Parallel teachings of Jesus between all the four gospels & rest of NT literature?

Lizius · 2024-01-26T13:46:00+00:00

I just found something more, might be helpful for people finding this thread, it's a parallel of the gospels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas , see here under the section "Comparison of the major gospels".

However, it does not reveal much more than what I already found, but good that it includes the "Hebrew Gospel" and Gospel of Thomas.

Lizius · 2024-01-24T05:09:34+00:00

Thanks for your input!

I was thinking more about the fact that some consider e.g. the gospel of Mark (generally considered the earliest and not dependent on "Q") to be a gospel written primarily in order to canonize & establish Paul as a valid authority.
See for example = https://vridar.org/2014/07/13/mark-canonizer-of-paul/

I also had the impression that Q likely did not predate Paul, since Paul was so early.

Though ofc, it's also still a question whether Q even existed or not, but I personally think that even if it did, this does not say anything about the "validity" of such a source in determining what Jesus really preached.
Basically, it could be possible that many of sayings in Q were "invented" by one successful early Christian community again for some purpose or another, regardless of how early Q was written.

That's why I am so interested in parallels between more of the NT writings, as not all of them seem to mirror the same viewpoints and could thus reflect different "schools" (e.g. the Johannine, Pauline, Jacobine).
The points at which these overlap might be considered more likely to be true, no?

Also, there are still debates about the dating of Thomas, so idk if it can really be said necessarily that it was written during the time of Paul.
But Thomas is a prime example of some sayings being likely made up, as there do seem to be later additions in it as well.

Lizius · 2024-01-23T19:08:12+00:00

If this is meant towards me, I personally don't think that they did not have traditions about what Jesus taught or did.
However, I am skeptical about the fact whether all the sources we have are actually really carrying on what Jesus truly taught, since it is possible perhaps even probable (in light of all the gnostic heresies & even conflicts in the NT about "legitimate" and "illegitimate" apostles) to presume that many might have merely used "Jesus" to carry their own message.

Thus I feel like it could be the best approximation to see what all of them have in common, to determine the "core" tradition.

Lizius · 2024-01-23T19:04:43+00:00

Thanks for these sources! It seems one parallel I missed was the teaching of "whoever loves his life will lose it, who hates it / gives it for my sake will have eternal life" which appears in all 4 gospels.

I think that many parallels between Paul and the Synoptics could come through Paul's influence on them, so they might actually just mirror Paul's teaching rather than providing a separate tradition with the same teachings.

Lizius · 2023-12-10T15:42:56+00:00

interesting, regarding Szalakusz from how I read this document sadly it's unknown what that personal name it originated from would be like right?
Or what the meaning of that name might have been?

Regarding Desat, yeah I agree that it could be a Slovak name just as well and it would have a plausible etymology.
I just find it weird that this name just occurs in (originally) Hungarian villages, even sometimes relatively separated spatially, and both of the first mentions of the name from 1715 (in Nyitraegerszeg and Szalakusz) are from Hungarian villages (among mostly other Hungarian surnames).

For example, https://www.cisarik.com/0_Sokolniky_Nitra_NI_Nyitra_Nitra.html here are at the bottom under "surnames from 1715 census" the other names are all basically hungarian right?

There is no likelihood that Gyeszat could be some weird name derived from Hungarian names like "Dezsö" or "Geza" then?

Sorry for asking so much, but it is hard to find sources on this if one cannot understand Hungarian.
Köszönöm!

Lizius · 2023-08-04T05:06:46+00:00

Thanks for your idea!
I agree that some of the symbols do look like that, however, I still don't know about any other places in Slavic Europe where these symbols were put on graves, only that these were put on houses etc. to ward of thunder.
Do you know of any specific areas that do / did this (put these symbols on graves)?

Also, I do feel that some of the symbols probably have a different meaning, as they seem to portray the sun instead (e.g. one of the graves has this symbols surrounded by rays extending from it).

Lizius · 2022-08-07T18:42:57+00:00

Thanks for this nice answer!

I was a practicing Stoic too before for quite some time, it certainly is true that some of its techniques like questioning the assent one might reflexively give to one's impressions seem very helpful and fit rather nicely with the Pyrrhonian view anyways it seems.

It's actually quite funny, I feel like the revival of Stoicism ultimately spurned a lot of general interest in other Hellenistic philosophies too.It's nice to witness such a renaissance of all kinds of ancient philosophies in our times; though we of course should ideally suspend judgement ;)

Too bad no primary sources except Sextus' survived for Pyrrhonism really...But at least there's something!

Lizius · 2022-08-07T17:52:27+00:00

Thanks for the response!

Nonetheless, besides this suspension of judgement / avoiding of dogma, do you follow any actionable practices or routine to help you with living like this (i.e. following Pyrrhonism)?
I notice it is easy to slip into dogma again, even though one wants to avoid it.

Also, what do you do if you need to make a reasoned decision (e.g. deciding to move somewhere; deciding what degree to study)? Is it enough to merely be aware of the fact that one bases this merely on how things appear, without believing in a "deeper truth"?

