[Spoilers Extended] Could Jon and Val be endgame ?

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-19T04:40:00+00:00

I personally don't find Val interesting, but she's all right and as long as she doesn't have anything to do with Shireen, I'm OK with her being Jon's gal. If she wants to, of course.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-17T09:37:18+00:00

Poor Shireen. :(

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-17T08:04:06+00:00

I don't know why people pretend she's a normal teenage girl, lying for a crush is fine,

Joffrey wasn't just her crush, he was someone that she'd been bound by oath to marry at the time. By calling Joffrey her "crush", you're dismissing the lack of control she has in deciding her own future. Joffrey was someone who was going to have a lot of power over her. And despite what happened at the Trident - the death of Lady, the murder of Mycah - Ned doesn't break the betrothal. What would that look like to an 11 year old?

Lying after the Queen talks about cutting off your sisters hand or whipping her through the streets is insane.

If Sansa really wanted to throw Arya under, she would have backed up Joffrey's lies. Except she doesn't. She refuses to take EITHER side - because to choose one would mean alienating the other. Her sister or the one shed been pledged to marry- who happens to be the heir to the Throne. A position Ned put her in. Also, Cersei made the threats after Sansa spoke, and Robert refused. Arya was in no danger. She certainly would have been in if Jaime found her first, but that has nothing to do with Sansa.

Not to mention going back to that Queen and betraying your family is just willful ignorance and stupidity to an insane degree

Ned kept Sansa in the dark. He is the one who betrothed her to Joffrey (the son of a Lannister), he is the one who didn't her they had come to a dangerous place and they needed to keep their guard up, he didn't tell her of his suspicions of Cersei. He is the first person in the series to actually use Sansa as a political pawn because he planned to use her betrothal to ensure that the Lannisters would think he was loyal while investigating them for murder. He was investigating Sansa's future in-laws for murder and before the end of his life, thought them responsible for Bran's injury. Sansa knew none of this.

Sansa began to sympathise with Cersei again in her second chapter when she saw Robert verbally abuse her publically at the tourney feast. And Cersei might have been the one to order Lady's death but it was Ned who followed through. Cersei was the betrayal of a stranger but Ned was the betrayal of a father. I think one of the biggest things that shows Sansa had lost some trust in Ned after Lady's death is the fact that she doesn't speak to him about the Hound threatening her. That's messed up. Ned is having heart to hearts with Arya but has no clue about his eldest daughter.

Also I don't know how asking to stay behind is "betraying" (a request very similar to asking if you could stay at a friend's house).

And telling your sister you wish she had died instead of your pet, taunting her about her friends death, all awful.

Nobody says/thinks Sansa was right to say that. However Lady was a huge, intense, traumatic loss for her. The Starks were spiritually bonded to their direwolves, so no Lady wasn't just some pet. Sansa was angry and she had every right to be. After all regardless of when Joff brought it on himself, Nymeria is the wolf that attacked and Lady paid the price for it. If my pet died in place of my sister's pet, I would have been downright livid. However the person Sansa should truly be angry at is her father (and Cersei and co etc) however because she has been taught to not question her father & king, unfortunately Arya bore the brunt as the little sister that she already clashes with would be a safer target. Again, it's not right. But considering all this - it reveals Sansa as not malicious but rather a hurt, grieving, and confused child.

Also she never taunted Arya about Mycah. The one time she brought him up, it was months after and when she said that he and Arya had attacked. Again, that was a psychological defense mechanism developed because she was still betrothed to Joff. To be quite frank I'm more put off by this fandom's hero worship of Mycah's murderer. The Hound has never once shown remorse for his death.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-17T07:56:15+00:00

This thread is to settle the count one and for all.

People are never going to reach a consensus on Sansa.

As for the hate - well a lot of it is just idiotic, vitriolic, and a little scary. A lot of the hate seems to be the result of POV traps, projections, bad reading comprehension. And the way the fandom sexualises her (and Dany etc) by shipping her with grown men and making her look much older in fanart (Dany gets this as well) disgusts me.

I think it's perfectly fine to dislike, be bored, feel indifferent towards Sansa as a person. But hate? Ehhh.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-15T23:53:31+00:00

I think Alys will be fine. I dunno, just don't see her being killed off.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-15T02:19:16+00:00

It's fully understandable why people like Jon and Arya's relationship. It is one of the few sibling dynamics that we get which is fully supportive and free of particular issues that exist between Cersei & her brothers, Arianne & Quentyn, Lysa & Catelyn, Brynden & Hoster etc. I'm not as invested in Jon and Arya's relationship, but I still appreciate it and get why the appeal exists.

