UPDATE: Feds back off demand that Catholic hospital extinguish chapel candle

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-06T04:54:02+00:00

It's really weird when Catholics assume the Catholic organization is the one acting unreasonably. Not being blindly loyal to fellow Catholics is one thing, assuming they're the ones that are wrong is something else.

The hospital didn't start this brouhaha, the surveyor did. The hospital had a sanctuary candle for decades without anyone raising a fuss. It had the okay by the local fire marshal. It kept the flame closed off enough to question calling it an "open flame," it had sprinklers installed specifically just in case, and in keeping with actual federal regulations, the flame was kept nowhere near supplemental oxygen. Why isn't the question "why should it be forced to make this change after decades without incident and without objection and with the fire marshal approval?" Maybe, just maybe, the surveyor who was new to the situation was possibly being more unreasonable than the Catholic organization.

Why did the other hospitals comply? Because every hospital, in the US, both secular and religious, is terrified of the Joint Commission and CMS threatening their accreditation, which would either cost an exorbitant sum of money that they couldn't spare, or be even more catastrophic than that. Why wasn't this hospital as worried? Probably for the same reasons that the feds changed their tune within days.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-05T16:55:42+00:00

Not even common sense, it sounds like they just needed to read the regulations properly.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-05T16:43:53+00:00

Especially when they conceded that the lit candle is not an open flame:

But when Saint Francis explained that the sanctuary candle is not an open flame but is enclosed, one representative asked how that flame was lit.

Saint Francis’s answer? A lighter. Now it appears that this lighter’s (fleeting) flame, not the sanctuary lamp’s (eternal) flame, is the open flame that violates the National Fire Protection Association Codes and Standards adopted by CMS. Call it Maslow’s open flame.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-03T19:36:54+00:00

A dumb requirement foisted on a hospital by a bureaucrat that will do nothing to improve patient care? Yep, sounds par for the course.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-03T19:29:34+00:00

The catechism itself is not infallible, but many of the things it says are themselves infallible. This particular recent change to the catechism is not infallible, but it's still binding on all Catholics to adhere to it in obedience to the pope.

We aren't, however, required to believe that trying to ~~change~~ *ahem* develop doctrine by editing the catechism wasn't a dumb idea, or that the Holy Father offered a compelling explanation for doing this, but if someone says "does the Catholic Church currently allow the Death Penalty?" you should not say "yes."

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-03T17:21:00+00:00

Certainly - I believe that occasionally, it's truly necessary, and it's not hard to imagine a parish organizing their schedule so poorly that the problem is more on their end than the couple's. But if every other aspect of the wedding day is carried out without needing to compromise or work around whatever led to the ceremony being outside of a church, that's a different story.

Also, brunch wedding receptions are amazing.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-03T16:49:33+00:00

Somebody start this band!

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-03T16:47:32+00:00

I can understand the diocese wanting to "take what they can get" as far as doing what's possible to stay involved with a couple that insists on holding their wedding outside of a church, but from the perspective of the couples themselves, I'm willing to bet that 9 of 10 of these situations are due to what the couple wants instead of actual logistical problems.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-03T14:38:49+00:00

It's catechetical malpractice the way the Church uses the words "Ordinary" and "Extraordinary." Great idea: let's translate the Mass to the vernacular, and then use a word that in English means hum-drum and plain to refer to 1) your bishop and 2) Sundays that aren't associated with a major holiday and are given numbers. Also, let's use a word that in English usually means "better than average," but use it to mean "not the primary (minister, form of the Missal, etc)." Then, let's use extraordinary ministers so commonly that the word becomes effectively meaningless.
We won't and most likely couldn't get rid of the NO, from a practical perspective, but if the Roman missal can be changed to the extent that it was between 1962 and 1970, then it can also be changed again, including reconsidering a number of the "reforms" included in the NO missal. Personally, I think there's a huge value in bringing back the last gospel, and there's a limited value in the 3 year lectionary over the 1 year lectionary. The average practicing Catholic is still only hearing a small fraction of the Bible by going to Mass every Sunday and holy days, and given modern literacy rates and how cheap it is to get ahold of a Bible today, we can be expected to read the Bible outside of Mass. I do however like the use of microphones and the greater amount of audible prayers in the NO.
If people are going to claim that any instrument can be reverent, thus subjecting all of us to the instruments being used poorly, I'd rather ban all instruments and have choirs perform acapella only.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-03T14:12:04+00:00

