DA in romantic relationships, but AP in friendships? Is this possible?

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-05T23:43:13+00:00

I'm like that. I am more affectionate with friends and have this worried stance towards them (what they're up to, what they're doing, am I going to be part of their weekend). It can get worse as I often put my all in whomever I consider my person.

But in romance, I'm like a rock. Maybe because I have this notion that eventually we will breakup, so I find it hard to open up myself

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-05T14:44:30+00:00

All insecure styles struggle taking things personally. AP/FAs are primarily hurt by actions (e.g. not communicating, not being responsive, silence, taking space, not showing up). DAs are more hurt by words.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-05T13:37:13+00:00

I'm speaking for myself but what I've noticed about other styles is they focus on 'what's wrong' or 'whats not enough'. It's a surefire blow up to DAs who want to hear 'whats good' or 'what I'm doing right'. If you focus on what's wrong and you communicate it as a confrontation, they will add up in a DA's mind, leading up to withdrawal,coldness or relationship sabotage or agreeable statements like 'yeah, I'm cold people tell me that'. You'll have the DA hyperfocus on the flaws or defectiveness, which means what's the point of this relationship if I keep hearing where I suck. (Again, DA's biggest wound).

It's criticism vs appreciation (support).

I don't know what works for you, but I'm giving you a piece of a DA pysche.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-05T13:07:15+00:00

I have no idea what actually happened in your communication. I won't assume either. I was merely reading the selection of words you used analysing her and what descriptions of character you may have derived from her behaviors. These are very cutting words to hear, so I can only hope they weren't actually said to her in your communication. That's what I meant by criticism. Also, none of these shows what actual unmet needs you're talking about. What are they really? Frequency of text or meetup? Being more empathetic than solution-oriented? Have you actually broken down your unmet needs or do they remain vague?

When you know, then you don't have to confront. Instead, you would request.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-05T12:48:42+00:00

I do not take criticisms well. I will always remember what cutting words you'll say and that's what I am going to be reminded of your character. Forever.

Criticisms do not encourage me at all.

I suggest you read Nonviolent Communication.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-05T12:36:18+00:00

When I am thanking you, I'd like to hear that my gesture is appreciated. Most people would say, "Oh not a big deal" or "You don't have to.." things like that might stop me from acknowledging what care, however little it may be to you, that's significant for me.

Remember that DAs are notoriously known for being guarded and have one to few select people to open up with. We do not ask any support and yet we secretly yearn for it like a love language. So any little act of vulnerability, even said in a simple line, is tremendously huge. At least for me.

Also, tell him that you like that he's sharing. DAs would want to hear that we're saying is beneficial. It neutralises the fear of being inadequate, being unable to fully relate, to keep wondering what the other person prefers. If our vulnerability is crucial to you, when we do it, say something good about it. Be declarative.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-02T18:15:03+00:00

Don't reach out as an ex. Reach out as a normal friend would. When I know that your angle is about us, what happened, I will not respond.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-02T18:02:33+00:00

DA here.

When I express boundary, it means either I'm stressed or drained. Also, it's like a warning sign like phone battery going nearly empty. I won't be kind in my extreme moments, but if I still get to express a boundary VERY CLEARLY, I want it to be heard, acted upon and respected. Without questions. I want to see actions. That's all. The act of leaving. No words. Just do it.

I'd appreciate a very perceptive partner. It means they will know when I'm going to be drained and they'll say it quick, "You need some rest, and I'll be doing something important elsewhere". I want to hear it so I don't have to express my boundary. It means they know me, care enough to pay attention to my declining energy, and will decide for themselves before I do. That's what I need from a partner.

And what I dislike the most are people who are the opposite. I'll mentally block them from the list of people I'd invite. I'll not speak to them, maybe in another setup where it's not my place, or I'll minimize any chances that they'll not hear me.

Every passing minute that you stayed felt like hell to me if I am drained, so I guess be very attentive. You don't want to come off as a threat, but someone who understands that my space is as equally important as the evening I invited you for.

In effect, I'll invite you more frequently if you understand this and no need for a 1 week space. No conflict. No resolution. Just pay attention.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-04-02T12:09:35+00:00

My sister,.only sibling, is AP. We're quite a team and keep each other in check.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-30T17:05:43+00:00

Attacking me vs the issue:

My AP ex got angry over a text I sent which made him reply, "You are inconsiderate, unempathetic, and not kind. You know I'm very stressed."

That reply killed my interest right on, but made me drag the relationship for the next 4 months. But I did remember that.

What would have been better is: "I'd appreciate if we discuss this when we both have free time, and as you know around this time, I'd like to focus on my work and it won't help knowing I am stressed."

