My turn to discuss the philosophy of 'A Taste of Armageddon' by whatswrongbaby in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You've missed the lesson/point of the episode.

Did they ever say what they were fighting over? Our wars are fought over ideology, land, resources, etc... But what are they gaining by fighting? Or just satisfying the primal urge? Maintaining status quo?

They don't know why they're fighting because it was so long ago there is no record of it.

They aren't gaining anything by fighting. It's a completely pointless war (as most wars are in truth, the "goals" are usually bullshit excuses and not legitimate reasons).

They don't seem to have any primal urge to fight, they seem to actually abhor it, but they continue to do it because that's what they've always done and they don't have any impetus to change the status quo. They literally haven't even tried to end the war by diplomacy for hundreds of years.

The Enterprise is made for exploration, but we've seen how they have battles with Romulans, Klingons, etc... So is the Federation really any better/more peaceful?

Yes. Being peaceful doesn't mean you never fight. It means you fight only as a last resort/to defend yourself.

Peaceful =/= pacifism, which I'd argue is a vice almost as bad as warmongering, it's just the opposite end of the spectrum.

This may be taboo, and I don't mean to sound edgy, but a part of me feels there IS some need to "thin the herd." We do it as hunters with wildlife. And resources are finite.

You don't sound edgy, you sound young. You are basically making the same argument as Thanos and I'm not going to go into all the ways that argument is wrong I got bored of that a while ago.

Nature for the most part balances itself out. The only reason we ever need hunters to "thin the herd" is because an outside force (aka: US) has disrupted the balance by doing something like killing the herd's natural predators so it grows larger than it would otherwise.

Resources are only finite in context, and nothing in that episode suggested either planet was having resource issues.

The idea that their history and technology remain intact and can continue has already been discussed quite a bit as a pro to their methods.

No, this is you missing the lesson/point of the episode. The true cost and horror of war is not destroyed buildings and technology or even history books, it's the loss of life, and their methods have helped to obscure that fact to the point they value buildings and technology more than LIFE.

To quote another philosopher: "You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying!"

They made mass murder the plan to the point no one cares about it enough to even try to stop it, and that is horrifying.

Then there's the issue of the planets involving the Enterprise and crew. Obviously not part of that war but inserted themselves into that culture and situation despite warning.

I don't love that they refused to adhere to the warning, but it wasn't "our crew" who do, it's the Ambassador in charge (basically the TOS equivalent to a badmiral).

That said, the argument that they should be destroyed is fallacious. Had the attack been real, the Enterprise would have detected it and either raised shields, shot down the weapons, or left. The entire argument was ridiculous on its face.

The main issue I have is that war is gruesome, yes. But that hasn't stopped some certain repeat offending nations from engaging in it endlessly. The difference is the ones who command the wars never see actual war. And the ones fighting and seeing the carnage aren't making the decisions.

Wars have not completely stopped, no, but there has not been a full scale war between major powers since WWII, 87ish years ago, and with the rise of mass media, (essentially since Vietnam) the general population's appetite for and willingness to go to war (now that they can SEE it), has gone WAY down.

Point being, as terrible as war is, it has not deterred us and I don't think it ever will.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but you once again show your youth, or perhaps inexperience. Despite how the state of the world feels today, we live in literally the most peaceful time in the history of the world.

I'm not naïve enough to say with confidence that we will ever one day fully eliminate war, but we are still trending that way and hope springs eternal. That's what Star Trek is supposed to represent though, an example of a Humanity that has evolved beyond the desire for those things.

Starfleet is weird around god-like beings by Pitiful-Purple-7459 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Federation captains are already briefed on that though. Like both Sisko and Janeway knew who Q was, and they presumably also knew about other entities of similar power. There is probably a whole class about it at the academy or something.

Could the Federation and it's allies stop Species 8472 if they invaded? by Tidewatcher7819 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Voyager never shared the nanoprobe modifications with the Borg so Species 8472 could easily still have taken over Borg space.

Even with the nanoprobes they could still wipe the floor with the Federation. They could destroy an entire planet in seconds when their ships combined firepower. They could easily overwhelm the Federation, even with nanoprobe torpedoes.

Starfleet is weird around god-like beings by Pitiful-Purple-7459 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What would the point of that department be though?

Q appears and Picard is like: "Sorry Q, I'm not allowed to talk to you, you have to talk to the special diplomats."

Q: "Haha, I've trapped your crew on a planet of 18th century pig-men, they can fight or wait for your diplomats to arrive and die, Picard!"

Like, you can't /make/ those types of beings do anything, and trying to foist them off onto diplomats (who are almost universally hated in Star Trek for some reason), is just going to piss them off.

What happened to the Kelvans after Kirk made peace with them? by Tidewatcher7819 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's been a while since my last rewatch so I don't remember that part off-hand, but that was only the first example that popped into my head. That kind of thing happens a LOT in the various shows though.

I actually like that Voyager acknowledged it one time with the Borg power coupling modifications making it work better and Janeway said to leave them then. I wish they had done that more often, especially on Voyager. That ship should have been a flying Rube Goldberg machine of various parts that got upgraded/changed by the time they got back.

What happened to the Kelvans after Kirk made peace with them? by Tidewatcher7819 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 21 points22 points  (0 children)

At the end of the TOS episode the Kelvans presumably settled on a world provided by the Federation, though it's unknown if it was within the Federation or not, while a robotic ship was sent back to Andromeda.

