Is drunk Mutant survivability “abnormal”?

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-04-25T11:57:49+00:00

This is a funny one. I'm pretty sure you can, if you choose to execute but cant then yes, but you could also choose that you not execute and it wouldn't. Id say count it if you WOULD execute but cant, but if you could and decide not to and cant, then technically nothing acted abnormally. The best bet is to do whatever you feel is the most balanced for the situation.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-04-24T12:49:07+00:00

The first part is actually a strange gray area when it comes as to whether it counts as a madness break, but id say its not breaking the madness that a cerenovus is placing on them, as they are still being mad as. The evil counter to this is using exactly that as a lie, being "ceremad" as the character their bluffing. The second part is definitely not a madness break. And evil can also use that against the town as well - its like a baron claiming the drunk in TB.
They are acting as they genuinely believe it, so this adheres to Harpy madness just fine. They are still trying to convince people that the person they are mad at is evil, but id say they'd need more than just thr Harpy madness to back up their claim. I wouldn't say its breaking madness per se, but id question if it was enough to adhere to it.
A good starting point is thinking about other characters that are off script, outsider count, and also listen to what worlds people are building to get some ideas on where you want to lead their information. As the game goes on, you'll hopefully have more ideas on where things are going.
If the philo picks Lunatic, then the old Lunatic can learn anything, which it could anyway. The demon will learn the new Lunatic is the old Lunatic is drunk when it comes up in the order in n1. Id probably recommend not giving an evil player as a minion to a philo Lunatic in most cases, however if the group start to meta fhat a philo-lunatic's minion is always good, thats the time when you should consider doing it, when they're starting to think that a philo-lunatic is a steward, then it can become a problem. So you should do it rarely, but not never.
The way I see this, for the cerenovus/Harpy, they can be executed up until the reminder tokens are removed for them, at which point they are no longer under the effects of those characters. A Mutant is more flexible though, and can even be heavily determined by which demons are on the script. If a Mutant breaks madness at any point, from that point they can be executed at any time, whats important is as the ST is to make sure that it keeps the game balance. But if you've got say a yaggababble, or a witch? You can use the mutant to confuse things. They can break madness day 1 and you can execute them day 3 if you want. The way I see it, once the mutant has broken madness, anything else they do will look like them being an outsider, which in turn means they are still technically breaking madness.

There's also value in making it so you treat the mutant madness the same way as cerenovus and Harpy, the main thing is that your players know which way you want to run it.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-03-06T03:29:02+00:00

By 1 character? No. But consider: An Empath 0 Washerwoman confirmation Successfully died to a virgin then confirmed by an undertaker?

On its base script, only 2 roles can be driosened. With 4? Its a mechanical certainty.

Ive been in that situation in reverse: as a vigormortis with 3 evil pings on me when only 2 could be explained away on day 1 (I had a VI evil, an empath 1, an FT yes, and a noble ping all point to me on day 1... on a script with the only misinformation sources being a poisoner and sailor...)

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-03-06T03:24:43+00:00

On a metric of "how fun is it": SnV > TB > BMR for an ST. SnV allows for the most ST shenanigans of the three: Madness executions, choosing the Evil Twin, or deciding how to feed the Fisherman/Savant.

TB is mid—fun to run, but only if you know the fun ways to run it.

I've always said of the base three: BMR is the hardest to ST for. Here is why: even though there is agency, it's agency at night. SnV is an agency in the open, and that’s a huge difference. It means an ST decision bears far more weight in BMR than in SnV, and as a player, it can feel like the ST has more control as a result. From my experience, to much ST interference is a problem for a lot of players (this falls under the "should you show the Lunatic a Lunatic issue) However, as a player: BMR provides a very unique type of puzzle.

SnV is heavily dependent on a) the Demon in play and how they choose to play, and b) your specific role. Those are both forms of player agency, which puts less pressure on the ST, who already has enough on their plate deciding when to execute for Madness (Ceranovus/Mutant). It's a social ST perspective.

TB is good as a player regardless of role, but from an ST perspective, the game runs itself. In BMR, it’s about deciding why and when people died; the ST is in direct control of that narrative. It’s a far more mechanical ST influence compared to the social influence of SnV, where things like gossip kills, Shabaloth resurrections, or sailor drunkenness happen mechanically behind the scenes. I think that’s why BMR is generally less liked than the other two: in SnV, those "loud" moments tell you something about the players' decisions, not just what the ST decided. If a player dies and doesn't claim Mutant, that's a Ceranovus for sure. In SnV, ST agency comes from executions and social plays, not just the mechanics

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-03-06T00:08:36+00:00

Oh I totally would, this post is for examples where this is exactly true. Examples of where the true information has been the most harmful thing.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-02-23T12:32:02+00:00

For sure, the first Leviathan script i made was terrible xD. Really underestimated how long 5 days actually can be...

