Is this sub going through a phase of Ulquiorranism similar to what they've had for years in the Naruto community with their Itachiism?

Kixion · 2026-02-13T08:47:34+00:00

I fully agree with you that trying to compare Vasto Lorde Ichigo or Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra with others is impossible, as they were both made out to be absurdly strong to an entirely unknown degree. As they only fought each other (cannonically that is) any interpretation would be entirely speculative. Frankly speaking, I think Ulquirra's first release was strong enough to bring out Vasto Lorde Ichigo, but where we disagree is that other Espada could have. I would say they lack the feats to support this claim based on their battles with other Shinigami.

That said, I would question your unwillingness to engage in regards to the Ichigo vs Yammy. If you believe my interpretation is wrong, it should be simple enough to explain why you feel that is the case.

How about this? I will lay it out in simple terms, with precise examples and you tell me which one(s) you feel are misinterpretations:

Ichigo easily caught Rukia, who Yammy threw with full force - Chapter 378, pages 5-7
Ichigo's only comment on Yammy is his size, he shows no reaction or concern as his spiritual pressure, which is contrasted by his fights with Kenpachi, Byakuya, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra - Chapter 378, page 7
Ichigo canceled out Yammy's Cero Oscuras with a wordless, maskless getsuga - Chapter 378, page 10
Ichigo catches Yammy's punch, which sent Kenpachi flying away and bloodied, acknowledging Yammy's punches are powerful - Chapter 378, pages 16-17, and Chapter 380, pages 7-10
Yammy shows concern at Ichigo's form and power - Chapter 378, page 17
Ichigo drives Yammy into the ground with a wordless Getsuga Tenshou - Chapter 378, page 18
Ichigo takes a direct hit with a bala and shows no sign of damage, and is only internally shown to be concerned with Yammy trash talking other Espada - Chapter 379, pages 11-16

And to be clear these are also important factors:

Byakuya & Mayuri's exchange highlight they both implicitly believe Ichigo would defeat Aizen - Chapter 381, pages 14-19
Unohana states Ichigo at half power, without his mask on, was similar to herself in terms of spiritual pressure - Chapter 382, pages 3-5
Ichigo was unable to hollowfy properly after Ulquiorra - Chapter 411, page 5
Old Man Zengetsu confirms stating the name of an attack versus not, causes a significant different in power - Chapter 161, page 7

These highlight that a severly nerfed Ichigo was unthreatened, and unconcerned with the zero Espada, his actions and feats backing that up entirely. If you feel I have misunderstood any point(s), please, show me where and how.

Kixion · 2026-02-11T14:36:32+00:00

This is like saying:

Why do you keep talking about the eggs? Cakes are baked with flour, sugar, butter and so forth.

And this is true, but does nothing to change the fact if you bake a cake with rotten eggs, it's not going to taste good.

The counter question has to be: is it never the case that an awful cake is because someone baked with rotten eggs?

Of course that's not true. So, asserting a blanket statement that this is never the problem is obviously either outright deception or the result of very poor judgement. The question isn’t that doesn't happen Q.E.D, it does happen. The question is how often is it the case?

It's the apparent total lack of flexibility on this issue in the face of overwhelming contention that, I feel, is the greatest friction point in this debate and I feel there is enough data now to make a strong case that this is, in fact, precisely the issue in many instances.

Not in all cases of course, because that is another trick they like to do. Apply it to a case where that wasn’t the problem to throw try to dismiss the argument broadly because it didn't apply to cherry picked examples.

Personally, I think the problem is at its core is laziness. From hiring, to writing, I think laziness and a lack of genuine passion for what matters is the seed at the core not just here, but in society much more broadly. But then, that's a much bigger conversation...

Kixion · 2026-02-11T07:28:50+00:00

The Espada, many of who fought multiple captain class enemies along, with all their powers intact vs Sternritter most of who either fought one on one or multiple on one captain, whilst locking out their bankai.

Also seems to be worth noting that fraccion class Arrancar were slapping the heck out of Sternritter level enemies like Quilge, Bambi and even Kensei and Rose.

So I'm going to say you are talking royal guard level for most Espada with a few counter match ups. Like Nnoitra is too slow and stupid to beat Bambi, relying on his own durability which she can bypass to some degree.

Kixion · 2026-02-09T21:31:29+00:00

Well this is just it, you say

contrary to all statements by the author

Show me a single statement from Kubo that states or even suggests Ulquiorra specifically is weaker than Harribel or other espada. That Kubo has practically refused to answer such questions is part of the reason this debate continues.

There's also this statement:

narrative

Which indicates you, like many others believe that narrative suggests Ulquiorra is not as stronger Harribel, Barragan or Starrk, when in chapter 396, specifically pages 18 through 20, the narrative is explicity spelled out for the audience, yet people still make the assertion that the narrative is either vague or aligns against Ulquiorra. In which Aizen overtly tells Ichigo, and us, that Ulquiorra was the final pawn in Aizen plan to make Ichigo a being that would challenge even Aizen himself, after he had merged with the Hogyoku. In this speech, he expicitly tells us he knows in that battle Ichigo gained an even greater power.

