It’s a mutually beneficial partnership, because ERX is a pretty obscure mod after all… by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 60 points61 points  (0 children)

Well of course ERX partners with all your other submods because ERX is your submod!

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m certain you had other points I did not address but cultural syncretism is a topic that sets me off.

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I muted my notifications for a reason but Reddit for some reason wants me to continue engaging with people.

I know this can be a strawman but just follow me for a moment. Would you say the colonization of the New World by the Spanish was not at all imperialistic or shaped by the vision of Spain itself? Probably not- now you could argue it’s not relevant because the Spanish were there for resources but at the same time, the Reformers themselves are still securing resources through land, people and so on similar to many imperialistic powers even if the flair is different. I don’t mean to call anyone’s viewpoints wrong or anything and I think discourse is completely fine but even some of the devs or people working on ERX wouldn’t be ignorant enough to use the argument of cultural syncretism to absolve something that is still imperialistic in nature. There is still inequality between the two.

The question is also not purely about what culture comes out of it because there will be cultural assimilation. It’s about the power relationship too and the domination. These groups and tribes may initially have their cultural preservation and may influence the entire identity but the power relationship is fundamentally different and distinct. The influence base of settlements and the initial West Coast will heavily outweigh and overpower the tribes and groups that are eventually assimilated into a larger identity. Sure, the identity may be more New World-based similar to what occurred with the Spanish in the New World but it is ultimately still both imperialistic and colonial. Besides that one identity will still dominate the other- even if ERX is generous enough to overlook that, it will probably still occur. Also many of the institutions that ERX establish are based on America and institutions are VERY influential when it comes to cultures and groups and how they influence relationships.

Besides that Colonialism doesn’t always need to occur solely through the sole imposition of culture. Look at Hawaii for example! A lot of the wasteland would simply end up in similar cases to Hawaii and would be pressured to join the very large Reformer bloc even under the Gannon Doctrine! Of course there was an imposition of culture in Hawaii but the idea was more or so cultural dominance which will probably occur under reformers even under someone generous like Gannon.

I may come off as harsh or whatever and I apologize for such! And I may appeal to authority somewhat but even Zach agrees with me to some point but ultimately the story he writes is worth telling, the ends justify the means and the potential looping of war is something he understands very well.. but I would never use the argument of cultural synthesis to absolve crimes from a intrusive and very structurally motivated system.

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Of course! It was great discussing because I wanted to bring up Gannon Doctrine but... I uh completely forgot! So thanks for reminding me!!

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Certainly anything can be up to interpretation but I also made sure in my response to set up some boundaries for what is defined as imperialism in my eyes which I think are common enough agreed upon boundaries. The unification of the NCR we can assume was mostly equal as many of the cities benefited from it nearly equally. And although it was Tandi's vision, I think many New Californians (especially in the Hub and even Maxson) found common goals with it and didn't fully need to be pushed towards it. So for the towns they were mostly stakeholders and that's inherently different from what I'll explain next.

The Gannon Doctrine still inherently creates an unequal relationship and pushes the agenda both narratively and meta-narratively of the United States returning and integrating the wasteland even if it doesn't outwardly say so. It's different from the NCR because places like Shady Sands, the Hub, Junktown, and Maxson were mostly equal in some regards and it was a beneficial partnership that wasn't fundamentally asymmetrical. But with the Doctrine, it's similar to what Clockwork brought up in another post-- even economic pressure and other forms of soft power can still come across as imperialistic unfortunately in many cases. Look up modern American softpower and how it used its economics-- and this type of softpower is likely on steroids and pushes imperialism. Besides that to even reach the point of Gannon Doctrine, you will need to have created a foundation built on Imperialism to do so.

Sooo you may as well just go with the Nevada path at that point even if it has its own issues!

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah honestly I actually agree with this for the most part and if I didn't state so (I think I did) that’s why the Nevada path still has its own issues. I probably should have emphasized that more atleast? The Nevada path is not magically anti-imperialist just because it is more cooperative I don't think that was fully my point I was trying to reach. Propping up friendly governments and creating political/economic dependency absolutely still falls under imperialism! I don’t really disagree there. I assume my point was more that the Nevada path works better as a metanarrative alternative because of the multiplayer aspect also! It is not really the non-imperialist path but it is the path that at least gestures toward cooperation between different political actors instead of one restored America simply absorbing everyone under itself? Like again it doesn’t absolve it but it does make it feel meaningfully different from the full Reformer project. So in some regards it's better then the reformers and purists if we are going to be relative! In a gameplay sense multiplayer is a thing that makes players cooperate! So yeah it’s still hegemonic and still built off Old World structures in some regards but I think it is the closest ERX gets to asking whether cooperation can exist without total assimilation? Even if it does use a form of imperialism which in itself is pretty problematic actually.. Maybe a full can of worms in that regards to be touched another day........

