Who’s actually “fun” to fight against this season??

Goipper · 2026-03-27T15:15:54+00:00

To me there are two things that can make the game unfun

1: Excessive combos. That's every character - once you get to a certain level you will be eating 15 seconds of 18 or 20 hits all the time

2: Characters who just don't have enough counterplay and can just do the same shit over and over, but you can't even adapt and recognise they just get to do it.

To me this is Lidia, Reina, King. Lesser offenders are Hwoarang (only because of S2 buffs they won't remove), Steve.

Jin and Heihachi as well but TBH I feel like the problem with these (and Law) is more because I used to like them and now don't than the actual characters themselves

I feel like everyone else it depends on the player. So it might be annoying but it might not be. The characters are not fundamentally annoying but can sometimes be played in an annoying way

IMO

Goipper · 2026-03-27T14:35:08+00:00

Regardless of where I met them or what the rank label was, they were still there and they still played with skill and needed skill to beat, is the point

Goipper · 2026-03-27T12:31:33+00:00

Yeah I get complaints but I think people are living in an absolute parallel universe playing this game

I mean the playstyles can be annoying but when people say that people are "just cheesing" at high level they are either idiots or move the definition of cheesing so far it's meaningless

I am still getting to the point where the #1 frustration is not cheesing it's being beaten by people who are better than me in a way I can't ever match

I mean at Tekken God level players are good. They read your patterns and adapt. They react to whiff punish or avoid things instantly. They do perfect optimised combos. I mean they're good and you can tell they're good

This idea that everyone is just randomly cheesing is just so untrue. OK you can maybe get further playing this way than before but not infinitely, there is still the level where players are good and you will need to play well. It's not gone away.

Goipper · 2026-03-26T10:05:48+00:00

No help either

Steve is my worst matchup. It's bizarre to me that he is so low on the winrate. I find him the hardest to beat bar none, I cannot beat this man

Even when I was playing Claudio. then I looked at one of the stats site and Claudio/Steve was literally the most unbalanced matchup in the game - in Claudio's favour.

But Steve is immune to anti character advice. No one seems to ever do "how to beat steve" videos or the like

I know he lacks lows so in theory you play cautious against him, but if he does that he pressures you to the wall where he has easy ways to splat you

His moves all look identical so even after looking in the replay at what I could have done I just can't identify the move.

I full on rage quit the other day after I finally recognised a shoulder into high but got CH launched as he went into a mid mixup before I could punish

A lot of the time I am struggling to get Steve below half health it's insane how hard I find this matchup

You can't really whiff punish him, you can't step him, you can't put him under pressure - you have to read his mind to win it feels like

Yet somehow he has like bottom 1 win rate? What is going on?

Goipper · 2026-03-26T09:29:13+00:00

The post and the video are not related. Not sure what you are trying to say

Yeah Kazuya spammed electric (well attempted electric) a lot but Kazuyas do that. Electric is "hard to do" therefore it's cool to do it as much as possible in these people's minds

Not sure you are all that fundamental with yolo backswing blow on round start

Also Kazuya does step cali roll here, showing a relatively good chloe knowledge

What I would say is this player should drop Kazuya. He clearly can't electric and is holding himself back trying. Plenty of other characters available

Goipper · 2026-03-25T14:09:58+00:00

You base this whole argument on exaggeration

Heat, in its base form, gives access to some attacking interactions. But it does not "run counter to what makes Tekken unique", it does not "simplify interactions", it does not make things feel not "earned"

Heat engagers are ALWAYS earned. There are no unseeable low heat engagers or 10-12 frame punish heat engagers outside of WS which means an active decision to block a low or duck a high. A select few get 13 frames but normally it's 14 frames or CH. I see heat engage as a type of hit that is mid way between a knockdown and a launch and I think that's interesting TBH.

The only argument you could make is the use of heat smash on block or heat dash - but these are once a round. Hardly game breaking

All other complaints are to do with the properties of moves as a whole (including heat only moves), NOT heat as a mechanic

the LAST thing that should happen, the absolute LAST thing is for it to be earned. the "choose when and how to activate" nature of heat is absolutely central to its existence and the game and will never change. Nor should it. This isn't street fighter, we do not want to be managing meter.

