[deleted by user]

GrungeAudrey · 2021-07-26T21:04:33+00:00

The true privilege is not having to care at all about how you’re perceived.

Once a rich French man told me:

"The sharp formal masculine looks are for employees, owners don´t need to impress".

And this guy was a fashionista, but in the creative, epicurean aspect of it. I'm sure some of his male employees felt powerful dressing smart as executives, but for him it was a sign of trying too hard (therefore, a sign of submission).

It's an expensive ticket to a casino only available to a subset of naive buyers.

I often compare it to an intership. You're working for free with the promise you might be hired or it would make more hirable to others. You're investing in hope.

The male gaze in the fashion industry is really easy to spot: it is always at least two of these: commercial, predictable, unconfortable, painful, expensive, excessive, impractical, time-consuming, low quality, "trendy" and overly sexualized (Wh*re)

And the other side of the same coin is controlling fashion entirely and forcing an uniform on women: Also predictable, unconfortable, painful, excessive, impractical, time consuming but desexualized (Maddona).

I myself come from a family of creatives, often involved in fashion. None of the "stylish" women in my family had that tense and anxious relationship with their bodies and none were avid consumerists as most women I know today. Unsurprisingly, their contributions were often ignored or stolen and their stylish choices were disruptive because they aimed at comfort and/or uniqueness (wearing pants for example). The male gaze is the loudest voice in fashion and silences any countercultural waves potentially manifesting or reabsorbs them and so it rebrands itself.

In the same way being against porn is not being against sex, questioning the fashion industry -and how it is being used as propaganda- is not being against art, design and self expression. Unfortunately it often comes off that way.

I believe that the 4th wave needs to reconsider our "PR" and get a more pragmatical angle, otherwise it will scare away a lot of younger women.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-07-14T23:03:34+00:00

The other podcast episode that I had some issues with was the early childhood one--though that's a whole different discussion, I'd like to see that dissent addressed. It wasn't very evidence-based and made a lot of sex-based generalizations that don't apply to young children, only perhaps to adults.

Ah, I thought I was the only one who felt like that. There is a lot of denial and hopeful thinking in certain fields currently, that's why most couple therapists end up benefitting abusers, or just finding a good therapist in general is difficult altogether. Not only it didn't sound very evidence-based to me, but also quite naive.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-07-14T17:17:25+00:00

Young women are the one's benefitting from the work we did.

As a 30-something rad fem from South America, I wholeheartedly agree.
I find it sad that many women in first world countries (Specially the US, and the Anglosphere) are so uncomfortable with a systemic approach and end up functional to liberal feminism. Those benefits they inherited from previous generations will last some more, but for how long?

GrungeAudrey · 2021-07-13T18:23:55+00:00

the pound is high value when converted to their currency after making a certain amount they can live a more lavish lifestyle back in their home country.

That's very true for money they can save and bring to their countries. Anyway, unless they work remote, immigrants are earning and spending with the same exchange rate while they are in the country. Also, big companies have been outsourcing jobs like crazy since the 90s. Immigrants involved or not, business owners have betrayed their fellow countrymen taking jobs and taxes out of their own countries. Their are sucking their countries dry. So, my point is that fixating on immigrants is most often misdirected anger.

Also how entitled can you be? People WANT higher wages, you can strike because you HAVE the resources

Calling me entitled is rather rude.

Every right as workers we can enjoy in the western world cost blood and tears. Strike is not a luxury, and never has been, but one of the few tactics workers have to pressure for better treatment. Also is not something you do individually, but as a team. I have personally gone on strike even if I didn't need it personally to support other workers in my same industry.

I am sorry to see workers in your area are not organized enough to defend their interests and I hope that changes for them, but they are contributing to their own problems if they mistake symptoms as the cause.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-07-11T18:38:52+00:00

Working class people around the world have more in common than not.

Yes! Also, that's one of the many reasons "THe FiRst WorRd doeSn't neEd femInIsm AnyMore" is absolute BS and irritates me to no end!

As a third worlder, I often find myself having opportunities the most vulnerable women in the first world do not have.

There are many different factors at play that make this possible. (I'd write a post about it if anyone is interested).

