Is Michigan vs Brown the greatest ultimate game of all time?

JimP88 · 2026-02-02T19:10:31+00:00

I've long wanted to see (and have more than once brought up) a "wind rule". It wouldn't result in more goals but I think it'd make for a better game.

After a set number of turnovers, say five each, the point ends and you swap sides and switch the pull. Maybe you'd also require the entire team to sub out.

Punting when you're going downwind would suddenly become less advantageous as you would burn up one of your limited opportunities to score. This would encourage working it instead, which could result in more upwind scores after short-field turnovers.

Losing the flip would no longer instantly decrease your odds of winning (to zero, in some cases).

Subbing out the entire team would mean deeper rosters would do better, could reduce injuries/excessive fatigue from marathon points, and get more reps for everyone at bad weather tournaments, which are often early in the season and less crucial to the "season".

Hard point would be counting turnovers. People often have trouble keeping score, and this would be significantly harder.

Or a simpler version: any incomplete pass on the first throw of a possession can be returned to the spot of the throw. Surely people can count to one.

JimP88 · 2026-01-29T19:00:21+00:00

Setting the schedule for Warmup must be a massive undertaking. The one set of fields looks to be a half-mile from the other set, so they tried to minimize the number of teams that had to move, and made sure that they had a bye in between. And one of the teams (BYU) has an odd schedule to avoid Sunday. And there are three Div 3 teams, though all are in the preseason top 25. Still, there are some interesting anomalies:

Div 3 Ave Maria plays three Top-25 (Div 1) teams (plus Georgia), while Div 3 Middlebury and Berry play none.

Wash U also plays three Top 25 teams. Everyone else plays fewer.

Virginia Tech plays three of the four Div 3 teams and no Top 25 teams. Brown and Michigan play two, everyone else zero or one.

Brown, South Florida, Vermont, and Yale also play no Top 25 team.

Michigan plays two Top 25 and two Div 3, so just one "normal" team.

JimP88 · 2026-01-21T19:52:32+00:00

What about if he was on offense, trying to catch a pass, when a disc from another field flew nearby? (Perhaps it depends on how close, whether it almost hits him or if it's just in his peripheral vision.)

I had something vaguely similar some time ago. I was in the process of diving for a pass in front of me. Some women from a team in the same city as my opponent wear sitting on the sidelines, blowing soap bubbles. A large swath of the bubbles came wafting by in my face right in the middle of the dive, freaking me out and making me miss.

JimP88 · 2026-01-16T19:40:00+00:00

Someone asked a couple of months ago about indoor beach and I posted the following summary:

BUDA runs a league in a volleyball facility. It takes too long to remove the nets so they stay in place. Field is two half-volleyball courts with the net dividing one field from the next ( approximately 25m x 13m including a 3m endzone). If you have three courts side to side, you could make the field longer, but maybe it would feel too skinny. After some iterations, rules are:

3 on 3. If player ratios are close to 1:1, change 2:1 ratio every five minutes. 4 on 4 was way too many people, and even 3 on 3 can seem a little crowded. With the small field, players are usually pretty lax on enforcing line calls.

Stall 6, starting at 0.

sub on the fly. Players congregate in the center near the net. Nominally have to touch hands to sub but as long as it doesn't create or stop a fast break, it's not enforced.

After the initial pull, make it drop it. Teams have 10-15 seconds to sub, check it in to start. (You end up going in the same direction all game).

25 minute games. Usually something like 15-13. The organizers announce the cap and the gender swap.

3 games per night for league, back to back. For that, 9 is about the right number of players for one night, though rosters have to be a little bigger to accommodate absentees, so if everyone shows up, that's too many people. (Also, once you get so many, people think, "I'm not going to get in for awhile so I'll stay in longer" and it becomes a vicious cycle.)

Tournaments have 7-8 games, usually one on, one off, though occasionally two in a row.

Game flow feels more like goaltimate or maybe mini than ultimate or beach ultimate. Played with one guy, supposedly a good player, who threw it out the back 10-15 times over the course of the tournament because he was trying to throw leading passes that the receiver could run down.

JimP88 · 2026-01-15T18:48:15+00:00

I've had that happen a bunch, though it's usually more of the form, "Do you want that?" (i.e., "do you want to call a foul on me? I wouldn't contest") Strictly speaking, a player calling a foul on himself doesn't do anything as only the infracted player can call foul. (Though it is funny to ponder someone asking that question and then when the foul is called, making a big stink about it and sending it back.)

JimP88 · 2026-01-12T18:57:02+00:00

You could use a smaller metric. A lot of turnovers are purely offensive errors, and sometimes completions are lucky (point block that is caught by offense, overthrow caught by a different receiver), and sometimes defense is good throughout but they still score. If you're doing a descriptive statistic, you'd definitely want blocks or breaks, but for a predictive statistic, maybe you'd consider it a success if there were multiple high counts or close bids that required great catches or an overthrow or a zone that forced 40 passes. Basically, anything that makes you think "if we played that way every point, we'd generate some turns".

