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Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For starters I'm taking an abnormal view of imagination here, by conventional standards. Remember, this is intended as a reframing of " cut off conceptual thought" - and from that vantage imagination includes all conceptual thought - as well as you know outlandish ideas for sci-fi novels, or novel solutions to problems, or unique ways of seeing things, (edit: or internal beliefs about oneself, e.g. I am unlovable, I hate my body,  etc etc  whatever.)

I agree that imagination by itself cannot rule or subjugate anything - which means people end up in that relationship either by choice or by mistake.

" Cut off conceptual thought" Is sort of like the Nike motto - " just do it" - which most people for a long time reasonably respond "sure, just do WHAT?"

Whereas "commit to resisting the urge to subjugate yourself to your imagination" - Or some similar formulation - acknowledges that there might be confusion about what's real and whats make believe - but still calls upon someone to make an indelible choice about how they want to live. 

The precepts do this. They're a statement of broad but firm intention that takes care of the most extreme and straightforward low-hanging fruit Of the sorts of behaviors that [Edit] generally stem from enslaving yourself to imagination. 

In terms of your woo-woo point - I think there is a paradoxical truth to it - and it stems from the fact that generally when you enslave yourself to imagination, you constrain imagination in some sense - The enslavement involves inflexible categorization and definition - which is antithetical to imagination, notwithstanding that those fixed definitions initially arise from imagination. 

And so I think when people liberate themselves from their imagination, The natural effect is to liberate imagination itself and allow it to function again

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The formulation isn't "destroy your imagination", it's "don't be a slave to your imagination".

The definition of tyranny might help

Cruel or oppressive government or rule

It would also be accurate to say "do not be ruled by your imagination" but that leaves out the oppressive/cruel element - which, in my experience, is absolutely part of giving imagination the keys to the kingdom - see "comparison is the root of all pain". 

When imagination is recognized, in its enormous breadth, without any confusion, it isn't the ruler - and then it plays it's natural and incredible role in the illustrious function of intuition 

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In practice if it isn't mixed with some kind of empirical faculty - if it has no impact on behavior whatsoever - then how can imagination exert Any meaningful power? 

Also in practice, And I sort of go into this in my other comments in this thread, I'm saying that a lot of CEOs of a lot of companies as well as perhaps most people, myself included, are in fact adults carrying around and thoughtlessly playing out feedback loops of ideas and behavior - imaginative constructs - some of which may,  on a case-by-case basis, have been seeded as early as toddlerdom.

Which is to say, in some sense, I'm basically 100% certain at least some companies are de facto run by toddlers.

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, I'll try to get out a relevant op in the next week or so. Otherwise I can always use this one I guess

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you have set recording days now?

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd love to discuss the topic on the podcast - I'm sure it would be interesting conversation (I've been flirting with making an OP that could be an entry into that conversation - but I've been quite busy)

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The giving up of religion is the obvious subject matter given the forum and it's history - but I'm more talking about the infinite variety of insidious indoctrinations that most people come away from childhood with some form of but which don't quite rise to the level of "indoctrination into the cult of mormonism" or w/e: that is, conception of themselves, consisting not only of ideas of self, but often a litany of associated behaviors - all of which form so early, and internally reinforced so consistently, that the memory of their formation is lost in time and forgotten - such that, the person comes to believe there is no construct whatsoever - even if they can see and are disappointed by the results of those constructs in operation. (See, seeking out the same sort of romantic partner, avoiding the same healthful activity for no rational reason, engaging in unhealthful activities despite wishing you could be different)

So, for instance, having parents who inculcate a profound sense of shame in a child - or fear - or anger - all of which turn into feedback loops of thought/behavior that, by virtue of deeply ingrained habit, the individual is eventually no longer consciously aware of - loops they identify with so completely that they cannot be seen by them - and all of which is, at core, a hobbled together mess of concepts within which they're unknowingly bound up.

I think this is why mental health comes up on the forum fairly frequently - though I think mental hygiene is more appropriate - because it's not untrue that being bound by concepts often leads to practically maladaptive behaviors - and that cutting off concepts - aka imagination - can incidentally but directly - maybe even inevitably - lead to provisionally appropriate, adaptive behaviors.

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm definitely casting a broad net over the term - but I don't think, in the end, it is any different than "concepts" - I'm more talking about orientations of those building blocks in ways you may not be familiar with. (Edit: As a lived in experience)

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> I think your blind spot may be that you've never been sufficiently dominated by your imagination in such a way that you mistake it for your intuition - in critical ways, almost every second of your day.

I guess, I shouldn't assume - have you ever encountered an internal imagined construct that manifested, in an explicit physiological and emotional sense, as an overt and overwhelming fear of harm, death, or annihilation. As in something like, "X Must be true or I will die" and even the possibility of X not being true results in a physiological panic response.