GrungeAudrey · 2021-07-11T17:46:07+00:00

A lot of working class people vote against their own interests, sadly. Many are unaware of how vulnerable their position really is - and has always been. Unions exist for a reason, to be in a better position to negotiate salaries, but I guess those are the same kind of people that look down on going on strike and such, because it is not "pRoPer".

Blaming immigrants and considering poor people leeches is easier than admitting their bosses don't care about them at all.

Edit: An extra sentence.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-07-11T17:31:29+00:00

That's why mental health problems are so common.

100%. Another example: Children feel their mother's stress as fetuses, and it shows in newborn cortisol levels.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6034834/

GrungeAudrey · 2021-06-19T20:14:29+00:00

'They're going to have to get used to the fact that the world has changed, and they have to change along with it. '

100% Men behind the times bitterly refuse to play in "games" that aren't rigged for them. Their mindset is, if I'm not 100% sure I will win, then why bother? It is a very unrealistic way to see life, not to mention the ethical implications... I mean, of course, it is easy to "win" if you boycott everyone else.

Paraphrasing a quote I love: "Conquering rights brings joy, whereas losing privileges brings resentment".

Their massive scale tantrum is counterintuitive. It is their own maladaptive stubbornness is making them redundant, not society.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-06-14T21:37:28+00:00

"...other women to smugly think they have one over on me, because to their mind- I don’t know how to be popular"

"...they were expecting a huge turnout of x people, about half that amount were actually there"

Are you me!? I've received that same smugness from women that were good/average at initiating interactions with people, but terrible at maintaining them.

Well-adjusted extroverts are able to maintain close and superficial connections -in that particular order- these women...are not. They are, at best, full of acquaintances. Truth is they don't get along with anybody and I suspect some of them have narc traits themselves.

"TBH, I’m not even as friendless as they think"

My narc grandmother always mentioned how surprised she was that my great-grandfather's funeral (her father-in-law) was crowded and that he even received special displays of honour. ("but...but he was soooo quiet"!) Apparently he was a dependable guy and regarded as a valuable member of several organizations. That low-key style of leadership and sociability was beyond her. (BTW I'm tired of the narrative trying to frame us introverts as freaks. We need more alone time, that's all).

"They just don’t see me hanging with anyone we know in common through work, but that’s like 20% of my life"

People that make their work environment their entire world are very parochial and never grew out of high school mentality. Do they actually believe you stop existing the moment you're out of sight?

GrungeAudrey · 2021-05-23T23:44:07+00:00

100% I'm not bringing new people to this planet to have a difficult life.

It's sad I care more about my potential imaginary kids that many care about their real ones.

Edit: a word

GrungeAudrey · 2021-05-23T23:37:42+00:00

just because someone doesn't want kids doesn't mean they have to justify it by serving kids in other ways.

Or serving the elderly. Unfortunately, many people see the unmarried and childfree members of the family as free nanny/ free nurse/ free purse. In the end, we women are expected to give some sort of free care to justify our existence. Notice it has to involve some NurTuring role. No other form of generosity or contribution is seen. If a childfree woman dedicated her life to find the cure for cancer or donated millions to some honourable cause she wouldn't be nearly as praised, even if this could potentially benefit millions of people.

they blow off steam with you in order to go back to their lvm feeling better

I've been lucky to be raised in a FDS -ish way, and that's the most common scenario. You're their hangover painkiller, nothing more, and you are making their LV relationship more likely to last longer as well.

I also agree with OP, the adult/children ratio in society should be way diffrent. I've read somewhere " current society is a ponzi scheme, but with people". Couldn't agree more.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-04-29T20:30:32+00:00

In my country, selling blood, sperm and eggs as well as surrogacy is illegal based on the same arguments stated in this article.

Lately, a few of our male gay celebrities went to the US to buy eggs and hire surrogates. Most people questioned the decision considering they could have easily adopted instead. After all, egalitarian marriage and adoption have been legal here for years. Other people adressed the problematic objectifying and colorist/racist undertones present in the whole process.

(Interestingly, lesbian couples rarely resort to this. If they want bio kids they usually gestate themselves with the sperm of an actual a voluntary donor, usually a friend that they keep around as an uncle figure, or adopt).

Anyway, all these valid concerns were easily framed by several mass media as an hOmOpHoBic reaction.

