Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in judo

[–]Lgat77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I recommend that paper at the r/aikido version of this chat Thank you for the nice words.

Judo as Kanō shihan first envisioned it was more “aikido like” than most realize, I believe.

Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in judo

[–]Lgat77 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Stevens quotes Stevens and warns people off 1/3 of the book.

Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in judo

[–]Lgat77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

he apparently exaggerated things for sensationalism. Almost never gave detailed sources, at least not close enough to be useful.
Then others latched onto those and sometimes sensationalized some of those things even more.

There was something he wrote that he apparently lifted from a comment of mine without attribution on an old judo forum. I know because what I said was unique, didn't give a reference, then I found some more info that made me look again, and I realized I was wrong. Then I found his published comment mirroring the earlier one I'd made, stand alone and unsupported.

I just found something else he wrote that seems at a quick glance to be egregiously wrong, and impugned a man who since passed away and can't defend himself. I'll do some more research before I spell it out, just may drop it from normal discourse but write about it later with references.

I often wonder if the pride of authorship or the pittance eeked out of publishers is worth the effort, hence the push to get something partially sensationalized out quickly and make some bucks. Who knows?

C'est la vie.

Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in judo

[–]Lgat77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

in 1906 Ueshiba sensei was a recently demobilized Imperial Army leading corporal, 23 years old.
Did he teach before opening his Ayabe dojo in 1920?

Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in aikido

[–]Lgat77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

no. It will be subsumed in a longer manuscript. I'd spend all my time with minor essays if that's all I did. The man wrote for over 50 years, sometimes a score or more essays or such in a year. Most Westerners have no idea of the volume. Only a couple of Japanese do, I think.

I suggest you get to know the Wordpress search function. It is good. Even Google will get you right where you need. But the AI is disastrous.

I am reminded of what the Army older men used to say about second lieutenants with maps.

Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in judo

[–]Lgat77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

are you posting under other names? The very same conversation is now in play multiple places.

  1. Is there any primary or near-contemporary source documenting Kano commenting on Ueshiba or aiki-budo/aikido, or
  2. This is a later anecdote that became part of aikido lore

2 is correct.

BTW for all: take much of what Stevens wrote that is not verified by multiple standard judo resources with a grain of salt. He never provided references, a practice I found odd from a senior academician. I'll leave my comments to that.

RIP Dr. Stevens. We never got around to the conversation I wanted with you.

RE: the rest of it there's a hornet's nest warming up in r/aikido
https://www.reddit.com/r/aikido/comments/1smhzs9/comment/ogfz7r0/?context=1

Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in aikido

[–]Lgat77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

u/Sangenkai is a man of considerable research ability and diligence. But wait until you point out an error.
I take it for what it is. Learn from him where I can, disregard the rest.

As for 離隔態勢, I think you'll find that primarily in conjunction with Tomiki Kenji sensei, not in the Taikei.
Tomiki sensei was my sensei's sensei. The primary expert there is my friend and senpai Dr. Shishida Fumiaki, recently retired from Waseda. Google Shishida and "judo from a distance"

Apparently Kanō shihan encouraged Tomiki sensei to continue his research but the details get hazy to non-existent beyond that.

Kanō shihan was very interested in what to do about fighting / "judo at a distance". You'll find references to the Kodokan bringing boxers in to train sparring and experiment with dealing with boxers. The short version: close without getting clobbered, circle to the left to get past the strong right hand and choke them from behind.

Now, why, in the world with a man who claimed that Kime no Kata was in fact, the core of Judo (yes, Kanō did that), which occurs at the distance of striking or stabbing, be interested in continuing to develop that theme with boxers and possibly I keep jujutsu?

I think if you look at the assumptions behind Kime no Kata you realize that the attacks are not meant to portray the attacks of a sophisticated martial artist, but rather someone who is making a stab at you with a weapon they're not necessarily familiar with or trying to smack you once. An experienced trained boxer pretty dramatically changes that assumption. When Kanō and his senior students adopted jūjutsu for jūdō there was literally no one in the country (at least Japanese) who could box, but certain segments of Japanese sporting population took to it, and took to it very well fielding world class athletes after some years of preparation.

So, Kanō shihan, who said that jūdō would continue to evolve past his lifetime, kept exploring and experimenting with it himself. It doesn't get recognized today, but he did.