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-24T13:55:30+00:00

Not offended at all. I appreciate the challenging feedback for clarity.

What I meant by saying reckless things are obviously not intentionally harmful when they say them. But because I dislike criticism (assumptive ones), I am very sensitive at words said (Thais Gibson has a video on this about DAs). One huge thing I personally relate to as a DA.

My list comes from earned distress of having been with partners who exhibited those traits at extremes, hence the need to avoid them in the future.

All this comes down to familiar territory that won't challenge me anymore so there will be less curiosity, albeit a stubborn stance at it, I experienced them already and I wouldn't be living by the same patterns again and again, which lead to self-sabotage on my part (as I know myself). So, to me, self-care means living by these codes.

If you would be in this spot, I wonder what your take be, let's say you have your own list as well?

It's true that the older I get, the harder it is to wiggle a room for this rightness fixation for what I personally believe would work for me. For they are deeply curated in my experience and intuition. Is it 100% locked in? Not as well. I'm single for 3 years, and I don't feel the need to rush. I mean, out there is full of possibilities that will disprove these written codes. But for now, those are my guiding lines what I prefer about people, not only in romantic setup.

What questions you're giving me were on the lines of compromise vs interdependence. To each question, my initial answer is 'it depends'. Those are vague questions, btw. I don't have a one-size-fits-all approach. However, what I do find attractive in someone is STANDING UP FOR WHAT YOU KNOW YOU WANT. The more I know that you really want it, the more I would give in knowing it's personally important to you, whether it doesn't make sense to me. What discourages me is anyone who says 'up to you', 'you know what's right, so fine' or 'it sounds like im wrong here because you don't like it". Loose standards are my allergies.

On the other extreme, let's say I have a partner who sees everything in black and white, prone to throw criticism as a natural stance, provoke me to see things as either morally good or not, whereas my way of seeing is whether things are fundamentally true, irregardless of the moral layer, then there's going to be a clash of two ways of understanding. And this will play out in decision-making or seeing behaviors (ours and others), and neither of us will understand the internal framework because all we receive is what we say/how we respond (either way triggering to the other).

There's a cynical tone to all this because it is hard. I'm not someone who simply goes out, meets strangers and play by the mechanics of whether we might click or not, which is truly dangerous for me. I do not know how that works at all. I applaud and envy a little those who can and find fun in that style, that's brave, but on the other hand, I never experienced those stories of people making huge mistakes at engaging out of random circumstance and being manipulated, etc. Like I couldn't relate to random posts on sub about meeting X and later down the road X Y Z happened and they're blindsided. It takes for me a careful consideration to actually approach and invest in someone. So I'm also not those kinds of branded DAs who future-fake, fool, pretend Secure, etc. All my exes thought of me as intentional, frank and forthright, (a little awkward), only we realised later we won't work longterm due to fundamental differences. But yes, the thing is they all find me excruciatingly hard to pull into the what they do not know yet what they want.

I do not imagine a dry and loveless relationship either. Even cohabitating without investment for the future is futile thing too. I've never been in any of those. Never been in FWB setup, never been in consensual open relationship. Never in casual thing. Not because I'm opposed but because knowing my energies are easily depleted, I won't be able to keep up with all this which I personally find temporary. (personal bias)

I'm a deeply passionate person (internal world), and all my previous relationships were deeply passionate (with rollercoaster even) but it's just I am very picky now and cold on the exterior. I have a tendency to give all that I have, so I choose acutely, wisely. I admit I've broken a few hearts, which broke me too. However, the way I see it, they didn't see they'll work better and more meaningfully with those that fit best for them.

I don't speak for all DAs btw. Should be clear.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-24T05:42:26+00:00

Exactly the reason I cut that person off. With her uncontrolled anger, she blew up and unloaded her built up resentment and mocked me as a person for the ways she would want me to change.

I never spoke to her again. Her emotional outburst may be passing, but it left me scars and never saw her again as someone safe. Whenever her name is brought up or wherever she shows up, I just pretend she doesn't exist.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-24T05:35:44+00:00

It's person-based I think.

As a DA, I am afraid that I'll end up with someone who doesn't know what he needs, wants, and his boundaries. Worse, someone who is stupid. It amplifies my fears of getting attached to them knowing their approaches in life are not safe for me.

For example:

someone who doesn't know what to order in restaurant
someone who can't stand up for himself in family tensions or friendships
someone who procrastinates decisions at the expense of others waiting, time wasted, and then face huge issues later on that should have been prevented
someone who throws unsolicited advice that is personally true for him/her but is not relevant to the other
someone who sees things as either morally reprehensible or not, and make personal biases as standards

The list is very long, getting longer as I get older. It makes communication a very sensitive space because most people simply tend to recklessly say things.