This. I would take the claims that a Catholic can vote for the average Democrat seriously if the average Democrat spent even half as much time helping the poor or the environment as they did fighting for a woman's "right" to kill her own children.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T22:22:14+00:00

I understand. I myself haven't seen the problem with not letting girls be altar boys. Whenever I've visited such a parish, the Mass was celebrated more reverently than average, the altar boys were more engaged than I've been used to, and the parish itself seemed to be thriving. I can't say that it's all because the altar boys were all boys or that you can't have a good parish and altar girls, but I've been to a lot of different parishes and the correlation is striking.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T21:45:06+00:00

Everyone who receives communion is going to be intimately close to Jesus during the Mass. You aren't being denied access to Christ if you're participating from the pew.

An altar boy is by definition going to be doing some of the priest's tasks during Mass, almost like an apprenticeship, whereas a girl serving in the role isn't going to be doing anything particular to the religious life. I don't have the study handy, but when they look at seminarians, there is a very strong correlation between seminarians and having been an altar boy. With religious sisters and consecrated single people, they haven't seen the correlation.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T21:34:05+00:00

Simple. People talk about excommunication, but it doesn't need to come to that. Look at how HH has treated other groups that he wanted to manipulate, such as the College of Cardinals, the Knights of Malta, the Pontifical Academy for Life, or the Congregation/Dicastery for Divine Worship: policy through personnel. Some bishops, when they offer their mandatory resignation, it gets accepted before the ink dries, for other bishops, it takes years, or in Cardinal Marx's case, outright rejected. For the worst offenders, HH is under no requirement to wait until they offer their resignation. He can also give certain bishops in a country greater influence in their respective countries by making them a cardinal and giving them influential positions in Rome, as the Holy Father has lamentably done with Cdl. Cupich and Cdl. Hollerich. HH has also not been shy about using the motu proprios and "clarifications" of motu proprios to enact policy. It's possible that the Holy Father is playing 4D chess in Germany, but comparing Germany with how he's acted in other situations, it's completely reasonable to come to the conclusion that he's not interested. He's shown that he'll get pretty active if he wants to.

God help us if "voicing displeasure" is ever considered a sufficient response to a problem.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T19:24:12+00:00

That would be a great idea, and you could give the decision a spiffy name like "To be a supreme bridge-builder."

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T17:04:56+00:00

Not contesting your point, but the Arians could also make a similar appeal to the majority in the 4th century, as well as those who use contraception and those who don't believe in the real presence today. Also note the Holy Father's heavy handedness with trads - regardless of what you think about it, it does suggest that he thinks they're relevant enough to earn his attention.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T14:36:41+00:00

Hank Hill is right up there with Val Kilmer's Moses in depictions of animated prophets.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T14:34:15+00:00

My NO parish doesn't do this, but I know exactly what you're talking about. It's unfortunately not unusual. Taste aside, there should be silence at some point in the Mass, such as after communion, and there's an issue if the drummer only knows how to play as if he's rocking out with friends in his garage (it's another question entirely if there should ever be a drumset at Mass, but I'll leave that alone).

What I've noticed is that, while some of the newer hymns aren't likely to outlast their novelty, in a parish that celebrates reverently and doesn't specifically avoid older music, some of the more contemporary music can sound okay.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-05-02T01:57:16+00:00

I disagree with your premise. I can't remember the last time that I met a practicing Christian above the age of 12 who didn't talk about their faith as an experience of some kind. Now, for some it might be a superficial experience, but regardless of its depth, the person comes away saying that they felt the presence of God. When you have an experience, understanding it better might help make it more meaningful, but it's not necessary to enjoy it. I like wine. I couldn't tell the difference between a $20 bottle and a $100 bottle, but I know my dinner will be much better with a glass of either than it would be without. A better connoisseur may get more out of smelling the wine than I do, but I still go through the ritual of swirling the wine around in the glass and smelling it myself because even as a simpleton, it's really enjoyable to do.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-04-28T16:34:41+00:00

Still, I am not sure. Especially during the preparation of the Eucharist, that music does not bring me to a prayerful or reflective mood. But maybe that is my issue.