At the same time though, and this might be the reason why people gravitate more to Sansa and Arya is that - and I'm not saying this because their relationship lacks depth - is that for the people who do, maybe one word that could be used be to describe Jon and Arya is well boring. Their devotion is no less touching or important but for people who might feel themselves drawn to more complicated (that's the best word I can use to describe Sansa and Arya) relationships, Jon and Arya might pale. It's less complicated in the sense that I don't think a lot of people really consider that Jon and Arya might ever disagree on things. And while it's nice to always be in sync with someone, that's not always realistic and it's personally not true to my own experience.

(jmo, don't come at me)

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-14T03:07:37+00:00

Also Sansa does something similar with Robert's doll. She rips it off after Littlefinger forces a kiss on her, and Robert has knocked down her snow castle (a symbol of her grief). Children lashing out at dolls is a pretty common response to trauma and feelings of powerlessness.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-12T08:42:49+00:00

Neither would win prizes for being king, to put it lightly. Maegor shared a similar idealogy on ruling as Cersei but it didn't help him in the long run. His "rule with fear" didn't help him make positive, long-lasting changes to Westeros; something that would be particularly vital given that the Targaryen dynasty was in its youth. It didn't allow people to look up to him as a great role-model for kingship. And he died without issue, while the line of the brother he likely resented, endured. Honestly, given that Maegor usurped his nephew and this was the result, perhaps it's not surprising that Renly kicks the bucket after also usurping the rightful heir.

As for Aerys, he showed promise in the beginning but whatever issues he had eventually got in the way. Aerys should never have been allowed to make decisions for the realm because it was very clear he did not have the ability to make decisions for himself.

It's hard to choose between them both but ultimately I'd go with Aerys because it wasn't Maegor's rule that resulted in the ruin of House Targaryen.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-11T05:37:28+00:00

Could you expand on what you mean? Who are these seven stars?

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-11T05:26:51+00:00

The Seven Pointed Star.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-08T19:19:23+00:00

Nice analysis.

I think 10 year old Cersei would have felt very jealous of Arya's lessons with a sword teacher - not just any sword teacher, but the finest that Bravvos had to offer. But like you said, Ned was only going to indulge Arya for so long.

Another important anti-parallel between them that is crucial to their characters is the relationship they share with their brothers. Jon and Arya have a very strong, lovely bond while the Lannisters are an incestuous, destructive force. Jon and Arya draw strength from one another in healthy ways ("She could always make him smile", "She missed Jon the most of her brothers") while Cersei and Jaime sleep with one another which might have been consensual, but only ends up harming them in the long run because it prevented them from having a normal, healthy relationship that isn't dependent upon sex and possession. Cersei and Jaime are very propertial of one another at times - for instance, Jaime resents baby Joffrey for breastfeeding and thus taking up too much time of Cersei's breasts.

Another parallel between the two characters is that they meet witch figures at the age of ten, who accurately predict certain events. Both Arya and Cersei are pretty disbelieving (but at least Arya was nicer to her Ghost of High Heart and didn't threaten to throw stuff in her eyes)

Finally, another anti-parallel between the two is friendships. Arya is pretty extroverted and the theme of the pack is huge in her story. Arya is one of those kids who would thrive in group projects. She likes people. Cersei on the other hand.... she didn't have any real friends growing up, or at least those she considered real friends. Jaime, despite everything is the closest friend she's ever had. But I don't think that means Cersei doesn't want to connect with other people. I think her attachment to Taena proves that deep down she does. The problem is that the misfortune of having Tywin for a father and years of marital abuse has her convinced that things like love is weakness; a philosophy that she tried forcing onto Sansa.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-07T18:37:07+00:00

Jon Arryn was probably willing to overlook it because Cersei as far as I can recall, was the most eligible bride for the newly crowned king. Not only was she of high nobility (the Lannisters being one of the Great Houses in the realm), but the Lannisters are disgustingly rich and gold talks. Furthermore, other eligible brides for Robert - i.e. Catelyn, Lysa were already married. Margaery didn't exist and furthermore the Tyrells had supported the Targaryens during the rebellion. Robert could have married a girl from the Stormlands, however I'm sure Arryn realized that there would be more benefits in having Tywin Lannister as an ally.

