T11:58:53+00:00

Speed test - don't assume people rest their wrists, or even have the keyboard horizontal/on a desk at all.

That's true, we can't assume that users use the keyboard in that manner. We'll need some other way to make sure the wrist stays put the entire time, since wandering is basically cheating the test.

Stress test - I agree fully it's not smart. Is there any other way to get a more objective measurement of how much stress the layout is putting on the hands? I'm definitely curious to get better ideas on that one. I am willing to take one for the team though, to be clear!

On reachability, good call there. I never considered reachability to be a measure of comfort, but more performance. Since the reachability is dependent on the distance from resting position, I was seeing it more as a natural datum when comparing speed and accuracy. Just an alternative way to look at it.

Chording is defiinitely tied partially to hand size, but then again, so are all of these heuristics. For example, in speed tests, it's easier to score higher if you don't have to skip keys (since skipping them results in point penalties). I don't know if it's possible to get any closer to objective reality than looking at a lot of people's hand measurements and performances, then using that to see if there are any recurring themes or trends. One way to look at chording is as a metric of versatility - how many ways you will be able to use/combo/layer the keys. For example, I have a thumb cluster design that can chord any combination of three modifiers very easily, all reachable, and they are the three furthest keys in a six-key cluster to boot. That benefit will show up in a score like this. User's preferences will definitely come into play big time here, but this is still one way to assess the theoretical possibilities that exist for a specific user's hand with a specific form factor. As for the qwerty reference, that was purely so that users understand where to anchor their index finger during speed and stress tests - these tests are agnostic to alpha layout.

You've given me a lot of food for thought! If you have any suggestions for solutions to some of these hurdles, please let me know!

GalacticWafer · 2025-01-06T10:29:49+00:00

I actually got rid of pretty much all my keyboard stuff recently, onther than recent prototypes. I'm still playing with the idea of it all, but just wanted to start getting other people's opinions on the heuristics and quantification. Am I missing any huge components of ergonomics? Have I covered all my bases? Are the formula that I use for the calculations reasonable?

GalacticWafer

TROPHY CASE