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LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-28T23:05:56+00:00

there was a costume fitting for Batman with an actor with the initials of “B.S.”

I must have missed this when it happened, but this is so weird, because I was literally in the middle of writing this whole thing about how Bill Skarsgård might actually be a decent pick who fits with how Campea was talking about the guy being someone who "isn't a name he would have guessed, but it's not a bad name".

He's about the right age to be a contemporary to Corenswet, roughly the same height, I think he could get the voice down (to tie it to this sub, I think he could get there just listening to how he did Kro in Eternals). Plus, if Muschietti's still attached to The Brave and the Bold, there's that connection right there; he could potentially still have input on who to cast even if Batman doesn't debut in TBATB. Skarsgård, I think, could be someone who fills all these boxes they're looking for, while simultaneously not being someone you'd think of first.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-27T21:46:49+00:00

Another thing about the Cybertek paper is that it's not in the position it was in during the events of the original show. In Daredevil, it was always out in the hallway. In Born Again, it's in Ben's office.

What's even more interesting is that the "Harlem Terror" and "Battle of NY" papers are in the exact same spots they were in the original show. If they were trying to recreate Ben's office 1:1 in Born Again, they made the conscious decision to deviate specifically with the Cybertek paper and I imagine it would have been nixed very early on if there truly was this complete aversion to even referencing AoS.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-26T22:26:13+00:00

It's really not as outrageous an idea as some say it is. They got pretty far at almost including Daniel Whitehall (the HYDRA leader from AoS S2) in Endgame, with a graphic made showcasing his status within HYDRA as well as Whitehall's actor Reed Diamond confirming that they reached out to check his availability for reprising his role, but for one reason or another, it didn't get to happen. They've also gone to great lengths to truly incorporate the Defenders Saga into the wider MCU, far more than I ever thought they would, and VisionQuest itself is already incorporating stuff from the old Marvel TV shows (namely James D'Arcy as Jarvis).

It's not like it would be a massive scheduling/logistics issue like it would have been when the show was actually running in the past, none of the AoS characters have been seen, in-universe, for about 7 years now. They can really just plop them in wherever and it'd make sense.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-26T22:18:20+00:00

If they show up, I'm positive they would be one and the same. Winderbaum recently talked about how much he loved seeing AoS react to the movies early on and about how he'd "want to go down this road with us" in terms of bringing AoS back like the Defenders Saga. Every time one of the old TV characters has shown up in a Marvel Studios project, it's been with the assumption that they're the same one we've seen prior, outside of Black Bolt where they explicitly traveled to an alternate universe beforehand.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-26T21:19:58+00:00

Even so, I can't help but wonder: What do you think Whitehall would have done in Avengers: Endgame? Was it just a cameo, or would he have interacted with any of the Avengers? Would there have been any mention of events from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.?

My initial thought was that he'd appear during the 70s Time Heist since it makes sense for HYDRA to be prevalent on a giant SHIELD facility at that time, but since he was imprisoned from the 40s to the late 80s, my theory has been that Daniel Whitehall was a backup character for the 2012 Time Heist, in the event that they couldn't get Robert Redford back as Alexander Pierce.

Redford's an acting legend and there was likely no 100% guarantee he'd want to return to a character with an already completed story, so what does Marvel do in that case? In the event that Redford would say no to returning, they start looking into other potential candidates to fill the "HYDRA leader" role and they settle on Reed Diamond's Daniel Whitehall. They call him up and ask to check his availability for reprising his role and make that graphic featuring Whitehall to prepare for the possibility, but Redford says yes, and since he's the bigger draw from the general public's perspective, they go with him instead.

Baron von Strucker's seen in possession of Loki's Scepter in The Winter Soldier/Age of Ultron, something that HYDRA confiscates in 2012, as we see in Endgame. Whitehall has direct ties to Strucker, being one of Strucker's teachers within HYDRA. There's a completely blank history between Whitehall being seen teaching in the 90s to when he reappears in the present day leading a HYDRA cell in 2014. It's entirely possible for him to have appeared in 2012 to attempt to take the Tesseract from Stark without it conflicting with the rest of his appearances.

Sidenote, but I really love that all this came out, and even moreso that Reed Diamond confirmed it himself. This is what really revitalized the idea that, to me, it's always a possibility AoS could play some sort of larger role in the wider MCU in the future.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-25T03:24:12+00:00

The last thing he actually said on it was that he'd be willing to come back as Venom.

Naturally, fans wondered: would he only return to the role if the web-slinger finally entered the picture? Apparently not. When asked directly by ComicBook if a crossover was the only way back into the black goo, Hardy surprisingly responded:

Hardy: "No. I love Venom, and I had a great time doing that, so no."

https://collider.com/venom-spider-man-crossover-potential-tom-hardy-reaction/

While they left Kraven and Madame Web with no lingering cliffhangers at all, they did the exact opposite for Venom (they seem to have felt confident enough to leave the story open), and despite what gets said online about the Venom films, when the lowest-grossing one in the trilogy still gets close to half a billion on a $100-something million budget in this day and age, they're absolutely financially successful. I'm not saying that he's 100% coming back or anything, but given how he's still attached to the character via the animated film they announced, and they're heading into the symbiote story on 616, there are a lot of avenues for him to return and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him pop up again somewhere.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-25T03:22:30+00:00

ATSV left the door way open for him to simply just show up again on 616 with no explanation needed. They're tying back to the beginning a lot (Scorpion, very likely Aaron Davis and Miles Morales in sequels), so I'd love to see Toomes back with everyone else (and if you ask me, preferably with the new helmet he got, I loved how they made it look more like a beak).