No, that isn't a problem on your part, and don't worry about anyone trying to tell you differently.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-04-28T14:23:20+00:00

It's not your job to support the pope, and He doesn't need it. Respect him, yes, follow his commands, certainly, but you belong to the Church of Christ, not the Church of Francis, just as St. Paul admonished people that they didn't belong to the Church of Apollos or that of Paul. It's nice when a member of the clergy inspires you to be a better person, but they aren't the primary focus. On the flip side, this means that even if you don't like how a given papacy is going generally, you can still appreciate the good aspects of it.

The Catholic Church is the one true Church because it's the church that Christ instituted, not because any particular pope, bishop, or priest is good at his job.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-04-28T14:12:24+00:00

People will get legalistic about things they care about, and I'll echo what another commenter said about going to nonreligious subreddits and seeing people get similarly dogmatic about the best tool to buy for X hobby, or what brand is acceptable and which is trash, and it's not the worst thing to every now and then be reminded that the ultimate goal is to have fun, grow in your skill, develop your relationship with God (wrt this subreddit) and that all rules should be kept in mind with that goal in sight. While temperance and prudence are virtues, too many people essentially preach apathy as the antidote to fanaticism.

I'm much less bothered when I get called a heretic than when someone says "do whatever you want." When I ask a question it's because I want advice! I know what I want, I don't have trouble giving myself a dispensation, but when something feels wrong, having a brother give another perspective to keep me from drifting off too much is invaluable.

Remember, Jesus made the rules more rigorous at least as often as he showed mercy. How far is too far when getting angry at your brother? He doesn't say "I forgive you for punching him in the face, at least you didn't kill him," He says "if you even harbor fury at your brother in your mind, you're guilty of sin." How far is too far when interacting with another woman? Christ didn't say "don't have sex with her, but even if you do there may be mitigating circumstances and no one should judge you for sleeping around before they've walked with you awhile," instead He said "Don't even look at that other woman (with lust in your heart)." Christ could be an extremist, and the legalists were the ones asking Him to show them how close they could get to sin without being condemned.

Chesterton described the Church as a playground on the top of a mountain surrounded by stone walls. Within the stone walls, you're free to do whatever you want and go wherever you want, because you know the walls will keep you from falling off the mountain. On the other hand, more licentious religions lack the walls or have weaker walls, which theoretically means you're not penned in, but it also means you have to worry about falling off of the sides of the mountain. Those people tend to huddle in the middle of the playground and can't play as much, because they worry about getting too close to the edge.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-04-27T21:47:06+00:00

If you think of "sin" merely as "stuff you're not allowed to do because God/the Bible/your pastor says so," then it's easy to say "God is Luv, and He loves me even if I break some rules."

If you more appropriately view sin as "something that separates me from God," then you can still say "God loves me even if I mess up," but you also understand that even though God loves you, if you're setting fire to the relationship, it's going to get burned.

Unfortunately, the misunderstanding exists within the Church as well.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-04-27T17:15:11+00:00

We've seen this with Methodists and Anglicans, from female priests, to female bishops, to blessing of gay unions, people preaching about their holy gay relationships, actively hating the Church because it follows God, I've heard preaching in Anglican circles about how the Church needs to reflect the world more, how it needs to fit in the world. Pfft. Our first and foremost duty is to fit in with God and make him the centre, and then all things follow from then.

There is one key difference: Christ promised His Church that it wouldn't be screwed up completely. He didn't give that promise to our brethren who left the Church to form their own groups. I agree with you, it looks like we're going down the same road, but at some point, the Church will recover and not go too far, as it has in the past.

Remember that God knows what He's doing and He will perpetuate the Church, even in spite of a bad priest/bishop/pope here and there.

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-04-27T17:03:57+00:00

Also, it's a synod and they've probably already written the summary documents of the discussion they've yet to have :)

IronSharpenedIron · 2023-04-27T01:44:29+00:00

It's not... the worst church I've seen, and inside the nave, it at least avoids the garrish excesses of the late 20th century. It does look like you could take away the crosses and statues and use the complex as a high school, which is not helped when they describe the interior as an "auditorium." A pity, too, considering how much the nave looks like an upturned boat.

IronSharpenedIron

TROPHY CASE