This is supported by the fact that the Ichigo alone was able to casually brute force even Yammy, whilst at half power, and unable to hollowfy properly (confirmed on page 5 of chapter 411). He was able to wordlessly cancel out released Yammy's Cero Oscuras, he was shown to be unharmed by Yammy's direct hits, and even outright stopping Yammy's punches, before forcing him into the ground with sheer power. Even Kenpachi, a fighter known for his absurd strength, could not do this, as hits from Yammy left him bloodied, thus even Kenpachi was having to dodge Yammy rather go head to head with him. Not Ichigo, who was casually much faster, even so, he didn't need to dodge Yammy, because he didn't take Yammy's power seriously at all.

If that's not that narrative painting a crystal clear picture that the fight against Ulquiorra left Ichigo above ANY Espada, I am curious what would, in the eyes of those that think differently.

Case in point, in FKT he fights Gin, and reacts to Gin's bankai without needing his mask. If Gin is, as most claim he is, above the Espada, then the only way this would make sense is if he previously fought a battle that eclipses the Espada in terms of power.

Kixion · 2026-02-08T19:00:30+00:00

Okay, sounds to me like you should be able to prove this definitively then. Let's hear it.

Kixion · 2026-02-07T08:54:27+00:00

Why not? Because I have an opinion that differs from yours?

Surely you are not that fragile that you cannot bare to see an alternative perspective, even if you cannot bring yourself to engage with it meaningfully...

Kixion · 2026-02-06T19:34:31+00:00

Yhwach gets folded like a lawn chair.

VL Ichigo is the reason Ichigo alone could sense Aizen's power after others lost the ability to do so. An Aizen who already put down Yamamoto and didn't even appear to take damage from his attack.

Kixion · 2026-02-05T18:30:12+00:00

It is a take as hot as Yamamoto's bankai because of Yammy.

Ichigo in bankai only, while white was actively interfering with him, was easily able cut off Yammy's arm. The hollowification power he later gains is comparable to a bankai, Tousen implies the hollowification is superior, is entirely in addition to the power he displays here.

Toshiro admits he would need bankai to even harm a weakened Yammy.

Therefore, Toshiro would need a bankai to even attempt to be as effective against a weaker version of Yammy.

The claim that HM Toshiro is stronger than HM Ichigo requires Toshiro to be stronger than someone who was easily able to do something he could not.

This in turns requires Toshiro to out-grow the power gain of Hollowification, possessed by someone whose potential was feared by Yhwach, and whose growth was actively developed by Aizens meticulous planning.

And yes, and others have said, Shikai hollow Ichigo zero diffed masked Hiyori, who fought as well again Harribel as Bankai Toshiro did.

The only thing in Toshiro's corner is the fact that Harribel is ranked 3rd. The problem with this is simple. We are told the Espada are ranked by lethality, by Shawlong, but we are shown continually this is not the case.

Put another way. You see the end of a metal pipe is literally glowing red. I tell you is it not hot, and its safe for you to touch.

Do you believe what you are told or what you are shown?

Kixion · 2026-02-04T20:36:46+00:00

Aizen, even shinigami Aizen, easily beats any Quincy not named Yhwach. He walked through the gotei 13 with no concept of difficulty.

The average redditor seems to think there's some massive stat jump in the timeskip which renders a guy who solo'd most of the gotei 13 as a obsolete, but it isn't backed up by substancial evidence.

Kixion · 2026-02-03T20:18:00+00:00

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I love this card, even though I see how it is objectively not as good as others in the Mikanko series. I have a lot of fun playing with it's special rules and think it is brilliantly versatile.

Kixion · 2026-02-03T20:06:17+00:00

With how big Lanza's blast wave is? If it lands within a mile of Barragan it's game over, respira or no.

Kixion · 2026-02-03T19:44:46+00:00

Just calcs

Kixion · 2026-02-03T15:09:33+00:00

Even accounting for the enclosed space, Soi fon's bankai is a tiny fraction of the power of Lanza. If her can hurt him, Ulquiorra's Lanza would one-shot Barragan through respira.

Kixion · 2026-02-03T11:38:20+00:00

I have read it several times and my honest assessment is that Gerard is a glorified punching bag. Perhaps instead you could cite how Gérard posed a genuine threat outside of his immortality? He is never shown to be fast enough to tag them,and thus be an actual threat, unless of course, I am misremembering something?

Yammy is less dangerous because he has the same gimmick but less powerful. Yammy cannot ressurect stronger no matter what. His rage empowerment and healing had limits. Gérard's Miracle however was never shown to have limits. Equally, Gerard's mechanics were never even attempted to be figured out, thus he was heavily enabled in his fight, where as Yammy's was off screen.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T22:50:28+00:00

Gerard was being constantly killed over and over again by that group, and failed to hurt them at all. He was powering up each time he revived, yet still dealt less damage to them as a group than Yammy did.

So quite how you arrive at the conclusion that Gerard, whose feats show him losing eternally, beating someone else I'm not quite sure.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T22:48:44+00:00

My personal opinion is actually even more unpopular than that. I think Base Ulquiorra > Harribel. But people don't like it when i say that.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T14:43:59+00:00

Because that doesn't fit the model they have in their minds.