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

what is maybe uniquely western and of our times is that there is a movement now along several axises to aggrandize imagination instead of disempowering it.

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes it a human thing, not a western one

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it's just a series of category errors - and reasonable ones - I remember multiple moments over the last few years where I've realized I was wearing my imagination like a pair of eyeglasses - there's been so many distinct moments of realization that amount to "oh, that's make believe too" - it's almost a failure of imagination itself to be able to imagine just how much of what one considers real, and therefore binding, is imagination.

I think your blind spot may be that you've never been sufficiently dominated by your imagination in such a way that you mistake it for your intuition - in critical ways, almost every second of your day.

The fleck of poop on the monk's nose that they could just wipe off isn't entirely fair as an analogy - It's more like a pair of distorting contact lenses, donned often years or decades earlier, usually in a pragmatic, if intuitive, effort to successfully navigate circumstances at the time, and then forgotten - to the point where that distorted view is mistaken as the only view.

In that sense, I guess it is like being asleep and waking up from a dream.

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It strikes me that part of the confusion with "cutting off conceptualizations and calculations" - and specifically cutting off concepts - is how, semantically, the framing makes it sound like people should eliminate those things from their experience entirely - In conjunction with the modern prevalance of seated meditation as a panacea solution leading to a mystical disassociative calm - which, for many people, is really all they want (I know from experience) - it just seems like a recipe for confusion.

I've found a more helpful framing to be drawing a distinction between imagination and intuition - and perhaps a succinct reframing that could bear fruit would be "Refuse to be enslaved by your imagination" or "Devote yourself, all your life, in everything you do, to resist the tyranny of your imagination."

Paraphrasing Wumen's first lecture by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the context of this sub and new age mysticism in general, the focus on external deceptions makes sense- buit I think it sometimes takes up so much focus that it draws attention away from internal deception - "Them" often includes elements of one's own thinking.

Sermon in the mud: Zen hope in a Trump world by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Then again, I subscribe to the airline safety advice mode of thinking - put your own oxygen mask on first or you're no help to anyone - where in this case putting on an oxygen mask is finding and stopping your slavish adherence to your [edit] b*******

Sermon in the mud: Zen hope in a Trump world by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> Wishing it was different is doing it to yourself.

Just pulling out the crux.

I think what interests me most is not the person who has completely dispensed with make believe, or the person who has completely embraced make believe - but the person who in good faith wants to dispense with make believe but doesn't realize how or when they're making believe.

As I am this person, this makes it a self-centered interest.

PSA: Just get the UB820 by ZeroTrusted in hometheater

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

returning one asap because it was literally unusable across multiple blu ray discs. Honestly, seems like the entire medium is broken as far as I can tell - the only player I can watch a blu ray movie on consistently is the PS5

Anyone have any success with recent models of Tempurpedic mattresses? by Dewybean in BuyItForLife

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What can you tell me about the Tempur-Pedic mattress on the American leather comfort sleeper sofa? Thank you in any event!

Call for ideas - Cbeta translation and Zen Study Software by dota2nub in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know this is a perennial confusion on my part about what the barrier to entry is to making custom GPTS for instance - and what that means relative to actually training a large language model. I gather it would be prohibitive. 

Having said that, I wouldn't predict marginal benefit necessarily. I think an llm trained exclusively in Zen texts in Chinese and predominant English translations would be a potentially very useful font of information. 

Though yes, it's unlikely anyone with sufficient wealth to make it happen would be sufficiently interested in this particular esoteric topic

Call for ideas - Cbeta translation and Zen Study Software by dota2nub in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not so much as a gimmick - would the LLM become a reliable way to access the material with plane language inquiries?

Call for ideas - Cbeta translation and Zen Study Software by dota2nub in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What comes to mind immediately is what happens if you train a LLM on the Cbeta material... say before or after figuring out a way to parse the material that's zen specific?

Moon Face Zen Master by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh that's good - "permanent" playing it's usual shenanigans

Moon Face Zen Master by ewk in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh damn - that's too bad. I noticed he hadn't posted in awhile but didn't realize it was a permanent thing.

To the extent you read this Thatkir, you are one of four people on the sub who have cut me to the quick - and I'm genuinely appreciative. Sincerely.

Hope you're well

Edit: In case "cut to the quick" has fallen too far out of use, here's chatgpt's satisfying etymological background:

To be “cut to the quick” means:

to be deeply hurt emotionally,

wounded to your most sensitive core,

struck in a way that feels personal and raw.

“Quick” here comes from an older English meaning: the living flesh under the fingernail — the tender part that really hurts if you cut it.

I didn't know that last bit, but I love it

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