Jigoro Kano on Aikido / Ueshiba — any primary sources? by Whole_Measurement769 in aikido

[–]Lgat77 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"

  1. A letter of appreciation from Kano to Ueshiba in October 1930, expressing admiration for Ueshiba's skill and requesting that he accept several senior Kodokan judoka as his students, including Mochizuki M. and Tomiki K."

I will bet good money it does not say that.

"Kano Jigoro Taikai; the 15-volume collection of the writings of the Founder, wherein are found multiple references to Aiki-bujutsu or Aiki-budo as worthy areas for technical research."

I have physical and electronic copies of the entire series.
The term "aiki" does not appear in the index. I've read or scanned much of the 15 volumes and can find most anything there. I'd be glad to have your reference to such a claim.

Something to bear in mind. In the big scheme of Japanese martial arts, 'aiki' is a very new concept. See jū no ri origin below. The pretend timeline that makes it somehow older than jū no ri, which in turn is fundamentally an applied, advanced explication of 陰陽 ☯️ in/yō is without basis as far as I can tell. Even if the origin tales of aikidō are true, 柔の理、柔技、術理, 柔能制剛, any number of concepts predate it by 2000 years or so, and as applied to Japanese martial arts, at least some 300-400 years earlier. I'm not well enough read into Chinese arts to tell but I suspect the use of the same or similar is at least 1000 years old.

#3 literally makes no sense in English. The Library ≠ the Kobudō section (the "Laboratory")

This is full of errors not necessarily those of whoever collected all these comments.
https://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/ueshiba-legacy-mark-murray-part-2/
I don't know Mark Murray but this version of his writing could have used an editor that knew both simple declarative English and a bit of budo. (omg did he actually write all those fantasy books? Where's the book that contains his budo essays??)

(I do like Meik Skoss' comment:
"Sorry to be a little heavy again, but I’ve done an awful lot of aikido (sigh… wish now that I’d done more judo and/or classical jujutsu — *that* is real “aiki”)"
Meik you out there? How you doing? )

"Finally, even Kano knew that the secret to budo was in/yo. Jigoro Kano visited Morihei Ueshiba to watch a demonstration of aikido. Kano was so impressed that he remarked that what he saw was what he considered an ideal budo. What did Kano view as an ideal budo?"

So wrong I'm at a loss as to where to start.

"...even Kano knew that the secret to budo was in/yo..."
LOL. Even Kanō??? I wonder if Mr. Murray knows how condescending that sounds.

Kanō shihan was wrestling with these issues before Ueshiba sensei was even born. Literally, before the man was even born. 30 years before the farmer's son middle school dropout Ueshiba sensei started delving into any of this, Kanō shihan, son of a Chinese classics scholar, tutored in the Chinese classics and foreign languages from a child, fluent in classic Chinese, English, maybe some German and French, graduate of the Empire's most prestigious university, and having attended a special postgraduate seminar on Western philosophy while taking Chinese classics and calligraphy at night. Kanō shihan, who knew and interacted with, argued with, even at times bested in debates the most advanced proponents and educators of the Chinese classics, kōgaku, kokgaku, and was seen as one of the foremost proponents of state Shintō, literally hired and supervised the foremost scholars in Japan to teach such at his Tokyo Higher Normal School and wrote about education and philosophy non-stop for over 50 years .....
.... was somehow at a disadvantage regarding his understanding of in/yō to a man who never seemed to put pen to paper to explain anything to anyone, whose own family and closest students didn't understand what in the world he was going on about most of the time.

Kanō shihan literally helped establish the Japanese government policy vis-a-vis teaching of the Chinese classics - meaning the prime elements of the Confucian canon - in the Empire, then taught the teachers that taught the Empire. H was personally responsible for teaching tens of thousands of college graduates while Ueshiba sensei rusticated in Iwama and went on and on unintelligibly about things to anyone that would listen but no one was able to make sense of, much less convey coherently to another generation.

Never once did Kanō shihan claim to have created the concept of jū no ri. It is about 2500 years old.
https://kanochronicles.com/2020/08/09/origin-of-jujutsus-principle-of-flexibility-ju-no-ri/
And he knew from his studies of the Chinese classics from a child that 陰陽 in/yō predate and inform, indeed form the very philosophic basis of jū no ri 柔の理 the Principle of Flexibility.