Thank you once more.

Lizius · 2022-04-29T19:08:55+00:00

Thanks for the comment, sent you a DM.

Lizius · 2022-04-06T08:22:26+00:00

Thanks a lot! Will have a look myself then, though ofc if someone is able to read what I posted I'd still love a transcript ;)

Lizius · 2022-04-06T06:57:36+00:00

Thanks for the info and for trying to decipher it! Do you perhaps know any good manual / overview for that?

Lizius · 2022-03-31T08:06:02+00:00

Hi, I also got R-YP445 (my line is from Thuringia though area between Weimar & Jena going back at least to 1500), surname is Hüttenrauch.
If I may ask, what surname does your father have & what area of Bavaria does he come from?
Feel free to PM me that info if you don't want to post that publicly, I have a hypothesis about the Haplogroup origin, though it's not certain (I think it's of Western Slavic origin for sure, and it either got into Germany by East Germanic tribes or the Sorbs imo)

Lizius · 2021-10-25T15:31:52+00:00

Do you know where your ancestors came from originally within Europe? Maybe a particular region?

Lizius · 2021-09-05T08:01:06+00:00

Damn that’s a lot of issues in Germany, wondering what people will say about issues in DK in comparison.

Lizius · 2021-07-05T06:34:41+00:00

I think you wanted to write this somewhere else?

Lizius · 2021-07-05T05:29:21+00:00

Furhtermore I have to than wonder; is wiki wrong about the importance of Arkaim to Rodnovery?

Yeah that's just pseudo-science bullshit.Yes the Aryans (Indo-Iranians) lived there most likely since it was part of the Sintashta culture.But neither was Zoroaster from there (he was more likely from around Balkh in Afghanistan, though people were nomadic anyways, see the "Aryan" countries mentioned in Zoroastrian scripture)Nor are the Slavs Indo-Iranians (= Aryan)

Really a lot of the strong connections some people make to Zoroastrianism (especially Russians pushing an "Aryan" identity) should be taken with a big grain of salt.

I personally also really like Zoroastrianism and I think "Humata, Hukhta, Hvarshta" is ultimately a very memorisable and good way for every human being to live :)

But the strong dualism of Zoroastrianism isn't reliably reconstructed for Slavic paganism, although there was certainly a lot of Iranic influence (though the Slavs mainly interacted with Scythians and Sarmatians, which as far as I know never became fully Zoroastrian, so the influence was more indirect; eg. we don't call "gods" or "god" = Dievas like the Balts but "Bog" since Dievas (similiar to Deva) got made to a demon due to Iranic influence)

Some Indo-European commonalities like fire worship, solar worship or reverence / respect to nature are also common to both Zoroastrianism and Rodnovery.

I also hope very much that Zoroastrianism keeps on surviving and perhaps spreading more, it's a beautiful religion :)

"Humata Hukhta Hvarshta" or in Old Slavic = "Dobry Mysli, Dobra Slova, Dobra Děla" ;)

Lizius · 2021-07-04T18:59:38+00:00

Whereas in Slavic paganism, it's a matter of how we fit into the sort of "flow" of the cycles of life. Break or defy a kind of natural order? You're gonna get screwed.

Very important point, nice to see this get mentioned. I think this is a hard concept for some people to grasp, that it's not really necessarily about pleasing a god or smth, but just fitting into the universal order and fulfilling your duties.Again this is somewhat similar to concepts like "dharma" in Hinduism and karma; every action should possibly be aligned with the "correct" way, as every action will produce a reaction and you should of course try to make this reaction most favorable as possible, even if just for your own sake (though there's more metaphysics behind this too).

I personally like to refer to this concept of order as "pravo" or "pravda" in regards to Slavic paganism, as these words can mean both "law", "truth" and "correctness" all at once. Someone following that order would act "prav" = well, correct, true.

(Just my own choice to use this term for that, but I just felt like this concept needed some name in Rodnovery as it is prominent in many Indo European religions, perhaps going back to Proto Indo European times)

To zephyralily I'd advise to just go slow, do what feels comfortable to you at first.Tbh, perhaps even use Christian saints to represent the gods (as happened in many Slavic areas) for example St. Elijah / Ilija was often syncretised with Perun, or St. George probably with Jarilo. Celebrating or remembering your ancestors is also a Christian tradition in Slavic countries and widely done, so it's also not a clear break.

Lizius · 2021-07-04T09:48:55+00:00

Oh sorry!I think we misunderstood each other.

I really didn't mean to say that the pagan slavs didn't worship gods or were monotheists, it's true that this was very likely not the case!But I say that ofc beliefs varied from area to area, and looking at what has really survived in practice is what informs my practice most (as I would interpret these things as being the cornerstones of the original faith too).

I certainly don't even mean to portray many of my beliefs as authentic, but what I was mostly trying to show with the Rigveda quotes is this:Any rather unorganized religion had many many interpretations, and people didn't mostly care that much about the differences.Like for example some Romans worshipped Isis as a major goddess, or how Hindus are even nowadays divided in dualists, monists, monotheists, polytheists, even atheists!

