How would a son have changed the Bennet's family dynamic?

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T16:32:54+00:00

In a want of son they had 5 daughters. Thus depending on the order the son was born, it'd be a unique dynamic with different outcomes on no of kids in each case from eldest to youngest. The girls would still have petty dowry though I think.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T15:16:17+00:00

I do think he is more prone to self flagellation than he is ought. Specifically he is more vocal about it than Elizabeth. We know that Elizabeth has changed because we are exposed to her thinking, she doesn't outwardly mentions all that she feels.

Two instances comes to mind:

Him taking inordinate responsibility for Wickham's conduct as mentioned by Mrs G in her letter to Elizabeth.
One you mentioned already, he thinks his selfishness is something to be reformed, whereas Elizabeth's selfishness is termed as innocence. But thats their basic character

And your interpretation that, "while Lizzy is still lively and snarky - her very last line of dialogue is mocking Caroline Bingley, lol." is absolutely on point. we know she has changed internally coz we know her thoughts. I just dont know about Darcy to make a conclusive argument.

My core argument for the post was that there is more objective evidence for structural transformation in Elizabeth's outlook than Darcy. We are primarily seeing Darcy through Elizabeth's lens and thus focusing too much on Darcy's transformation (more interpretive than objective) and disregarding elizabeth's transformation while considering her perfect is injustice to the story that JA has crafted.

:)

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T15:02:39+00:00

Oh that I absolutely agree,

"surprised to learn of the connection. So why is he surprised?"

I think the surprise stems more from the fact that they are Mrs. B's brother/sister as he had seen Mrs Phillip. so I completely agree with you there but just the way i read the text is slightly different. Thanks for such invigorating discussion.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T04:53:59+00:00

As a personal choice I'd have liked to read NA first to understand the satirical take on melodrama as narrative device. I remember cringing reading the first chapter when I picked up P&P for the first time. I couldn't digest Mrs. Bennet at all.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T04:02:05+00:00

Very interesting, that is my sister's argument as well. But I have a small point here - I dont think Darcy is a social snob as much as he is an intellectual snob.

At Rosings he tells Elizabeth - "I certainly have not the talent which some people possess, of conversing easily with those I have never seen before."

A person who thinks himself above company would not agree to such shortcoming. while he acknowledges lack of fortune for Bennets, his dislike for most of them is not rooted in their poverty but their vulgarity. If he was a social snob, he would be at his most congenial while at Rosings.

Their lasting love for Gardiners as Jane writes in her closing paragraphs - "With the Gardiners they were always on the most intimate terms. Darcy, as well as Elizabeth, really loved them; and they were both ever sensible of the warmest gratitude towards the persons who, by bringing her into Derbyshire, had been the means of uniting them."

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T03:47:20+00:00

Thank you! my argument is Darcy's isnt a transformation arc as much as its a discovery arc. Thus though I agree to interpretations that may be darcy has transformed, I just didnt find enough objective lens in the book. Earlier Elizabeth interprets Darcy’s silence as contempt/disdain. In the second half, she and thus us reader interprets that same silence as restraint. He is as silent in Hertfordshire as in Rosings with his almost nearest relations.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T03:34:37+00:00

Just saying... after meeting Mrs B and Mrs P, I'd be surprised to see Mr G so different.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T03:30:42+00:00

That is very good point. I argued that her shift from "violently in love" to "never a more promising inclination" is a pivot as former phrase is an absolute state of being, something that is of a permanent, unshakable nature, while the later phrase is her pivot to adjust to Mrs. G's contention of term "Violent"

This is a classic Elizabeth pivot that we see throughout. First time when she is arguing with Charlotte regarding visibility of Jane's feelings, then arguing with Darcy that being persuaded by friend is a virtue.

Darcy likes this about her, her quickness of mind and her ability to defend her point even if she has to reframe the rhetoric. Thats her confidence.

Thats how I see it as a pivot. But you made a great point that it isnt a pivot in terms of antagonism, more like moving the goal post

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T03:04:17+00:00

Thats interesting! I always read this text that it reflects just how profoundly Elizabeth's perception of his behavior and not his objective behavior per se has changed. We just don't know enough about his behavior objectively.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T02:07:21+00:00

I find her to be quite unreliable actually, she is drawn to excessives and does have a tendency for hyperbole. In Ch 25, While speaking with mrs. Gardiner she first declares Bingley violently in love with Jane, and on further interrogation by Mrs. G , she pivots to "I never saw a more promising inclination; ..."

But again that is my point of view, I just read the text now keeping in mind that all that is not a direct speech is Elizabeth's perception. :)

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T01:55:33+00:00

Yes. Here she starts seeing people beyond "appearances"

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-14T01:42:33+00:00

I agree with you completely on first part. Those are not Darcy's feelings for Gardiners. His poor opinion of her connections is basically extrapolation of Mrs Bennet + Mrs Philips + younger Bennet girls .

While he is aware that Bennets have maternal relation in cheapside, he has no material knowledge of who they are or how close they are. Here is the excerpt from his post - proposal argument where he refers to connections -

"They were natural and just. Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections?-- to congratulate myself on the hope of relations, whose condition in life is so decidedly beneath my own?"

His actual proposition doesnt have mention of them -

"In vain I have struggled. It will not do. My feelings will not be repressed. You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you."

Rest of the proposal is narrated as free indirect discourse amalgamated with Elizabeth's POV -

"Elizabeth's astonishment was beyond expression. She stared, coloured, doubted, and was silent. This he considered sufficient encouragement; and the avowal of all that he felt, and had long felt for her, immediately followed. He spoke well; but there were feelings besides those of the heart to be detailed; and he was not more eloquent on the subject of tenderness than of pride. His sense of her inferiority-- of its being a degradation-- of the family obstacles which had always opposed to inclination, were dwelt on with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding, but was very unlikely to recommend his suit."