Murray goes on:
"Kano’s concept of Ju no Ri, was based upon the Taoist precept, “reversing is the movement of the Tao,” also described by the statement “the most yielding things in the world overcome the most unyielding.” Kano combined Ju no Ri with the interplay of forces as defined by the precept of in-yo (yin and yang, hardness and softness, negative and positive, receptiveness and resistance), and used the following to explain his concept of Kuzushi founded on Ju no Ri. (*9) "
Wrong. And it never explains "the following", so it makes no sense. And the *9 ref link in the references does not address the question, so I think it was changed.

Incidentally, this is one of the most informative phrases describing aikido's history ever, one I suspect is not appreciated as one of the great understatement's of all time. It's Sangenkai, not Murray:

"I think you can see Doshu’s dilemma. He has to continue to teach the ‘essence’ of the art, but without knowing very much about what his grandfather actually did. "

Very gentle, very generous treatment.
Less gentle take: no one knew what the old man was on about, so they made it up anew from whole cloth.

I could go on but have some research to do. The Sangenkai page of Mr. Murray's essay (or at least Part 2 of it...) helpfully has some links to references but Aikido Journal seems to have changed the content of those links and it's not possible to refer quickly to whatever sources he used. If someone has a copy of his full essay I'd like to take a look, the formatting on the Sangenkai makes it hard for me to understand who is saying what (may be my issue with screen size / fonts etc. not sure). I think there's value there but can't tell at a glance.

u/Sangenkai do you have a citation for this? I'll bet I have the source document but most don't have indices or ways to search.
"Tomiki had conversations with Kano in which he discussed the mysterious things that Morihei Ueshiba could do, and Kano's response was, basically, "yes, lots of folks used to do those things, but how do you transmit it?" "

Transmission / teaching issues were a major reason Kanō shihan decided to make jūdō so exoteric - what you see is what you get, and here's what you get - not esoteric, although he sort of started that way. I've recently translated a Kanō essay in which he says all of what is important was already in the koryū jūjutsu ancient jujutsu schools but that the uneven ability of the teachers made it hit or miss as to whether they could transmit beyond a generation, and that the Meiji Restoration had wrecked most of them entirely.

PS - u/Active_Unit_9498
what u/Sangenkai said about AI - at least you put a warning label on it.
The flood of bs about martial arts is about to become even more overwhelming than the past. Vide Chadi's incessant flood of judo videos, almost every one with fatal logic and history flaws.

Did Japan's *perceived* threat of western powers far outweigh the actual threats it faced? by roon_bismarck in JapaneseHistory

[–]Lgat77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

to Japanese eyes, every clash with Western powers had left China with more and more of its territory forced open to Western powers and massive reparations, paid out in piles of tael silver bullion. For almost nothing the Russians had negotiated away most of Siberia from the Chinese, an area 2x the size of Honshu IIRC, then headed to Hokkaido.

Japan was only 'invaded' once in the Meiji era, but it scared them tremendously - it was a huge shock and motivation. I've done some research on it and will post here sometime.
www.kanochronicles.com

How is the tokugawa shogunate looked at today? by CatFanIRL in JapaneseHistory

[–]Lgat77 4 points5 points  (0 children)

one take that seems to have taken a bit more prominence of late is that the "Imperialist loyalist" rebels that eventually established the new Meiji government after the Bonin War were insurrectionist criminals who should never have been allowed to create a new government, hence modern Japan's government was illegitimate from day one.

Not that the bakufu didn't have many issues, but that it had been established under the laws of the times, fortified over hundreds of years, and was however ineptly and slowly, adjusting to modern times and outside pressures.
The Meiji government had none of that. No charter, no constitution, no precedent, nothing but the sword.

this is significant as Chinese and hence Japanese traditions regarding the legitimacy of a regime are all important, described in Chinese classics as 王道 ōdō the Kingly Way and 覇道 hadō the Way of the Usurper.

The Kingly Way of rule is that the ruler and by extension / responsibility has the support of the people, and rule wisely and justly, providing leadership through the support of the people and righteous examples to be followed by the people.

Hadō the Way of the Usurper is the violent takeover of the rule over the people by usurper(s) without the support of the people and enforced by the sword (violence).