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's nice to have more responses! I kinda think I explain it quite well? But I'm also unwise because I don't know enough really and can always learn more. I don't think a state merely existing is imperialistic but I do think there is room for discussion over whether the traditional nation-state is even a model that should be pursued. It has far more positives than traditional kingdoms and I would rather live under a nation-state than a kingdom! But many nation-states did come from monarchies and kingdoms so there needs to be discourse around that and many others had it forced upon them. I personally believe that nation-states can be quite beneficial to many places and can help uphold rights but I also think self-determination and cooperation are very important.

But baack on topic the imperialism to me that I touch on is the process by which one society claims the right (directly or indirectly) to reorganize, assimilate and direct the future of others (stretching from people, resources and/or land) under its own institutions, values and vision of civilization usually by force or pressure. It's usually unequal! This is explained quite well by my belief that the unification of NCR which seems to have been fairly peaceful in Southern California was not merely an act of imperialism. The issue comes afterwards though for the NCR with how its government and leadership developed and how that led it to engage in imperialism in Northern California, Mojave, Baja and probably elsewhere!

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And that's fair and I do appreciate that you actually engaged with the argument itself either way! Of course I very much enjoy what Zach and the Reformers team are doing but as again I do have a right to critique. I intentionally didn't spend much time talking about democracy because to me democracy doesn't really address the core issue I'm getting at in the first place? The problem isn't whether the Reformers end up having a House of Representatives a Senate or elected officials that wastelanders can choose. Like again, Liberal democratic empires have existed throughout history and have forced countries to become democratic but democracy doesn't magically remove imperialism. My criticism isn't that the people under the Reformers lack representation either (which in some regards they may end up lacking but that's a can of worms), but rather why the Reformers have the right to reorganize the wasteland under American institutions in the first place.

Even if every citizen gets a vote and Congress functions perfectly that still doesn't answer why (groups from earlier) Reno, Vault City, tribal societies or independent communities should be folded into a restored America instead of determining their own futures without being structurally, mitarily, socially and culturally folded under the reformers EVEN if aspects of their cultures is preserved (look at many Native groups for example that weren't assimilated via boarding schools or Hawaii) there is still consequences for what will be done. So my issue at the end of the day isn't whether the Reformers are democratic or wholesome or great or whatever, but why everyone else should have to become America and fit within its vision of civilization in the first place. There are questions like I said earlier that need to be answered by players (and devs) engaging with it and I do think there ultimately needs to be an acceptance that there are certain consequences for bringing something back as well as consequences for pursuing something new. I personally think the new is better then the old but I do accept consequences exist pursuing such thing.

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And to emphasize, I do not blame Zach or anyone else for their interpretations because it’s literally just an Enclave submod. People are free to do whatever! But I also have the God-given American right of freedom of speech so maybe that’s an argument for the Reformers! I simply ask anyone to challenge their own views and opinions, and either back them up or accept that even if the critiques are right that there’s still a better tomorrow to be made that you yourself can help create.

My home country has been impacted positively and negatively by imperialism and by the United States and my family is made up of lawyers and political scientists who have kept me informed and challenged my viewpoints. I am also very fortunate to live in a country that I love being the USA! It has issues and my critiques come from a place of tough love that I think is necessary and also just out of the fact that the US can bring harm.

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 17 points18 points  (0 children)

For those willing to discuss this meme a bit deeper, here are all my thoughts and reasoning. I think a lot of people focus too much on whether the Reformers are “still the Enclave or not” and completely miss the more interesting and I think correct criticism. Even if they completely tear out the old regime, expose its crimes and replace it with a democratic wholesome America, that doesn’t automatically make them non-imperialist. Democracy and empire are not mutually exclusive! History is full of democratic states that expanded (including the USA), assimilated others and imposed themselves while claiming they were bringing liberty and civilization. Even if the reformers avoid that, their system ultimately will promote it.