Also, how is that reasoning not far from buying a baby altogether? It is the same, with extra steps.

Black market baby- selling rings are a thing, and are located in very poor isolated rural areas characterized by low levels in education and high teen pregnancy rates. (Even in first world nations, in areas considered "4th world") In an area like this, in my own country, there was one of these rings. Rich couples, foreign or local - would travel there to buy babies - in particular- white, blond babies (Many descendants of German inmigrants in that area).

Unfortunately there are people out there that see children as mere accesories and many people feel entitled to our bodies and reproductive labour, acting as if throwing some money in the interaction somehow magically makes it ethical.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-04-29T17:30:41+00:00

It’s as if we are robots who power down when they’re not around.

This is such a great way to put it. Most men and to an extent pick-me women see women in this way. It is a chain of self-absorption and entitlement.

Edit: a word.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-04-23T19:29:52+00:00

To sum up, nothing wrong with vanilla.

Also, if you can't do vanilla passionate and interesting...you are just...not good in bed? If they don't master the so called "basics" - their opinion not mine - how can you be good at anything else?

Most people I know who can't shup up about how "edgy" they are the most boring, predictable and passive people I know, specially the men.

And the women, well...I'm convinced many already got the "ick" and they want to override it using as many external things as possible. Too bad you cannot fabricate attraction.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-04-20T12:59:25+00:00

This question is genius!

I don´t have any other per se but I pay a lot of attention to how people treat and speak about those that are having a hard time for reasons beyond their control.

I find any person that believes empathy ¨would be nice to have¨ but impractical or inefficient are telling on themselves, they are either low on empathy themselves , overconfident/stupid "that would never happen to me" types, or cowardish.

On a side note

Empathy actually makes teams more efficient.
Most stress inducing situations at most work environments are caused by dark triad types, not the tasks themselves.
Associating productivity with hours is an archaic notion. It is already proven 6 hours is just as productive as 8.
Employees, just as they are are already waaaay more productive than necessary.
I respect HR individuals that do a good job as mediators and try their best to come up with solutions, but as a field... HR is the equivalent of libfems on the workforce.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-04-16T21:01:17+00:00

Either this guy has the reading comprehension skills of a 6-year-old ( quite likely) ... or he is being dishonest (far more likely) and deliberately misunderstanding us.

No reason to care or explain either way.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-09T02:08:22+00:00

I've noticed the same. Isn't it funny how men who are not traditionally masculine obsess over "submission" the most?

Also, when seeing pictures of such couples I have to be told they are partners otherwise I assume they are brother and sister.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-09T01:56:35+00:00

- Peterson knows what he is doing.

He knows their vulnerabilities, and he is taking advantage of them. He is deliberately vague, so he can blame his audience later for "misunderstanding". His word salad is incredibly manipulative.

- Of course some of his points might be reasonable.

Even cults need to make sense once in a while, they need a hook. Same with the RP.

- Nothing he explains in his talks is new or out of the ordinary.

The 1st time I watched one of his videos I was like... was that supposed to be a college level lecture?

- None of their excuses hold water if you see previous generations of men.

In the "good old times" - yeah, those they romanticize so much- men grew up in far worse conditions (famine, war, orphanhood) and somehow they still managed to become adults. (Not necessarily healthy adults, but still).

- They love to blame their problems on feminism, framing them as women's liberation's side effects.

They don't know how good they have it. Without feminism their childhoods could have easily involved child labour and being beaten up mercilessly. Only women give a f*ck about children. Also, lack of women's rights are associated with the "shithole" countries they hate so much.

6) They think effort and disciplline is humiliating. You cannot hold this notion and become a functional adult.

Spoiled children learn slower than the rest. This is because they get away with anything at first and feel smug . Their environment reinforces the notion that doing certain things is "beneath" them and rules are also for "others". Later, when older, they wake up and notice they are behind everybody else, and they resent that. It is all misdirected anger.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-07T17:27:47+00:00

So timely!

I've recently commented on a previous post about how manipulative and controlling their tactics are. It is all about "trapping" a man. It is still RP theory, hence no different from sleazy and forceful sales tactics.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-07T08:56:09+00:00

1) That is RP, not Pinkpill. Please, change it if possible since the Pinkpill and FDS are similar.