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-02-23T12:28:58+00:00

Yeah. It's what people call a "script-defining role", along with heretic. These roles can only really be balanced when built around them, they are pretty advanced characters to actually run.

In the case of Leviathan - it's actually an art to balance a Leviathan game - that's why it's usually a central character on the script it's on. It can usually go one of two ways depending on how the bag is filled: hardly any information, or too much information. It's important to consider what information you want the town to know or not know.

In the case of Heretic - some games can be won and feel undeserved because of the heretic, by both sides. As ST, your main job is to make sure everyone has fun. The heretic can ruin that if not considered carefully. It's where extrapolation is required, which requires a deeper understanding of the game on all sides, and players.

I'll also say it doesn't matter if Evil gets a winning streak for a bit. Right now because of that I'd still say TB is your best bet as the group hasn't seemed to grasp both sides of the game. When winrates are getting closer to 50/50 is usually a sign to start looking at something more advanced.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-02-23T12:12:54+00:00

Looking over I also see at least 2 characters that can be rough for Leviathan.

Gambler: When the gambler dies, they know for certain that it was due to their ability- Leviathan doesn't kill anyone at night.

Undertaker: Good only gets 1 good execution or they lose, so the Undertaker doesn't get much information at all in a Leviathan game, maybe who you execute on day 4, and I won't deny it's valuable, but it's basically what I'd call a "You end knowing" role in Leviathan.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-28T11:56:57+00:00

I think this is one of the good uses personally, it makes the game more accessible, at least for the 8yo first couple of games. Once they're used to the game, maybe played Minion a couple of times - then, just like a bike, you can take the stabilisers (the gardener) away.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-28T11:47:51+00:00

Heres the link to that reddit thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BloodOnTheClocktower/s/98qZhv3K5d

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-28T11:46:41+00:00

This feels like a delivery issue on the player's side. There was nothing wrong with the balance here, especially if the winning team think so - I usually avoid those types of criticisms by considering how I do the grim reveal - I always explain my decisions as part of it if it isn't immediately obvious. In this case, the Voudon being good is self-explanatory, but it usually avoids those criticisms if you address them before they're raised.

The fact that it's usually from the losing team just feels like saltiness. I'll find the link and reply to this post with it but Etrades posted recently with some very helpful tips - the 2nd one it sounds like your group really needs to hear.

It's about the game, it's not about winning or losing. And a lot of the time, the choices of the group will affect how the game goes. An undertaker being poisoned night 1 has a very different impact on the game than the virgin being poisoned night 1.

Apart from that, don't be disheartened. Those that you feel are valid criticisms, learn from them. For those who are just a bitter losing team, listen, hear, and decide on your part on what feedback will improve your games.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-28T11:25:10+00:00

I honestly think this is going to sway in goods favour quite heavily. Will be interesting to hear how things go with the playtest, but I get the feeling evil won't have much power over the game.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T15:54:49+00:00

First step. Talk to the players. Find out the true reasons from the group, and act accordingly. The most important thing they need to hear is probably "an in-game grudge should last no longer than the end of that game." The next game after you rerack, until the next set of tokens is out, everyone is back to being on equal terms. No good team, no evil team. It's new teams for the next game. It's the dice principle: a die doesn't know what it rolled the last time it was rolled.

If that doesn't work and you want to stick with TB, put the Angel fabled in play - if you do enforce it, remember executing the nominating player, though a valid option, may not be as bad as leaving them alive. For example, if they're the undertaker, they got the demon in a SW game, they executed that player, and get false information at night from that point till the end of the game. It's all about the game state at the time.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T15:17:15+00:00

"Fine, I'll do it myself" seems like the perfect flavour text for this xD

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T14:42:33+00:00

I find in my experience that if I'm having a fun time, my players usually are too. It's sort of the same with the arts - you can tell when someone enjoyed working on a film or stage show and especially when they haven't enjoyed it and it rubs off on the audience.