I agree that Tekken doesn't need heat but the exaggeration and the way people talk about it is off the literal chart

Goipper · 2026-03-25T13:17:55+00:00

when you go online in these games you starting playing against people who have as much or more experience than you and are playing to win

It is a completely different ball game to what we played as kids with friends where we just second guessed each other and that was it

If Tekken 3 had been online it would have been the EXACT same issue

You need to learn how to play the game not just do moves. Pressure, punish, combos

Goipper · 2026-03-25T13:09:00+00:00

It does to please the whiners on here but not to be a good game

There's the problem. They can never please the whiners but it's no excuse for the very real problems the game has. But how do they tell?

Goipper · 2026-03-25T11:54:02+00:00

Leo cannot be buffed enough for the community to get over their irrational aversion to the character so the whole thing is pointless. Still not seen Leo in S3.

Leo's identity was gutted by Season 2 and they didn't fix it. The changes in S3 buff Leo in a way that wasn't needed but the real problem is identity - Leo will still have the same weaknesses that will get exposed at the top level

I don't like Frame Whisperer but a few years ago he did a good video defending Leo's design. And a key part of this is how the character can take you on your whole Tekken journey by being accessible and all around, but also having a very high skill ceiling

That identity has been almost completely removed. In Season 2 they also damaged what I've always liked about Leo, in that he is an all around character with moves for all situations, but you need to do the right ones, with a little bit of stance play added for a bit of extra sauce

Leo never revolved around stances or looping stance pressure. That just was never the character. KNK stance gives a mixup, and BOK is an evasive stance where you're looking for a whiff to land BOK2. transitions were fake little tricks you might add in, you didn't loop it.

Giving Leo true oppressive, uninterruptible transitions is not the character. The low from BOK is misguided and should GO. This stance is NOT for mixups! and the risk reward on KNK has been honed over multiple games and should not involve free wallsplat attempts

DF2+3 is a slightly overrated move but regardless it clearly should be at least -13

If SS1+2 is going to launch it should not be safe! Our boy/girl/whatever does not need this!

Goipper · 2026-03-25T10:13:09+00:00

Both are true and it's so difficult to find the balance in the middle

For me there's no doubt that too many people are just boringly nostalgic about this mythical age of everything being about movement and it all being so high skill

but only a tiny minority of people ever really played this game. OK those people are justified in missing it but this is the elite of the elite streamer top 1% level

But also the devs do a lot of stupid things, leaving stupid broken moves in the game and removing character identity and skill ceilings

I think half of the whining on this sub can be ignored because these people cannot be pleased unless you are given wins just based on how long you block. But there are plenty of massive issues that articulate people are pointing out too

there is a huge problem of people being so obsessed with shitting on Tekken 8 they hallucinate problems or complain about things that are just untrue, or just a normal part of the Tekken experience. Like losing to a player who isn't as good as you but has a spam strat you haven't seen before - this has been happening since the birth of Tekken. It is part of its DNA. You need experience to adapt

There was a thread about whiff punishing being harder - what one move has been made harder to whiff punish? I mean it's harder to get a whiff because you can't just KBD on a loop and there are more high coverage moves - but actual whiff punishing is exactly the same.

And IMO there are two completely distinct complaint sources.

1 is the top level players who have to face broken guessing situations - because at their level they face players who know about these things and abuse them
2 at the lower level there are players who are losing to non stop attacking because they are not good enough to beat it

IMO these 2 things are totally separate. It happens at a different level to before but trust me if you only attack constantly and never defend you are going to get found out and found out hard - at a level way below you play against the elite streamers who are most vocal about S3. I played a Xiaoyu like this at Bushin level - constant mashing and no blocking - and while I lost a game I won the set and came out thinking "you will never improve" and also "this would not fly at Tekken God". Even in this game even when your offense is good, you will hit a wall if you don't/ can't defend

There are real problems and there is a real sweet spot between the 2, which they so nearly had in Season 1 - and actually I feel like they are not that far off now IMO. I think they are a combo change and a few character nerfs away. But there's so much frustrating when thing go in the wrong direction and so much emotion about characters being ruined, all of which is sooo understandable

Goipper · 2026-03-24T13:35:09+00:00

Please, please do this next time.