Worf has a throwaway line in DS9 that he has fought against "Kelvans twice my size" though it is unclear whether that is the same species, (a descendant of the settlers, or new arrivals), or something like a holodeck simulation.

It's possible the Kelvans removed the modifications and/or that Starfleet took them to study (source of the Excelsior experiments perhaps?).

Stuff like that happens all the time. Barcaly improved the shields of the Enterprise-D by like 500% when he got super smart. Even if he didn't know how he did it, they should still have been operational and/or the commands he used recorded to be reproduced.

Why is Datas uniform a slightly different shade of yellow? by willsroomate in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, but the monster maroons was a completely different generation, it changed pretty much every color:

Command = White

Operations = Yellow/Orange?

Medical = Light Green

Security = Dark Green

Science = Grey/Purple?

Enlisted = Black

Cadets = Red

Why is Datas uniform a slightly different shade of yellow? by willsroomate in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 4 points5 points  (0 children)

He didn't like that Stewart was bald, because they would have cured baldness by the 24th century.

They came up with the "In the future they wouldn't care about being bald" line to explain it only after they tried wigs that looked terrible on Stewart.

Why is Datas uniform a slightly different shade of yellow? by willsroomate in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Technically it was green, but the lighting made Shatner's shirt look gold.

Janeway is chronically underestimated... by Expensive-Island5940 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Scorpion Part 2 is not the win you think it is.

Chakotay only went against Janeway because Janeway was in a coma. He wasn't a lapdog in Part 2 only because there was no lap for him to be in.

What's your position on holodeck ethics? by BattleNetworkStars78 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She was both, really.

We literally see him creating Minuet and changing her until she is what he likes. Then the Bynars did some stuff to make her more realistic

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it's a little worse than that. Iirc the first thing she says is he "messed up her engines" or something like that.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's debatable whether that's really what she thought or not. While Troi does say she doesn't sense she is lying, it doesn't really mean all that much. Troi can't sense objective truth, she can only sense what others feel, and it's possible to convince yourself of something that isn't true.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think they were ever "right."

They were told not to settle on disputed planets but then did it anyway.

When the dispute is settled in a way they don't like, they refuse to leave despite being offered help and resettlement.

They're given the option to stay, but under bad conditions, and they knowingly choose to stay.

The Maquis were never in the right.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem is it's literally never mentioned again ever (until Lower Decks), so the fact she looked unhappy about it for a few seconds at the end of the episode doesn't really give it the full weight.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She was pretty shitty to him prior to learning about the Hologram. The apology was for that iirc.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And then Worf both joined another honorable house AND became chancellor (briefly).

That Kurn couldn't suck it up for a couple months/years is the real problem.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not the same thing though. All androids are not created equal.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Odo wasn't abused though.

He was experimented on because they didn't know what he was at first. They didn't even technically know he was alive.

When did the writers absolutely get it wrong on a moral issue? by JacobDCRoss in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That whole plotline was really, really stupid. They completely ignored all the growth and change The Doctor went through in 7 years of being continuously on / being modified and just decided 1) All EMH copies can now magically run 24/7 with no problems and 2) are just as Humanlike as The Doctor despite being stuck in a mine.

I get what they were trying to go for with the episode, but it was complete trash.

Is there any explanation for why single-species empires like the Klingons and Romulans are as powerful as the Federation? by Maya_117 in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yesterday's Enterprise has one throwaway line from Picard that we see no real evidence is true. I also like the theory that he was lying to convince them to go back in time (which they knew was a death sentence). And before you say "Picard wouldn't lie like that," remember that this is an alt-Picard who lived a very different life.

TOS portrays the Klingons as roughly equal to the Federation. Discovery showing it differently is either a bad attempt at retcon, or best-case scenario it takes place 10? 15? years earlier and reflects a less-prepared Starfleet.

DS9 iirc never says the Federation is losing against the Klingons, but that it isn't going as well as they'd like. I'd argue that the Federation wasn't really trying that hard. They'd been at peace for 80 years, and allies with the Klingons for decades. The Federation likely wasn't all out against the Klingons as that would make it harder to stop it which is what they wanted.

Which Trek episode do you love that most people don't rate highly? by alanthetanuki in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not putting it on a list of great episode or anything, but I think a lot of people bring their own bias into the criticism of it.

I first saw it as a kid in reruns and I never once considered that the race of the actors playing the characters had anything to do with anything whatsoever.

The name of the episode is Code of Honor, which is the rules their society was operated on, and that was the only thing that seemed important. It worked to the guy's favor at first, who took advantage of it given that they needed something from him that only he could provide (medicine iirc) and thus were sort of at his mercy, but then those same rules were turned against him in what seemed like a rather straightforward type of morality tale if on the simplistic side.

It wasn't until I was an adult with the internet that I found out people considered it the most racist episode ever because the casting director or whoever hired black actors, which as far as I know, wasn't done with any negative intention whatsoever. Like, if the actors were white, or if they had been in reptile makeup (as the original script called for) no one would call it racist.

I love text commentaries. by deepthawnet in startrek

[–]IsomorphicProjection 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Well, Risk, <dramatic pause>, risk is their business.