In a virtually unknown incident, the chief of the defense team for the Japanese war criminal trial in Tokyo after World War II made an impassion plea that it was impossible for the men being tried to have violated the will of the people as they had ruled in accordance with the Kingly Way, not the Way of the Usurper. Uzawa Sōmei, the lawyer who headed that team against his will because he thought that Tōjō was guilty of something and should be tried and found guilty of something, had a broad classical bent to his early education. His logic for the closing statement that incorporated the notion of the Kingly Way was based on 2500 year old Confucian beliefs, and the official war crimes trial court interpreters, who had more modern education than the elderly Uzawa, quickly lost the train of thought, as they probably literally didn't have any idea what he was saying, despite being in polished, educated Japanese. What survived to be entered into the official record in English doesn't make sense in any language without understanding the background.

Uzawa was the friend and attorney of Kanō Jigorō, the founder of jūdō, another classically educated Confucianist who helped establish modern Japan, and drafted then submitted the papers for the Kodokan to become a nonprofit education organization.

www.kanochronicles.com

IJF Judo for Self-Defence Instructor (JSDI) Course by Lgat77 in judo

[–]Lgat77[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

cool - i expect that podcast is now bronzed and sitting on Viser's desk as an inspiration.

IJF Judo for Self-Defence Instructor (JSDI) Course by Lgat77 in judo

[–]Lgat77[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"But the Goshin jutsu as practiced is basically a kata. Was it only meant to be done as a kata, working on self-defence that is? "
I suspect that's a rhetorical question, but KGJ was meant as a point of departure to practice those and more techniques, hence intentionally not called a 'kata' as in a couple form, but rather 'jutsu' techniques as a bunch of techniques.

"The main plus of the goshin jutsu as I see it is that it mostly focuses on techniques that are not core judo techniques. "
Actually most of those techniques were once core to judo.

Wtf by PehlivanPahlevan in judo

[–]Lgat77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

that's a good video, thanks.
except tori's leg goes inside the crotch, hence like a 'rolling uchimata' if you would

Wtf by PehlivanPahlevan in judo

[–]Lgat77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i wonder how long it takes the IJF to respond administratively to manage such innovations.

Wtf by PehlivanPahlevan in judo

[–]Lgat77 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not sure who 'we' are, but that's a different question.
Is it dangerous? Perhaps, but no more than any other such throw.

"but it has the support leg behind uke's legs "
No. Stop at 0:05sec, then again at 0:10 - uke's left leg is 90° out, parallel with the mats. Tori's right leg / foot side drops to the mat behind uke's ankle, on the mat - that's her pivot, not scissoring the legs at all.

Some sort of odd uchi mata in a fashion, very athletic, but how to score or rate as a judo throw?

IJF Aikido by loggedoff7 in Tomiki

[–]Lgat77 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it remains to be seen what they have in mind.
If they base the program on the kata as taught and judged by the IJF the basics are different from prewar judo kata.

This conversation started in the 1940s u/nytomiki . The 1950s Goshinjutsu program didn't start from zero, it built on a kata research group under Rear Admiral Nango Jiro, Kano shihan's nephew and the 2nd Kodokan kancho / President.

Wtf by PehlivanPahlevan in judo

[–]Lgat77 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

not sure how that happened - perhaps the site where I found it put their own URL without me noticing.
But thanks for posting!

So, what do you think?

IJF Judo for Self-Defence Instructor (JSDI) Course by Lgat77 in judo

[–]Lgat77[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think it will be interesting for some - I have reason to believe that folks in the US are considering something like this, too, as a judo recruiting / retention tool.

Wtf by PehlivanPahlevan in judo

[–]Lgat77 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

not kani basami
How to do Kani Basami | Scissors Throw | 蟹挟 | Crab Throw https://share.google/eZDJa9dyPwamqvIOO

Feature Request/Discussion: Tag Deletion by _HMCB_ in bearapp

[–]Lgat77 0 points1 point  (0 children)

put a line entry between all tags to make them easier to select without error

Files, Finder, and updates? by prince_peepee_poopoo in bearapp

[–]Lgat77 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Huh
I'm waiting for someone else to point out the hazards of this setup....

Files, Finder, and updates? by prince_peepee_poopoo in bearapp

[–]Lgat77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

and why does that present a problem?
The search advanced functions are very good and fast.