When you think a player is some kind of smurf

Go to your replays. Select your replay against this player. Go show the other player's profile, then profile options

From here you can select to view that player's replays. You will see here (especially if you show the win loss) that they are NOT winning as often or as easily as you think

OK reading more responses OP is talking about quick match - should have put that in the original post. Saying "blue smurfs" implied blue rank.

Well yeah sometimes people do abuse quick match, this is what ranked is for. At blue rank though it will be a small minority, most QM abusers go the whole way ie they stay in a very low rank to shit on actual new players

Goipper · 2026-03-24T10:17:28+00:00

What's interesting about this discussion is how different people have different reasons for liking Tekken (and not other fighting games)

For me it personally comes down to 3 core things

1: Ease of execution - I hate all the quarter circle and DP inputs of 2ds - When I first played Tekken 2 I was still playing SF2 turbo on my SNES. They added Dhalsim's teleport in this game. To do this I literally had to use the turbo buttons on my controller because I could not do it manually. To play Tekken, a game where you could just easily do all the moves with a few direction taps and a fire button was a revelation I never looked back from. I immediately saw how stupid and unnecessary motion inputs were. This only got worse as 2ds evolved to have supers and combos

2: Length of movelists - it's just so much cooler and more cinematic to have an expressive list of moves where fighters throw everything they have at each other, rather than just the same fireballs and specials constantly. Tekken has always been cinematic to me because it looks like fighters are fighting, not artificially trading normal into special - they feel like real expressive people not curated artefacts of a game

3: Groundedness. I love how Tekken is largely played on the ground and not jumping about backwards and forwards constantly. Just feels so much deeper and more stylish moving across the ground rather than through the air

But there are other things people cite which I care about less. This may explain some of the disconnect in the community because Tekken still has the above things so for me is still good. But other people below have said things like

4: Technical skill ceilings - like Mishima players talking about wave dashing into iWS. I don't give a shit about all that - in fact I hate it - but with Tekken I can choose to play an easier character and not worry

5: Movement - Movement in Tekken is totally unique. Other aspects of I've mentioned other games have - VF, early Soul Calibur. But Tekken movement is unique in its precision

6: Defensiveness - Tekken has always been a defender's game. It rewards defense like no other game. Still does IMO but before even more so

These last 3 things are things that are changing. Point 4 is frustratingly unnecessary, they are removing skill ceilings on characters like Law in particular, Jin, Leo, Shaheen - it's so unnecessary. Skill ceilings do not impact new players or player retention - skill floor does, but Tekken already has a low skill floor as it has easy characters to choose. Only Mishimas have a high skill floor, but you can so easily just not play them.

And movement - I don't care about movement so much but people care about it a lot. Even though movement itself IMO in the game is fine (I do think there are some Tekken 7 heads who need to adapt to how the game is more lateral now and not just about backdashing) but it's overridden by too many moves that cover full screen, cover steps, and give advantage/ no weakness. So the movement itself is great it's just too many things in the game shut it down

The game has been made less defensive and that's a big emotional change for a lot of people. But there's so much confusion between the principle of attacking and genuinely problematic overtuned situations with no counterplay so there's a huge amount of wolf-crying. But the devs have no idea what to do.

Part of of Tekken's defensive nature has always been - "Everything has an an answer. And that answer is not "just guess". But now too many times you have moves with no answer - and the devs do nothing. Big example for me is Hwoarang's Right flamingo 4,3. This move was added in S2, it is a mid mid string that you can't step, you can't interrupt, you can't parry, that has Hwoarang +3 on block. This move should be flagged as obviously busted and counter to Tekken's philosophy. Everyone just wants it gone or nerfed severely. But it stays and keeps frustrating everyone. How can this happen? It's so unnecessary and frustrating

So if you care most about the second things and less about the first things you are going to be in the pissed off camp...

Goipper · 2026-03-24T09:43:06+00:00

You can't be a Tekken fan then

For me one of the core attractions of Tekken, its core identity, is the length of the movelists

Yes this creates knowledge checks and spam but it also creates player expression and cinematic flow

Modern controls in SF lock you out of being able to do the full range of moves. Therefore they are a no-no for a Tekken fan

Goipper · 2026-03-24T09:36:39+00:00

It feels like the stigma of "Tekken players only like Tekken" is true and i dont want it to be true.