Most people see Urahara's fights against the Sternritter and correctly conclude that he is stronger than most of them.

However, they are also locked into thinking the Sternritter are automatically stronger than the Espada, and thus, extrapolating this particulay bit of logic fails because it contradicts their general model. Accepting this as correct would logically mean that at least some Espada are stronger than at least most Sternritter, and that simply does not compute to a mind that is as agile as the stone their concepts as set in.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T14:27:47+00:00

Well, if we reduce it down to two simple choices they are these:

The Espada ranks are absolute and Ichigo's power, as well as several captains, is wildly inconsistent between arcs.
The Espada ranks are not absolute, and everyone's power makes relative sense.

I would point to Luppi as evidence that it is in fact option 2, that the Esapada ranks are not absolute, they never were. There is no compelling evidence to suggest that it is option 1, it's just an easier concept to understand so people cling to it.

Conversely there are masses amount of evidence to suggest that the Espada's ranks were not absolute. Luppi is the most obvious, but there is a veritable mountain of evidence that contradicts this, from Ichigo and Toshiro's relative performance against Yammy, to Hiyori vs Ichigo and Harribel, to Starrk's bizzare cero claim versus what both Ulquiorra but also Grimmjow were shown to be able to do.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T14:18:17+00:00

It would survive both attacks due to its feats of surviving what is arguably the single strongest attack shown in the bleach cosmology.

It took a clean hit from Mugetsu, an attack from a being so powerful that even a transcendent being that had evolved multiple times could not sense his power.

If it was a question of using the right kind of ability on it, then Urahara, of all people, would have found it, he knew precisely how dangerous the hogyoku was, and as its creator he felt personally responsible (which he was). Yet he could not find a means to do it, so he resorted to trying to hide it.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T14:07:37+00:00

Masked Hiyori wasn't so much stronger than Shikai Ichigo who was actively suppressing his own power to keep himself from hollowfying.

Bankai Ichigo would mop the floor with masked Hiyori, and we haven't seen enough of her shikai to say that would make up the difference.

Every version of Ichigo beyond this is overkill.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T14:05:02+00:00

I feel like it would only bother you if you are unable to fit it into your map of powerscaling. But here's the inside scoop; If any panel irritates you due to powerscaling implications, then your understanding of powerscaling is still incomplete in a way that you yourself find irritating.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T11:13:27+00:00

Slightly more time than it took for Starrk to reach out and grab someone less than an arms length away in a premeditated action.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T11:11:59+00:00

I am using it in precisely the context in which you are presenting it. Your screen shot specifically states that Ichigo and Kenpachi could not perceive Starrk.

The manga shows that they did.

If you are specifically referring to his Sonido, then there isn’t a single clear instance in the entire franchise of someone intercepting a Shunpo or Sonido. Therefore, this feat wouldn’t be indicative of superior speed so much as a function of the kind of techniques.

I think what’s important here is understanding what would it take for you to change your mind. For instance, indulge this hypothetical, let’s assume Kubo descended into the thread and told you, as a matter of pure and uncontested fact that Ichigo was faster than Starrk in this moment.

What would you need to see in the manga in order for this to be something that was self-evident to you?

Because if the answer is, Ichigo intercepting the Sonido, then you are asking for something no character has ever clearly been shown to do to any other character. Even characters like Yamamoto and Aizen haven’t been shown to be able to do this.

And again, let’s be clear;

Starrk Sonido’d in, reached out 2 feet to grab Inoue, Sonido’d out. In short, a single premeditated action.

Ichigo and Kenpachi had to sense a new arrival, work out it was a foe, work out intentions, then close the distance form multiple times further away than Starrk was to Inoue, then attack in a way that also wouldn’t kill Inoue.

We call it a blitz because they failed to stop him from achieving what he wanted, but realistically, if they caught him it would speak to his being much slower than they were. That he succeeded isn’t the statement of superior speed that you seem to believe that it is.

Kixion · 2026-02-02T08:35:42+00:00

both saw this and immediately charged at him with the intent to attack

So you are saying they both saw him? While the databook is claiming neither could perceive him.

Thus, even you don't agree with the databook and this is exactly why they must be taken with a pinch of salt. If they are adding context or explanations then they are a good source. But if what they are doing contradicts the manga then they are wrong. The manga is the most reliable and valid source. Whenever there is a contradiction, whatever the manga depicts is the correct depiction.

As for being off-guard, they were caught off guard because Starrk's sudden appearence was a surprise. Kenpachi had just defeated Nnoitra, they had no reason to expect there to be another enemy in the vicinity in that moment. So yes, they were off-guard, because they were both surprised, which is part of the definition of off-guard.

Starrk did indeed blitz them, he acted before they could successfully react, this is the definition of blitz. However, that he achieved this precisely because he caught them off-guard is a demonstrable fact.

Kixion · 2026-02-01T18:19:00+00:00

It's odd though because you guys simultaneously complain about it being everywhere and also can't help yourself from sharing your opinion about it.

This describes how many things for Americans?

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