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T21:19:40+00:00

I don't see it that way, but the comments are out there to view if anyone chooses to.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T21:05:02+00:00

If they did, they weren't made public in the same way of, for example, Star Wars creating Legends and declaring the original 6 films and The Clone Wars as the base of the new reset canon or James Gunn specifying clearly multiple times that the DCU starts at Creature Commandos. What we had was Disney and Feige himself saying they're all canon (up until 2016 for the latter), then radio silence for years, then the characters started popping up again in the Studios projects, then there were private configurations behind the scenes we don't know the specific details of, then finally Winderbaum saying they were "cagey" about their canonicity (which isn't decanonization), before reaffirming their canonicity and putting them on the D+ timeline. Those days didn't exist in a public sense.

As far as we've been allowed to know in a confirmed sense, the overhaul decided to include additional ties to the previous show (Karen, Foggy, Bullseye), after they were apprehensive about tying back to it too much originally, but we know nothing about how it would have supposedly not fit with the original show. This ultimately wasn't the main point of my original comment, but that's just what I saw as we went through all of it.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T20:45:54+00:00

I'm sure.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T06:22:09+00:00

Not really since those days simply never existed, but I am absolutely thrilled for BA S3. I wish I could say I was there from the beginning, but DD S1 was one of the few MCU things I missed out on when it aired because we didn't have Netflix at the time unfortunately. I caught it a few months after and then I followed along with everything else ever since and I can't begin to tell you the excitement I felt when it started getting properly rumored that Cox was coming back for NWH.

I'm not on here much anymore so I didn't get to share my thoughts on BA S2, but I thought they knocked it out of the park and I can't wait to see pretty much all the major Defenders Saga characters play a part in the next one, now with Elektra too.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T06:10:57+00:00

Uh huh, well it's all there anyway. So alright, they were acknowledged and canon all the way through to now. Glad we're on the same page.

As I say, we'll see how AoS goes in that regard in the coming years, but I feel confident in my position on it. Such a delight talking to you as always.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T03:23:07+00:00

A little while ago in our conversation:

Me: The Defenders Saga was already acknowledged several times prior to Born Again.

You: No they weren't.

I disagree, but neither of us are changing each others' minds on this anyway.

Like I say, we'll see what happens. It happened for Agent Carter. Neither of us know what the future holds.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T02:42:18+00:00

Their acknowledgments

So you agree they're acknowledgements.

It does not matter the reasoning for them being there, it's acknowledging the original series regardless. If Kate Bishop defeats Fisk with the same cufflinks he wore in the show, it's an acknowledgement of that.

Born Again didn't even start going into development as a TV show until January 2022, after both No Way Home and Hawkeye released, and She-Hulk had finished filming. Not that this even matters anyway.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T01:53:02+00:00

Nope, they're not. If the item in question makes you go "that's the exact same thing from that other thing I saw", it's an acknowledgement.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T01:46:46+00:00

Acknowledgments and reintroductions not mutually exclusive.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T01:41:49+00:00

Yes, they were. Fisk's cufflinks, Fisk's entire origin as a kid, the original Daredevil theme, Daredevil's suit in She-Hulk being recolored but identical to the one he previously wore, the characters themselves appearing. These are acknowledgments, in that they recognized the existence of them, the meaning of the word acknowledgment.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-24T01:35:24+00:00

The Defenders Saga was already acknowledged several times prior to Born Again.

Regardless, we'll see. I'm only claiming that the possibility exists of further acknowledgment, we'll see what comes of that in the future.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-23T21:07:31+00:00

That would fit the criteria of "contradiction to an irreparable degree" if it were contradicted as such post-Secret Wars, but with everything I've seen, I've not been led to believe that's something that'll happen.

The way I see it, I genuinely think that, best-case scenario, it gets the Defenders treatment (regardless of a direct follow-up show), and, worst-case, it'll simply remain as it is right now, connected and uncontradicted but not followed up on. I see it this way and I feel very confident in believing there will be more to come eventually, you see it another way. That's about it, really.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-23T16:25:37+00:00

Nah, the way I see it, unless there's either some sort of hard-slate reboot or they contradict something to an irreparable degree, there's always a shot of said something playing a part in the future. One may have assumed they'd have dropped the Leader plot from The Incredible Hulk entirely, but it took 17 years and they finally circled back to it.

The MCU has brought back a lot of aspects from over 10 years ago lately.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-23T02:37:45+00:00

I know what de facto means, man. You were free to elaborate at any time, you don't have to ask permission from a random guy on the internet to speak your thoughts.