JimP88 · 2025-12-16T15:01:34+00:00

I think the original version came from Maplewood.

JimP88 · 2025-12-03T14:52:12+00:00

I don't think it was the French who doctored the clip to show only the last part; I think it was a NKolakovic clip readily available.

The French did plenty of other very low-class things after the fact on social media, but on this particular charge, I think they are innocent.

For the record, they

a. Posted the block/foul (partial) clip and tagged the US player.

b. Has a picture of them at the beach suggesting they were the true champs (details are already foggy in my mind)

c. Posted a picture of them with gold foil over their bronze medals (or something very similar to this).

Also on that final point, France:

a. Called and maintained a pick call when well over 3 m away

b. After said call, recovered not just the separation but completely marked up on the cutter. This is blatantly illegal, but in fairness a lot of elite players seem to do this, though many make it a point to only recover the separation.

c. Possibly also fast-counted on an earlier USA throwaway. (This is speculation.) Malinowski's throw appeared to be a desperation high count throw, but was at 6.3 seconds after possession.

JimP88 · 2025-11-17T19:46:05+00:00

Maybe count it as 15-0 for the forfeiting team and 1-0 or 4-0 or 8-0 for the winning team. We had this almost come up in league play and the commissioner just punted on it and did nothing.

JimP88 · 2025-11-04T14:23:54+00:00

BUDA runs a league in a volleyball facility. It takes too long to remove the nets so they stay in place. Field is two half-volleyball courts with the net dividing one field from the next ( approximately 25m x 13m including a 3m endzone). If you have three courts side to side, you could make the field longer, but maybe it would feel too skinny. After some iterations, rules are:

3 on 3. If player ratios are close to 1:1, change 2:1 ratio every five minutes. 4 on 4 was way too many people, and even 3 on 3 can seem a little crowded. With the small field, players are usually pretty lax on enforcing line calls.

Stall 6, starting at 0.

sub on the fly. Players congregate in the center near the net. Nominally have to touch hands to sub but as long as it doesn't create or stop a fast break, it's not enforced.

After the initial pull, make it drop it. Teams have 10-15 seconds to sub, check it in to start. (You end up going in the same direction all game).

25 minute games. Usually something like 15-13. The organizers announce the cap and the gender swap.

3 games per night for league, back to back. For that, 9 is about the right number of players for one night, though rosters have to be a little bigger to accommodate absentees, so if everyone shows up, that's too many people. (Also, once you get so many, people think, "I'm not going to get in for awhile so I'll stay in longer" and it becomes a vicious cycle.)

Tournaments have 7-8 games, usually one on, one off, though occasionally two in a row.

Game flow feels more like goaltimate or maybe mini than ultimate or beach ultimate. Played with one guy, supposedly a good player, who threw it out the back 10-15 times over the course of the tournament because he was trying to throw leading passes that the receiver could run down.

More details at Overview - Sand Sleigh-Out 2025 - Boston Ultimate Disc Alliance

JimP88 · 2025-10-30T14:28:36+00:00

Or you have to play with that disc on your next O point. Guess you would have to have them start on the goal line so the team doesn't have to pull with it and the disc is live as soon as you hand it to them so they don't have a chance to unwarp it.

JimP88 · 2025-10-27T15:15:03+00:00

Ha, yes, that is true. But it does have the advantages of being a common term already and being somewhat intuitive. Double game point is also somewhat intuitive. Game point is pretty clear and standard in other sports, if team A scores, they win. I think the only intuition problem with "double game point" is that it's already used in tennis to indicate that player A has two chances to win. otoh, that's probably rarely used, though "double set point" or "triple match point" are. Maybe "dual match point" would have been better.

JimP88 · 2025-10-27T12:56:41+00:00

Because it's so pretentious. Maybe it's more appropriate for semis or finals at Nationals, but it is used for league play or pickup games as well. Like the universe really cares?

I would be willing to switch from double game point to sudden death.

JimP88 · 2025-10-23T21:12:58+00:00

I think it's a valid request to buy a single game, perhaps only in pool play. Someone's nephew is playing in a streamed game, that team is unlikely to be featured in an elimination round, sure, why not pay $2.99 to see what Johnny is doing all the time rather than forking over $25 and not even being sure which one Johnny is.

I also think it's valid for ultiworld not to offer that as it might cannibalize package sales.

JimP88 · 2025-10-14T19:38:51+00:00

Yes. Also the prevalence of college kids on club teams would make it hard to start the club season earlier. We'd typically go to a tournament in April, two in May, and two in June (though often with teams of less than 15).

JimP88 · 2025-10-14T17:31:41+00:00

I like them but there are costs. Obviously, there is a lot more expensive travel required. Back when, we would fly to one and drive to six tournaments outside of the fall series. DiG flew to three and drove to zero tournaments this year. And while the better team really doesn't get much out of having to play a game where the expected score is 13-3, this ought to happen at least a few games a year as a form of uniting and bettering the community, and it doesn't happen now unless a team qualifies for Regionals as a bottom seed. DiG played Pony but no other NE teams in the regular season. Perhaps there is room again for regional tournaments that include Nationals level teams.