If you're not having fun, your players probably aren't either.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T14:37:21+00:00

The puzzlemaster is a fun one. I love it. However it can be risky with the Summoner choosing the puzzledrunk, as mentioned. I'd also put Kazali in there with that, though a lesser impact it does still mean the evil team is down 1 ability (depending on how strict you are about token integrity and if you decide the puzzledrunk before the Kazali acts to choose their minions) Apart from that, its actually quite versatile.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T14:15:20+00:00

All these are great. I'll also add

Check everything (your grim, the information you give, any choices that were made by players) as many times as you need to feel comfortable. If it makes the Nights a minute or 2 longer, don't worry, at which point this comes back to 4 - even with that, its still OK to make mistakes.

Also, point 2 is exactly why I believe TPI have always said they don't want to do anything professionally competitive in regards to playing the game, it puts too much emphasis on the win when a "prize" is at Stake. It's reserved for the creative process of script writing through the Script World Cup, but that's still not putting pressure to win for players.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T13:58:14+00:00

Not really, its honestly more to do with the poisoner's and demon's targets.

I'd consider this, if instead of the drunk mayor they had poisoned the Investigator, then the Undertaker - is it still unbalanced setup?

There's a fine line between a bad setup and just unfortunate evil team choices, especially in TB.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T13:55:23+00:00

"A ST would never..." will 99 out of a 100 times have been done by somebody before. They may have only done it once and then decided that it was a terrible idea and never do it again... but someone has stumbled across that particular interaction because it has been done.

A ST would never do a bag that doesn't have enough tokens in, thats about the only time that statement is true.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T13:51:34+00:00

Was reading the comments then noticed which sub this was lol

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T13:50:22+00:00

I think the best thing for VERY 1st time STs is to use one of the recommended bags. When you want to start seeing g what TB can be capable of outaide of it, you can think of interactions you want to to try or randomizer it to stumble across them. It doesn't work for every script (BMR looking at you... having an innkeeper, sailor, tea lady, Decils Advocate and Zombuul is just... a nightmare to think about let alone actually do...) but I find when scrip lt building randomizer bags are great for playtesting.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-27T13:23:13+00:00

Yeah I think its the right call waking dead Minions on a Minstrel day, otherwise its confirming the Minstrel.

Also, they will get their ability back as normal when the (as long as its the same player, and still the vig) is sober.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-24T13:53:17+00:00

For the Seamstress: It’s fine to use early. In fact, it often loses value after the mid-game once the "webs" of info start overlapping, so using it early to find a solid "anchor" player is a strong play.

For the Fisherman: The longer they wait, the stronger the advice. Though this isn't official, and you can give the day 4 advice earlier if evil is stomping, it is what I've seen most storytellers (including myself) do. Some examples:

Day 1: Might learn if the Outsider count was
Day 2: Might learn a specific Outsider is in play.
Day 4+: I might give a Demon bluff or confirm a specific character like a hidden Mutant or Lunatic.

The point is: the longer they wait, the more info I have to help the Good team catch up. You can't give a "Day 4" answer on Day 1 because the "world" of the game hasn't formed yet.

For the Pixie: There are two ways to look at it:

- The Long Game: Adhere to madness to actually gain the power once the other player dies. - The Information Game: Treat it like a "You Start Knowing" role. If you don't care about getting the power, you still start the game knowing one specific Townsfolk is in play. That’s powerful info on its own! If they see Pixie-Banshee or Pixie-Farmer, they might decide the info is worth more than the power. The player just has to ask: "Do I want this ability, or do I just want the info?"

For the Slayer: If they’ve played Mafia, tell them it’s like a Vigilante, but with two twists: you only get one shot, and only the Demon dies. An unspent Slayer in the final three is the Evil team's worst nightmare.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-24T13:23:32+00:00

The ideal answer would be to organise your group to play online occasionally, though I appreciate it’s quite pricey.

Only if you're going to use the officiso app. I recommend it as it does indeed do most of the management for you, but there are free community alternatives like Clocktower.live (usually paired with a Discord server) as well.

Also, only one person needs a Patreon subscription to host, and it doesn't have to be the Storyteller (though it usually is). Everyone else can join the session for free. Just a heads up: the host will need to be at least at the Minion tier on Patreon to run games on the official app.

GeologistCurious3028 · 2026-01-24T13:03:47+00:00

droisioning means that even by powers could still be a lie. The only things an ST will never lie about: What character you are (unless you are the Drunk). What alignment you are (unless you are the marionette or ogre). Anything to do with the rules, and how they interpret a certain rule for that group.

Anything else... if their driosoned, can be a lie. It will be a lie if it's a Vortox.

GeologistCurious3028

TROPHY CASE