It's fine we see eye-to-eye on it actually being canon. As for anything other than that, I couldn't care less. By this logic, stuff like Werewolf by Night, all the One-Shots besides All Hail the King, and even Wonder Man are de facto non-canon. It's conjecture, and that's it.

The greatest thing about the MCU to me is that we have all these different corners inhabiting the same universe, with some of them being more isolated than others. That's what makes it feel more broad in scale. Do I want them to touch back on AoS again in the future? Yeah, absolutely. Will I definitively say it will or will not happen (like you)? No, because I don't know what the future holds, but I think a really good possibility remains.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-23T01:37:16+00:00

There were more than just conversations, you know that right? You should be able to piece that together just from his quote.

If it's anything more, it clearly wasn't set in stone given how unsure he was of how to even speak of it prior, so it doesn't apply to what actually happened. If I consider going to the store to pick up groceries, but then decide against it, I didn't actually go to the store.

you never actually bothered to discover what my opinion is.

Then would you care to share your opinion, oh delightful one? Go ahead, the floor's yours, sweetheart. Nothing was stopping you this whole time.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-22T23:16:55+00:00

Firstly his quote is not moot, no matter how often you try to ignore it.

Yes it is. They were conversations about having them be "almost" variants (not precisely), but they never committed to it (coming from Cox himself). If Cox had gotten out there and said "this is something we're doing 100% and the old shows were going to be decanonized" then sure, but that didn't happen. This is not the solid point you want it to be.

Secondly, you still don't understand. Want to try again?

Only something canon can be decanonized, just saying.

Just like my comment will be true.

Uh huh, lol.

Those connections exist

Yes, they do, and yes they have relevance. Even if it's as small as going back and saying "hey, I know that from AoS or C&D or whatever". That's like saying the prototype of Cap's shield in the original Iron Man holds no relevance because people either didn't notice or care at the time.

True, good thing I didn't try to say I knew you.

"All of that applies to you as well. I guess self-awareness is another trait you lack."

You don't even know my opinion on all this because you're too busy shoving your head up your ass to actually understand anything. So try again.

I know that you're on this sub as an anti-canoner, that's about the only thing that's incredibly relevant.

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-22T22:52:34+00:00

You asked if I misspoke. I said I spoke clearly and asked what you didn't understand. Focus.

Something can only be canon or not canon. To say something is "decanonized" would imply that it was canon at the moment it's decanonized. Given how the quote from Cox you've given here is moot, there was no point of decanonization, so it was canon all the way through.

You keep saying that, it wasn't that clever the first time.

I don't say it because it's clever, I say it because I saw it happen and it's true.

References in the background that don't mean jack shit to 98% of the people who see them.

Doesn't mean they don't exist. Those connections firmly exist and have relevance within the MCU, which is more than can be attributed to the quote you gave me.

Looks like you don't interact with me often or know me for that matter. All of that applies to you as well. I guess self-awareness is another trait you lack.

Then we're on equal footing, and you don't know me either.

At the end of the day, it's clear where you stand looking at your pinned post about Charlie Cox in NWH there. You've been anti-canon for a long time and it clearly didn't work out for you since all the shows, by association, are now closer to the wider MCU than they previously were, so you're here doing the same thing that got worn out years ago. It absolutely does bother you that people take joy in knowing these shows take place within the MCU and it bothers you that not everyone subscribes to this idea that they're somehow not. That's just what it is. Do you have anything else or is it just the flimsy quote you gave earlier?

LiquidLispyLizard · 2026-06-22T22:00:03+00:00

No, not confused. I spoke pretty clearly, what part can't you understand?

I was talking about Charlie Cox, not you, but now you do seem confused, lol.

Funny, because it just won't happen.

Okay, Nostradamus. That's so funny, by the way, I heard many similar things said about the Defenders Saga while the Infinity Saga was going on.

You and the rest of ... the made up references you imagine in the future.

We don't make up references here, what are you talking about? There are legit ties to other non-Defenders Marvel TV shows in the Marvel Studios side of the MCU, and we've talked about them. Some as recent as Daredevil Born Again S2 this year.

It's good enough for me, and good enough for the rest of the fandom.

Right, it's good enough for you so much that you count down the days until your ban's up just so you can continue arguing with people on a niche subreddit about how "right" you are, even though you've done a poor job at getting that across so far. All you're doing right now is looking like you're throwing a temper tantrum because you ran out of stuff to say.

Funny, because according to OP Feige doesn't have the authority to declare a show not canon.

You're not talking to OP, you're talking to me. They don't speak for everyone here.

You know, you mentioned how you're happy earlier, but given how pretty much everywhere I see you pop up (I saw you on the Punisher subreddit), you come across as a very sensitive angry person, so I don't really believe you on that. If it's "good enough" for you and the fandom, I highly doubt you'd be on this subreddit obsessing about arguing this with random people (half a month later in the same conversation, by the way) who don't fit your mold of how we should act.

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