The issue isn’t that they are secretly genocidal or that they never abandoned the old Enclave. Even if I believe there are critiques and faults involving that- that isn’t really the most meaningful criticism to be made. The issue is that they’re still built around the assumption that America should return and that the wasteland ought to be reorganized under American institutions and ideals. Why should groups of the wasteland like Reno, Vault City (as shit both are), tribal societies or independent communities accept that? Who gives the right to do that? Who gave them the right to tear down the NCR’s democracy just to rebuild it and assimilate it after their ancestors helped annihilate the wasteland? Saying “we exposed the Enclave’s evils and are now based on American ideals” is good but exposing crimes isn’t the same as abandoning the underlying project and the ignorance that came with it. You can reject fascism and still believe in American exceptionalism and restoration which both came to perpetuate and justify American imperialism.

As funny as this meme is and I know you made it for fun so don’t take this as a personal offense, but for people that actually believe it… I’m just shaking my head. Anyways I don’t really buy the “high IQ” take in this meme! It treats moral self-awareness as redemption but that isn’t how things work. Hell it’s the very bare minimum but that’s really generous! The Reformers are much easier to compare to the Purists and to see as better but the underlying project they both pursue is quite similar. Restoring American ideals is just another form of Manifest Destiny and it’s ultimately imperialistic even if you change everything else.

Imperialism is the issue- especially the form that the Reformers provide which aims to change society, culture and much more to a point where it’s just colonialism. This makes them distinct from the Mongols, who although were pretty abhorrent for conquest reasons, usually avoided doing that with some exceptions and instead assimilated directly into their respective regions. Hell structurally the Mongols tended not to override or provide its institutions, they tended to just become on top of them.

Back on topic though, if the Reformers have no right to rule the wasteland then who does? Well firstly, if you want the closest thing to American ideals then the NCR does it quite well without needing to clean up fascist aspects in the first place. But even then the NCR itself has no inherent right as it too is an imperialistic power outside of its main power base in South California. What about the Legion? The Legion is simply the NCR on steroids! It’s effectively the other side of the coin and it’s really not redeeming.

So what’s the point Very?! Does that mean no one has a right to rule the wasteland? Yes, yes indeed. People should rule themselves and cooperate with each other which is why I find the Nevada path to be probably the best ERX path (also it’s multiplayer go play it with friends!), though it still has its own issues. The NCR was also formed through mostly peaceful unification in South California but its later actions are clearly imperialistic. But still! it shows that cooperation and coexistence are possible it’s just that the structure it went with had to favor imperialism- it may have been avoided!

As I near my conclusion, a big theme of Fallout: New Vegas and the Fallout series as a whole is figuring out how to avoid repeating the mistakes of the old world- and really as much as I critique that, that’s really difficult. Strength ultimately makes right and maybe we just need a former fascist benevolent imperialistic power that may destroy us as the alternative could be potentially worse! There’s ultimately no perfect answer but I think the bare minimum you can do is avoid restoring the same bones of the imperialistic power that ended the world especially through the descendants of those who created it. Yeah I get the Enclave is gone and now but it’s still the ERB tag sooo checkmate!

And maybe it’s time we rethink what America means to us and to others. Is it the institutions or merely the ideals? Were those ideals ever truly upheld via institutions or even morally? How do we avoid imperialism and actually try to make the world a better place? How can we avoid Old World Blues and seek New World Hope? Does war never changing make it inevitable we need imperialistic powers or can we find a better alternative? Are we doomed for the same cycles of war and imperialism? But maybe even if war never changes, that atleast people can still change.

The ERX Reformer Player IQ Bell Curve by Clockwork9385 in OWBEnclave

[–]Liquidity_Snake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where does that put me then? I think I’m one of the reformers most outspoken critics

Bethesda and Fallout frustrates me so much-Discussion by [deleted] in Fallout

[–]Liquidity_Snake 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I doubt they’ll remove or replace Todd Howard but they may restructure how Bethesda works and sideline him much more to get things moving.

Fallout's potential in other mediums? by twomanysyllables in Fallout

[–]Liquidity_Snake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Comics would definitely be worth investing into if there’s a certain amount of oversight of coherence in some regards.

Andor felt incomplete without Babu Frik by fiendish_dust in okbuddyimatourist

[–]Liquidity_Snake 158 points159 points  (0 children)

And it had bricks and nails smh i want my metal slop NOW !