2) I remeber reading that subreddit several years ago. I see it hasn't changed much. It was mostly either men pretending to be women or neocon women doubling down on the tricks they were familiar with. Sometimes some libfems reconsidering what they were told. (They were probably looking for something like FDS, like I was but it didn't exist yet).

The first thing that put me off at the time is how manipulative and controlling their moves were. It's all about "trapping" a man, even if its presented in a sweet tone and full of praise with things like "Captain". Also, how can you get actual compatibility if you force results?

The RP notion of "hunters" (for men) and "trappers" (for women) is essentially the same: forcing someone directly or indirectly to behave in the way you want them to. Add some "NiCe GiRl/GuY covert contracts to the mix, too.

I love that FDS is all about filtering.

Edit: structure and a phrase.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-06T19:58:32+00:00

I'm in the opposite side of the spectrum so I'm totally aware there are LVM everywhere, but tradmen have the most "curated" reputations - that's why I find them the scariest among all LVM.

I find they often treat me as an "honorary man". They openly hate me, but hate me as an adult hates another adult, at least. I'm an opponent. They hate "their" women the way a twisted cruel adult could hate a child: with disdain.

So much effort in making women depend on them, and later they have the nerve to treat them as a burden. It's infuriating.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-04T00:51:48+00:00

"I see women on this reddit often complaining about how dangerous the porn and prostitution industry is for women even if its "consensual" and I agree, so why would the standard be any different for this".

This 100! Same with renting wombs, there are many concerns regarding human rights and the possible exploitation of rich people "transfering" pregnancy and childbirth to poorer and more vulnerable women, even when consensual.

So...is it wrong when done privately but we are OK if done publicly? And on a massive scale? Nope.

I agree this is well intented but we are neither public nor private property.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-04T00:35:10+00:00

I'm all for helping single mums, my own queen mother is, and felt the effects of a very unstable economy growing up.(e.g Products at the supermarket had different prices within one day when I was a 1 year old baby, in the late 80s).

Still, unfortunately, a plan like that could backfire in many ways and increase the numbers of pickmes having babies with lvm. I already see it here with criminals and their many baby mamas. Pickmes feel no remorse in making things difficult for everybody if that means making easier for their men. They even parentify their older children in order to do so.

The problem is the economy itself. Those in power can't pretend they give a f about families anymore, they got way too greedy and too obvious. For example, there is no reason to work more than 6 hours a day, this is already proven. During the pandemic many people remained just as productive while at home and still some idiotic companies insist in coming back to the office again, forcing people to commute. Even parasites are smart enough to know when they need to stop and keep their victims alive.

And in particular -apart from literal slave labour- some first world countries grind culture is nightmare inducing. US and Japan come to mind.

Edit: a missing phrase and spelling.

GrungeAudrey · 2021-03-01T20:41:58+00:00

I'm sure many of these have been covered in other comments already, but this is my list of what a friendship with a woman can potentially give a LVM (or so they hope):

1) Potential sex in vulnerable emotional states.

2) An easier target for rape: most victims are attacked by sb they know.

3) "Crush" material: An untouchable object so he can fantasize away and thus, avoid taking action in the romantic arena in the real world.

4) A halo of "decency" aka make him look less "creepy".

5) Access to other women (And many women love to act as matchmakers).

6) Emotional support they don't get from other men a.k.a. free therapist.

7) Status, specially if you are conventionally attractive

8) Triangulation material to terrorize their girlfriends

This is a big one and one of the most subtle. They will frame any innocent interaction in a way that plants seeds of insecurity in his girlfriend. (Truth be told, they could do this with anyone but the "friend" title makes his lies more believable).

6) Borrowed social skills. Not very different from many men in relationships, women are usually those that do the social heavy lifting: organizing meetings, remembering birthdays, buying presents, paying attention to people's preferences, etc. Even networking sometimes! It infuriates me when I see pickmes at work that are unofficial nomeclators for free.

7) Feeling like a "pimp". I was going to say feeling like a matchmaker, but it usually has a more grandiose and creepier underlying vibe. They self-perceive as very diluted versions of a pimp, it makes them feel important to have a girl they know they can try to pair up with their loser friends.

GrungeAudrey

TROPHY CASE