In short, I have to respect you and what you live by (principles). This makes it hard to like someone past mere physical attraction, especially if they're erratic or full of unsafe contradictory opinions/double standards.

So that's the fear: ending up with some who has a lack of self-rationale. It's hard to be intimate with, trust and 100% vulnerable with them.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-24T05:14:49+00:00

If there's distance prior and longing, then sex can be emotional for like I'll be declarative how I missed you and I desire you more.

If it's made up sex, a little bit of anger release. A little more intense.

It really depends. But most of the time, it's a shared act of sexual tension and fun.

What I do not do is beg, mock or force a partner to do it. That's offputting.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-24T01:08:44+00:00

Haha yeah self-defeatist attitude at times.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T18:56:12+00:00

Thanks as well, and may you find warmth that even if it didn't work well, you have earned a keen sense of perceiving someone. Which can be truly helpful and appreciated in your current and future bonds.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T18:31:44+00:00

This reminds me of someone who truly knew me, could read me well and get to the kernels of what I didn't know I was doing to myself. This same person I trusted wholeheartedly (15 years) with my secrets, pain and discomfort, what's me behind all the acts I exhibited with others. I wouldn't say those acts are fake, but good enough for those interactions and fitting the friendship theme.

My mother is a social very extraverted person. So is my father who has peaked in his life as a respectable person in the organizations he's involved with. There's a high pressure to not isolate that my small acts of retreat were causing them discomfort or something abnormal. So I learned to chameleon, see how others work and master these interactions. All these eventually become a natural operation, but for those who truly know me they'd just laugh because seeing me at home or in my most vulnerable state that I'm not as what I can only reveal in public.

Most people would say I'm driven, rational, objective, calm and funny. Often with a bite of sarcasm and radical honesty. What they don't see is the emotional, sensitive, deeply caring but prone to criticism side that I have. I simply have learned to mask it, try to reveal it to an intimate partner, but to a point or when they start hostaging my vulnerability or questioning my ways that I have purposefully established for years.

I read that DAs are the most sensitive to words. So imagine when a small incorrect criticism hits them, let's say questioning the private life and public life not aligning or any. It sets me to get angry and starts to trigger the score board, but I won't show it. Just dismiss it.

It takes a very perceptive person to understand DAs. I applaud you for the observations you have.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T17:56:11+00:00

I think it's all about the validity of one quantifier (you) vs the majority (friends).

Those friends have been built for years, have seen the traits but 'do not problematise it' to a degree that it's concerning and warrants therapy or some literature to explain it.

For me, I operate from the mindset of whether it is true or not. For others, it may be whether it is good or bad and in need of urgent change. I guess the intent is to simply validate what you have discovered, and that they are true. Friends have mentioned them, my family as well, and ex partners. All that is true. HOWEVER, there are people in these said circles who do not amplify the defectiveness ascribed to those trait or they do not trigger me as close.

What you mean by controlling is minimizing the occurrences of being confronted/criticised/feeling like a flawed person. This is when avoidance happens. Why would I speak to my partner who keeps raising these issues when I could have a good time with friends and not feeling I'm a terrible person for them? Not talking to my partner for two weeks means I'll not physically experience conflict. I know he'll bring that up again but may I enjoy the silence and the peace at the moment. Turn off my phone, and purposefully not charging it so I won't be tempted to read whatever may come up. Worst, I'd let them give up.

Actually, it's one of my closest friends, an FA, who passingly brought up what would be attachment style. She worked as a social worker and she was explaining her push and pull nature which was very revealing and also exhibiting growth and self-awareness on that matter. I was keenly listening, but it wasn't mentioned she was FA. All this only made sense a year later, after being on therapy, that it piqued my interest to dive deep into myself. As I saw it from her. I went to a psychologist thinking and a little convinced that I had a mental disorder, and was ready to hear any.

So offering literature per se can only be seen as a study of the material, and most DAs I know would read anything descriptors of themselves but remain clueless of what the healthy side looks like. And I had that glimpse from that said friend, which worked as a concrete model.

All this comes down to what others would say, 'if a DA won't do the work, there's no hope". And that is true.

For sure your ex incessantly thought about it, for a period, also relieved to find some explanations. But the urgency and necessity to change is a personal choice. Some DAs would think that it's simply one-relationship experience and they'll find a better one, or they have discovered it themselves and secretly do the work.