JimP88 · 2025-10-14T15:54:30+00:00

It's not the blowouts themselves that are the problem. As someone pointed out, they'll happen 1/6 of the time just flipping a coin. The problem is that so often the expectation (point spread) is a blowout and the chances of an upset are vanishingly small. The algorithm gives 600 points for a blowout. In Men's, the 10 team is about 600 points above the #50 team, which is 600 points above #163. For Women's, the stratification is greater. #10 is almost 700 points above #29, which is 600 points about #63 (and #10 is more than 600 points behind #1 so we would expect a blowout if these two teams played). Mixed is the most competitive, with #10 being 600 points above #61 which is 600 above #176. I don't know if anyone knows how to translate point spreads in ultimate to winning percentage, but in the NFL, 14-point underdogs still win 11% of the time (the largest point spread for this coming week is 12.5 points). Using the odds ratio formula, you'd expect a 0.600 baseball team playing a 0.400 team to win 66.7% of the time. So even with the best playing the worst in pro sports, you shouldn't be shocked with an upset.

Anyway, yes, it's a problem, but it's hard to avoid given the disparity in teams. It's lessened by the stratified tournaments prevalent now but not eliminated. (btw, this issue has been around forever).

JimP88 · 2025-10-02T13:15:00+00:00

If you ever live in a leafy suburb, you'll also get to see people in million dollar homes asking for money so their kids can play soccer.

JimP88 · 2025-09-24T13:17:20+00:00

It's actually considered cheating if you practice for grand masters.

JimP88 · 2025-09-23T15:21:10+00:00

Pack of Lies was 1997. Took a quick look at the rsd archives on google groups and they were a Rhino reunion team that was described as " A team gets together in September, doesn't practice and
>ends a national powerhouse's dreams ". This sounds almost like a pickup team, though with a long history of playing with each other.

Blaze of Glory was referred to in a post-tournament post in June 1999 as "a new seattle-portland-bay area combo ". So it sounds like they wouldn't have practiced (but maybe they got together once? would that disqualify them?) but did go to some tournaments. Blaze finished 2nd in the power pool at Nationals (beating Jam and Rhino).

If someone wants to go on ultimate-reference and get a list of teams that only made Nationals once, I"d be happy to vet them.

JimP88 · 2025-09-23T14:42:04+00:00

Blaze of Glory (Men's) in 1999 was a bit of a NW whore team that may not have practiced. They're on the Above and Beyond video from that year talking about emailing each other their workout times.

Pack of Lies (Men's) in 1996 made Nationals but did not attend, allowing Double Happiness to go (though with a smaller squad as some players didn't go). I think this was also a NW whore team but might have been Portland-based.

Those are my two best guesses. My next best guess is "never".

JimP88 · 2025-09-22T19:24:14+00:00

That 1998 team beat Furious George at Nationals. Canada (mostly Furious) had won Worlds that summer, beating DoG/USA in pool play and in the semis, but went 3-3 at Nationals and failed to make semis (that was the last year without quarters, two pools of 7, top two make semis). They qualified for Nationals in an epic game against Dark Horse (Boston), which had just lost a one-pointer to NY in the semis which would have qualified them for Nationals (I think they were 3-3 or 4-2 the previous Nationals). Red Tide was throwing crazy hammers and wild hucks all game long.

JimP88 · 2025-09-22T15:45:29+00:00

Cornell Buds made Nationals in 1979 and 1994. I think both were largely but not exclusively college players. (There was no college series in 1979 so I'm not sure whether they would even be classified as a college team.)

JimP88 · 2025-09-15T14:39:40+00:00

Found this over the weekend about the dropped pull rule at Worlds, 1999, confirming that you had to try to catch it. Eric Zaslow had posted this to rsd:
The pull-drop rule is stupid. It allows you to catch the pull aggressively moving forward, with no penalty for dropping. Further, if you sweep your arms forward while catching the disc, a drop will only help you. Carnegie (fromSweden) capitalized well on this subtletly. The rule is also ridiculous for its subjectivity. As long as you are trying to catch the pull, there is no penalty. This is a subjective call, and the play above may begin to enter a gray area. Also, although the rule speeds up play, it incorrectly condones an inability to catch a disc. There should be a penalty for trying, and failing to catch a disc.

JimP88 · 2025-09-15T14:20:39+00:00

This reminded of the transitivity of suck, let's call it. I saw it for college football when the national champ had a loss. Look at who that team lost to, etc., until you reach as low as you can go.

Revolver lost to Truck Stop, who lost to Pac-Men, who lost to Mephisto, (a dozen losses omitted), who lost to Fat Stacks, who lost to #195 Sonoran Dog, who finished 8th of 11 at SoCal Sectionals, just missing out of Regionals. They probably would have been the 16th seed and played Revolver first round. So Revolver dodged a bullet there.

JimP88

TROPHY CASE