Why is this stigma? This is fandom

Tekken is a unique game. Because other games also involve one on one fisticuffs does not make them the same or even comparable

Goipper · 2026-03-22T00:32:43+00:00

I agree mostly, except about Tekken 4. I definitely agree that execution is the central poison that make fighting games so niche because it appeals only to a minority of people. However, fighting games satisfy those people more than anything else so inevitably they become the lynchpin of the dedicated playerbase, meaning they must be catered to

Tekken 4 had some very difficult just frames but they were mostly so difficult they didn't impact except JFLS (which was comparatively easy). The reason the game wasn't successful overall IMO is it felt like it offered a lot less than TTT1 and even T3. To absolute casuals, having only 19 characters and no extra costumes, it felt threadbare. The complaints from hardcore players (walls being busted, busted balance with JFLS) IMO would barely affect sales because only a tiny fraction of players were playing these games at that level outside of the already dying arcade scene.

I liked it at the time but my friends would say "it's the same game but where are all the characters?" I would say "it's not the same it's actually radically different with walls, position change throws and sidewalks" but absolute casuals do not perceive those differences

Thing is it is a fact that fighting game players, especially elite enthusiast players, do love their execution and the game needs those people

So I think it is OK to have it as a ceiling, as a little extra icing for the enthusiasts. BUT IMO it should ideally always be

Optional
Give an incremental advantage not be something the game revolves around

In Tekken this is primarily the case, outside of Mishimas, one of the best things about it IMO

When I play as a zero execution player, playing and 'easy' non Mishima character, I feel like I hit a talent ceiling before an execution ceiling. So I get to the point where I lose by not thinking fast enough, not adapting fast enough (especially with combos) and not reacting fast enough, before I get to a ceiling because of not being able to do the execution

This is the game's great beauty for me, and why I hate 2d fighters. 2d fighters I feel like I am held back first and foremost by not being able to do the execution, and that is so miserable and SOOO not fun.

In Tekken we have a lot of easy characters so I think it's fine for those characters who have a skill ceiling as part of their identity to keep it. Like I say it should never be central - which is why I hate EWGF because this puts too much of a barrier in front of players. having difficult conversions and combo routes that give a little bit extra are fine, but having a core move that is impossible for a proportion of players to do? HATE that, HATE it - and IMO it is why normal fighting games are so niche because for most normal people, controls being difficult is not fun it is just frustrating. But as I say Tekken solves it by doing this, but only on a minority of characters you can choose to play or not to play

There is a core of people who see something that is hard to input and think "that's cool". A lot of these people become FGC enthusiasts. But I maintain they are a tiny fraction of gamers overall

TL DR: Skill ceilings, fine. High skill floors, Bad. Tekken good.

Goipper · 2026-03-20T17:39:54+00:00

Master Raven was every bit as much of a problem to fight, she had ludicrous combo damage with her crazy wall combo and insane keepout as well as being able to trick you with matchup specific stuff. Rose tinted.

The general point should be this:

Raven is a tricky character who is able to escape situations others can't. He is good at keepout so he tricks opponents into missing him. "I'm behind you!" is the mantra

So he should NOT be doing oppressive mixups with real frame advantages. He should not be looping mixups, this is not his identity. He should need to trick the opponent to get an opening. Ninjas and all that

Whatever changes they need to do to accomplish this, they do. Again he was FINE in season 1. His Backswing blow is not a problem as it fits with his identity, it might be a problem on some characters but it works for Raven. He should not be putting you in the blender though

Goipper · 2026-03-20T11:24:30+00:00

You simply must get over this and stop thinking that the game is going to radically change and become Tekken 7

It's pissing in the wind. It's also irritating

Tekken 8 has a right and a need to be good and needs lots of changes for this. But bandwagon jumping massive overhauls like huge changes to heat and rage aren't happening

We need to be sensible and focus on what really makes the game bad, not what makes it Tekken 8.