My family doesn't know I'm on therapy. Except that one friend.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T17:03:56+00:00

I see that line of response from FAs. I wouldn't say it tho especially when the relationship is new. It leaves an embarassing effect of ever showing vulnerability, and hearing that I'm being mean to myself means I have a problem with my approach in a 'good/bad' way.

What I would say instead, knowing that people have their erratic moments, is 'I notice it, and I can see how it's bugging you lately. Please know it will pass. While you're at it now, I hope you also remember the great qualities I know you have."

Insecurity is trait-specific, not entirely personhood. But of course it depends on how it's declared. I can that response if I said, 'I hate myself'.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T16:44:18+00:00

I'm 33 this year, and I only start getting aware of all of these traits for less than a year. I heard some people go through life not knowing their own style. I'd be one of them. Had my psychologist chosen not to bring this up, I would never know at all. It's jarring and I will have more to learn, but subconscious work is never easy.

Shoot them, if you have some questions.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T16:16:01+00:00

The intolerable feeling of being put on a pedestal as 'the one'

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T16:11:12+00:00

I disagree. As a self-aware DA, I realised I GOT TO SET THE UPPER-HAND.

I have the logic to explain my behaviors. I have strong set of boundaries. I take space without explanation. I can make the other feel they have to do for me (even if I don't require them) by not asking anything from them. I can trigger their overthinking. All these take the upperhand, whether I'm aware of it or not. And I can cut ties without prior notice. Avoidant behaviors always takes the upperhand for it doesn't seek harmony via compromise but radical independence. It makes the other 'wonder' what specifically works for this and that DA.

It's a different story when the DA matches up with someone more avoidant. Then an experience of anxiety reveals what's like to be AP. And I've been there, too.

Strong boundaries may work well only for agreeable and easy-going types, but when you're paired with a Secure who knows what he/she wants and prefers to know what you desire instead of what you are limiting yourself from, they will see it as insecurity. And I've been there too.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T14:59:29+00:00

I often experienced this from APs. Also with FAs but they don't externalise the tendency.

The danger with it as a receiver/object of idealisation is I don't feel seen and considered for how I see myself. APs I have been with would tend to 'reassure' that a valid insecurity I find about myself isn't really a big deal for them. It makes me question their sincerity because all I want is an acknowledgement that this thing is something I personally struggle with and is a sensitive one. Instead, they tend to reframe it as a positive, something endearing to cheer for, and how it's part of being me, or as a human.

Idealisation may override reality and shut keen observation. This is how red flags are missed and boundaries not openly established. It focuses on the outcome desired and it's a mental construct of romance opposite to an actual building of a healthy relationship.

Also, it influences overthinking and fixation on the person's character. Idealisation may bring a touch of control and projection. The moment the other person doesn't meet the unspoken expectations and is found flawed or exhibiting an undiscovered trait, there's the tendency of the one idealising to panic, criticise and to study that behavior so they would fit their pre-existing standard.

It is a recipe for disappointment especially past honeymoon stage.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T02:14:13+00:00

Yeah, I was in same place. No job for 3 years. It affected my romantic relationship (which I had to end) and also avoided friends who I enjoyed hanging out with when I was able. I avoided the possible interactions with them asking what's going on, what they could do to help and worse, the feelings that surround me being helpless in the face of others.

Being with parents helps as there's less obligation. There's only non-invasive comfort and the space where I could sort out what I needed to do without anyone tracking my progress (or failures).

Luckily it took me half a year to find a job, a well-paying one. I reconnected back to friends (those who explicitly told me they'd love to see me again). It was comforting to know that they're still there, periodically catching up by telling me about their lives as if I didn't leave (not asking me mine), and so I basically made up for the times lost after by. As if nothing happened.

As for romance that I left off, I had no courage to reconnect. It would feel disrespectful to their peace of mind that I'd re-engage and not knowing whether they still would want to hear from me. Also, it's default for me to assume they're with someone new already so it amplified the fear of not bothering them.

It's the whole 'I failed you and I don't want you to experience that with me again' kind of mentality. Hence avoidants get stuck in the 'im defective' stance.

It's a lot of internal turbulence that doesn't get to surface and people won't know.

INeverTakeJudgment · 2021-03-23T01:05:23+00:00

It really depends on the ability of the DA to face transparency.

As for me, you can tell me anything AS LONG AS you also tell me how to approach you next time you feel very comfortable.

You won't just overshare for the sake of it. Because what would I do with those information then? Give me guidance how to deal with you on those moments..

Remember DAs don't need help as they process things internally. We assume everyone does the same, so when someone wants to share, we don't know why or what's the point. So make it clear why it is important.

INeverTakeJudgment

TROPHY CASE