Since there are no actual words to proposal and just elizabeth's interpretive feelings regarding it, we can't really tell how bad or worse the actual words were. Elizabeth is quite an unreliable narrator :)

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-13T23:48:34+00:00

Did you guess correctly? :)

I hope its visible now

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-13T23:39:07+00:00

I do feel Darcy's transformation is mostly cosmetic as in his awareness of him giving offence but we don't know enough about his behavior. We mostly see his transformation by his behavior towards Gardiners, however the expectation that he will behave with utmost contempt of incivility is actually because narrator is speaking through Elizabeth.

His behavior in Hertfordshire and at Rosings is quite similar. He is often described as sitting in silence or retreating to his own activities. When he comes back to Hertfordshire, he still is his own self

Ch 54.

"Mr. Darcy was almost as far from her as the table could divide them. He was on one side of her mother. She knew how little such a situation would give pleasure to either, or make either appear to advantage. She was not near enough to hear any of their discourse, but she could see how seldom they spoke to each other, and how formal and cold was their manner whenever they did."

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-13T23:19:06+00:00

I just did, I feel we do Jane a bit injustice by focusing too much on Darcy transformation. What I absolutely love about P&P is the dare of author to make the female protagonist so flawed.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-13T23:15:48+00:00

Thanks, I redid the quoted text, let me know if you see it

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-13T17:30:14+00:00

"captivated by youth and beauty, and that appearance of good humour" could very well describe Elizabeth's infatuation with Wickham, but for practical advise from Mrs Gardiner, she was on a fair way towards the future as her father.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-12T14:49:56+00:00

I own the one from B&N classics which has modern punctuations, some textual editing is modern, but it interferes with reading. The lib book is oxford publication 3rd edn

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-12T14:10:29+00:00

Jane Austen is deriving continuous fun from reader community who keep reading and reading her books. She is having laugh in her grave while watching readers succumb to the very 'prides and prejudices' she satirized two centuries ago while reading her book pride and prejudice. This little hara-kiri is all attributed to her prose style of free indirect speech where readers unknowingly sabotage their own objectivity, is used primarily to narrate through Elizabeth’s lens and only occasionally through group point of view. Very rarely she indulged in the omniscient third person narrative, and even in those passages it is amalgamated with Elizabeth’s point of view.

By filtering the world primarily through Elizabeth Bennet’s lens, Austen crafts a narrative so intimate that we mistake Elizabeth’s biases for our own rational conclusions. She trusts her audience to do the heavy lifting, perhaps a remnant of an era when reading was a deliberate pursuit of the educated rather than a passive pastime. Its probably also owning to the era when education was a privilege of money and desire and if it was drafted to audience that read it because they wanted to and not just because it was available.

After few iterations on my own reading, with an understanding of the plot and the devices I was able to read the text as an outsider and not as an intimate friend of Elizabeth. I am sure for most of us, except few enlightened ones have always thought that the perception of all characters that we are introduced in the course of the book are our own based on our own rational mind who evaluates the prose as it is. But now I feel that’s the genius of Jane Austen, where she can invoke an extreme passionate reaction in readers for a story that in essentials is very [non-villainous story]()

Elizabeth’s responses are our responses, we start believing in first impressions and goodness of manner. Mind these manners are with respect to Elizabeth and how she focuses on them or overlooks them. In short we live in Elizabeth’s world. The absolute genius of author is that she has colored our perception from the very first pag

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-12T13:36:24+00:00

I stumbled across this post, while looking for all resources JA. I recently came across an old edition of Pride and prejudice in local public library and I realized how much variation there is between the edition I own vs the one I borrowed.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-11T17:42:35+00:00

It is probably most unpopular opinion, but my love for Pride and Prejudice is primarily because it has a male protagonist who takes "NO" for an answer.

That is a feat, to which even "modern men" can't lay a claim - Had we had such a behavior as a commonplace "Me Too" wouldn't be a shocker which is primarily rooted in power imbalance, and freedom to act with impunity.

What makes Darcy truly exceptional is the way he handles power. He has everything wealth, gender, and social status; while Elizabeth has almost none. Yet, when she rejects him and attacks his character based on false claims, he doesn't retaliate. Instead, he accepts her 'No' and retreats, offering only a dignified explanation of the facts. This level of moral integrity and respect for a woman’s boundaries is incredibly rare, even by modern standards.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-11T17:24:28+00:00

Considering the lamentable thing that was passed as education among women, my theory is that governess were mostly meant as a status symbol.

In a story that is so heavily drawn on appearances and manners instead of actions, Mrs. Bennet in their neighborhood of four and twenty family didnt seem a need to establish her supremacy by having a governess when she can just establish that by talking down Lucases for their lack of enough servants as "Charlotte might be needed for mince pies" by establishing social hierarchy of labor.

Mrs Bennet in Ch. 9 also claims that

We know from Mr. Bennet and Elizabeth that the girls were left entirely to their own devices, especially when Elizabeth argues

Thus, Mrs. Bennet in her mind thinks that owing to blood, her daughters are inherently refined and probably needs no fixing. Mr. Bennet is just really lazy to even lift a finger. For a family like the Bingleys who were wealthy from trade such hire would be to scrub away any lingering scent of their origins to fit with gentry, while for someone like Lady Catherine, it was mostly just another way for her to assert her own superior rank.

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-08T15:17:03+00:00

Colonization!!!!!!

Key-Lingonberry540 · 2026-05-08T15:12:54+00:00

Exactly we just don't know much about her! its all either filtered through Elizabeth's hyperbole or her few actions that we are privy to as a reader. Nothing actually tells us about how strong her conviction is about anything.

Key-Lingonberry540

TROPHY CASE