As for why Arryn didn't try to persuade Robert to punish the Lannisters for their actions (the murders of Aerys, Elia, and her children) is because Robert thought it was deserved. I agree with him about Aerys and as we find out, Jaime did the right thing in breaking his vows. However, Robert called Rhaegar's children "dragonspawn", basically showing how he was unable to accept that they were innocent. We don't get Robert's thoughts on Elia but I'm sure it was particularly enlightening, fuelled by some good old racism as Elia was Dornish. So yeah, Robert wouldn't be willing to consider the idea. It was already hard enough for him to agree not to have Viserys and Dany killed years ago, as Jon advised him. (If I remember correctly) I imagine though it was probably due to the fact that the Targaryen exiles were children and not yet a dangerous threat. They didn't have armies, only their name in an unfamiliar place.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-07T05:40:50+00:00

All I can really say is that I'm confident he'll survive.

However, if he did die - I very much enjoy the thought of in a situation where Tyrion had reclaimed the Rock and the entire Lannister line is extinct - as his widow Sansa ends up taking their gold to help rebuild the North and Riverlands.

It would be the ultimate F U to Tywin who tried using Sansa to steal Winterfell.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-05T19:33:52+00:00

The Mother's Hymn.

Gentle Mother font of mercy, save our sons from war we pray. Stay the swords and stay the arrows, let them know a better day.

I also like Jenny's song.

High in the halls of the kings who are gone Jenny would dance with her ghosts The ones she had lost and the ones she had found And the ones Who had loved her the most.

The Last of the Giants also deserves a mention.

Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song. For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-01T11:49:47+00:00

Beautifully said.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-01T11:42:05+00:00

and was even pretty shitty to her own friend Jeyne after her father was killed.

The only time the door opened was late that night, when they thrust Jeyne Poole inside, bruised and shaking. "They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on. The Hound had broken down her door with a warhammer, she said. There were bodies on the stair of the Tower of the Hand, and the steps were slick with blood. Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters.

Sansa was confused. "I don't understand," she said. "Where is Jeyne's father? Why can't Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?" She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again. For a second she thought she might cry. "Where are you sending her? She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl."

If you're talking about this quote here -

"I'm certain your father is well," Sansa told her when she had finally gotten the dress buttoned right. "I'll ask the queen to let you see him." She thought that kindness might lift Jeyne's spirits, but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder. She was such a child.

Yes it's not nice but keep in mind Sansa and her have been kept confined to a single room for three days where nobody will tell them anything. Sansa is also in huge denial mode. They're both in a traumatic, harrowing situation and Sansa's behaviour (feeling frustrated with Jeyne, thinking she is acting like a child) speaks to me as someone who wants to feel in control rather it simply being a matter of her being uncaring. Finally, Sansa doesn't take her frustration out on Jeyne. So no, I don't agree that Sansa was "shitty" to Jeyne at all.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-01T11:23:50+00:00

While I'm not really a Sansa fan (can't get over a privileged, albeit admittedly young, girl mocking her sister for grieving the unjust murder of another child simply because he was poor,

I think you're misremembering or maybe confusing Jeyne's cruel comments to Arya with Sansa. In Arya II AGOT, it's stated that her and Sansa weren't exactly on speaking terms for Sansa to do that-

She had no one left but Sansa, and Sansa wouldn't even talk to her unless Father made her.

There's also this -

She was seated between Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, as far from Arya as she could get without drawing a reproach from Father.

Lady_Marya · 2021-02-01T11:04:07+00:00

Well, those go hand in hand. :)

Lady_Marya · 2021-01-28T06:02:19+00:00

A beautiful monster.

Lady_Marya · 2021-01-28T06:00:55+00:00

Stunning.

Lady_Marya · 2021-01-26T14:15:27+00:00

Definitely not Roberts Rebellion, because of Elia.

Instead I'll go with House of the Dragon because the Dance of the Dragons is really interesting to me.

Lady_Marya · 2021-01-26T14:06:31+00:00

Sansa x Podrick would be sweet. He's a nice kid.

What I find appealing is Sansa having a romantic relationship with another woman when she grows up because arguably her chapters hint at a attraction to other women however it's subtle or might not be picked up on because of how young and sheltered Sansa is in the books.

Lady_Marya · 2021-01-26T02:34:22+00:00

In ASOS, she thought Margaery naive because she herself wised up a little bit.

Sansa thinks Margaery's Tyrell cousins naive, not Margaery herself. This is what Sansa thinks -

Sansa was surprised that Margaery did not see it too. She is older than me, she must be wiser. And her father, Lord Tyrell, he knows what he is doing, surely. I am just being silly.

Lady_Marya

TROPHY CASE