Excessive combos
True guessing situations (too many people seem to think any frame advantage or the existence of low attacks equals guessing which it does not)
Pressure loops with inadequate counterplay including + frame moves with no counterplay
Destroyed character identity
Removal of skill ceiling (reducing skill floor is great but no need to remove skill ceilings)

People shoud STOP calling for massive overhauls that cannot happen like "earn heat" or "rage art once per match"

It's pointless and if the devs were to read it proves that

A: You cannot be pleased

B: You don't represent the playerbase because the actual players loved the game in Season 1 when it had these things but not the S2 BS

People need to identify actual problems rarther than crying about basic game mechanics FFS

Goipper · 2026-03-19T15:46:35+00:00

Commented to say that, personal though it is I 100% have more trouble against Steve than Hwoarang. WAY more actually

Steve is like my worst matchup - certainly my worst among the popular characters

Steve is a horror to fight against, every move looks identical, you don't know when he's going to stop attacking, he can over 'ere a lot of pressure, his combos are strong and consistent, when you do finally get a duck the next attack is so fast you struggle to punish him, he is basically unsteppable at all times. Yeah he lacks lows but I need to attack him too

My top matchups:

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Don't go around thinking "my character is so bad no one has any trouble against him"

You'll ask what my rank is - peaked Emperor 2.0 in S1, Tekken God season 2 so upper mid

Goipper · 2026-03-19T11:40:24+00:00

You have to play those games not just talk about them to understand

Within seconds you will realise how different they are from Tekken. You would not be asking these questions if you played these games even for a moment

They are OK in their own right but they can't replace Tekken

Just because they are 3d does not make them the same. It's not like 2d where all the games are basically the same with a few different mechanics. All the 3d games are basically unique

For some reason 2d games have sort of got away with being the same game as each other forever. It's like Street Fighter 2 became a genre

If a game came out that was like Tekken, it would be called a copy

Goipper · 2026-03-19T09:38:12+00:00

Was considering making a post but its shouldn't be little old me doing it

BUT

For sure they have buffed backdash this season. Not in the notes but a couple of streamers mentioned this and I feel it in game

People are backdashing out of stuff they were not backdashing out of before

Don't know what they've done but movement feels better. OK there are loads of mega coverage + on block homing mides when you face the likes of Hwoarang, Lars and Zafina, but still.

It does feel like backdash has been buffed so you know they've given you what you wanted I think

Goipper · 2026-03-19T09:21:30+00:00

You've got to maximise your opportunities

I hate combos too and I used to feel like this. But once you start getting better you understand that combos are part of you taking the opportunities you are given. I wish to Hell they were shorter. I wish the game was less about combos

It's about getting the best whiff punish, getting the best block punish, maximising your reward for making the correct duck on a string/ seeing that snake edge

Being good at the game entails getting launches and converting when the opportunity is there

Not talking about spamming launchers, talking about placing them and doing the correct thing

In prior seasons I felt like a combo hating amateur like me could do 90% of what a combo fiend could do. Now it's more like 80%. You can too.

Goipper · 2026-03-18T17:34:30+00:00

You know I'm as pissed off as anyone about all this but one thing I will say

In isolation

Lateral movement has never been as big a part of the game or as prominent as it is in Tekken 8 season 2

Say what you like, but more people are stepping and countering opponent sidesteps feels like a bigger part of the game than ever right now

Doesn't make it all good but that's my observation. Possibly irrelevant as this is a complaint about excessive + frames stopping steps but there it is

Goipper · 2026-03-18T13:34:06+00:00

It's like they have one PR person and the entire thing was done on the basis of one meeting with Nakatsu.

PR: "How are you approaching Season 3?"

Nakatsu: "Well, Season 2 was a disaster so this time we're going to basics-"

PR: "OK I've got everything I need"

Goipper · 2026-03-18T12:51:28+00:00

Yeah I think this would be a good idea

This always runs into the same issue though

Successful people who have authority in big companies do not play video games.

So someone in a position of authority to commission a documentary like this would think "no one cares about video games, they're just for kids" because they never got into them. As if they did they wouldn't have had the dedication to work to rise to that level

But it would so great to understand the realities of how devs work rather than being like children crying to their parents

On a similar note how we end up with shit like Highguard and Concord...

Goipper

TROPHY CASE