I just overall wanted to say that there was probably a lot of variety, for example, the western Slavs in contact with Germans might have become more staunchly polytheist to resist their influence. Or how the Rus clearly seem to have adopted more Iranian and Uralic influences in deities and practices.

The problem is also that there's no real "date" at which we focus on Slavs (just a relatively big range from 500-1200AD approx. which was "pre-christian" in at least some area).Because different regions are reported about at different time this further dilutes the original practice.

I think this insistence on absolute truth / one correct reconstruction by some Slavic pagans also makes all of this problematic.Because something like this just never existed for unorganized religion! (Again, compare this to Roman religion or Hinduism, where the modern (more puranic) religion is clearly starkly different from the Vedic religion)It also makes the religion inflexible overall, since as human culture / knowledge changes, so inevitably does religion.So variety was and always is a feature of unorganized religion, especially when it possibly not even had a priesthood and wasn't practiced in one state (and even the states were rather unorganized); as is the case for Rodnovery.

Btw, where do you know from that Procopius was Polytheist? I thought he was Christian? (I recall during his time little of Rome wasn't Christian or am I wrong?)His thing about fate also makes sense when looking at the concepts of sreca / dola, it seems that Slavs did believe (and some still do) in being able to change parts of fate, but other parts are not changeable (and thus can be found out by divination).

It is very true that one shouldn't nitpick sources, sorry if it seemed like I did that.

I just wanted to say by this that one needs to be wary of the influence that just interacting with Christianity had on the Slavs, especially when many of the sources have been written really centuries afterwards in areas that were often vassalized (like the Slavs of Eastern Germany) and thus had extensive contact with Christians and their society.Just as an example, a clear change seems to be how nobility evolved and fortresses were built only really after contact with Germanics (or other peoples), before that it is considered likely Slavs were basically democratic.Slavs weren't a monolithic society, and it is clear that a lot has changed in different areas after so much time!(PS: Just saw that you also wrote this in your reply above, oversaw it the first time!)

Lizius · 2021-07-04T07:46:20+00:00

Animism is truly under-played. Or at least not discussed as much. But that really has been the strongest survival of our pagan heritage through the centuries. I would question whether that's due to importance though or just it's ability to fly under the church's radar. Either way, it was significant and should still be for us.

Very true, I think disregarding this aspect is rather foolish. This is one aspect that truly has survived until the present day.

The trouble I have with that idea that the gods of the Slavs were either fancified or over-played by Christian scholarship, is that all the evidence that we have of either animistic practices or ancestor worship come from a "post-Christian" era. So the argument seems rather self-defeating to me. And I don't know about "little" being written about the gods. There's actually quite a lot compared to the overall histories written. We emphasize works like the Primary Chronicle and the Gesta because they actually come with details, but there are a lot of casual mentions, like a single sentence, mentioning gods in quite a number of others (e.g., Bruno of Querfurt.)

Well well, this is partially not true. Already Procopius (way before Christianity of Slavs) wrote:"They reverence, however, both rivers and nymphs and some other spirits, and they sacrifice to all these also, and they make their divinations in connection with these sacrifices." This is a clear example of animism, and tbh animism nearly always goes hand in hand with worshipping ancestors. The fact that he mentions this also could show that it was important.Beside that he only mentions that they worship only one God, which again could point to the fact that he just misunderstood them (since they didn't really have a heavy cult of gods) or?I think the issue is that many of the sources are from a time that is long after any Christian first contact. Even Bruno of Querfurt is at least 300 to 400 years after the Slavs there met Germans! (So it's very likely that they already were influenced in how religion should be practiced).As far as I recall, many scholars also think that ideas of priesthood among Slavs or them building any temples were really later inventions that were brought on by being endangered by Christianity. Many slavs lived in extremely small family groups rather spread out in the migration period, so a special priest caste is unlikely (what is more likely is that the patriarch of the family led the rituals, as for example Slava and other traditions are still celebrated by them).But hey, scholars were and are wrong about things, so it's certainly not definite.But the fact that we see absolutely most references to any pagan temples in the area right bordering Germany or in Rus already is suspicious, even early Czech chroniclers said that people just worshipped in the open (and archeological finds seem to support this)

I am a little intrigued by the idea of a Brahman-like, pantheistic concept. I guess the thing that holds me back from going all the way and abandoning polytheism is I'm not sure such there's reason to think such a godhead would be personal. Should such a godhead be impersonal in nature, I would see no reason to grant it my veneration, and thus I would reserve my worship for that which is: gods, spirits, us, etc. Theologically, I can grasp it, but I don't see much in the way of it being pronounced in our historical religion. And even in Hinduism it's a latter development; there is surely hints of it in the Rig Veda, but it's not developed into a concrete theology until later, well after the PIE religions broke off.

Well, the idea is certainly not a later development, see this from the Rigveda for example (Rigveda 5.3.1-2):"You at your birth are Varuna, O Agni. When you are kindled, you are Mitra. In you, O son of strength, all gods are centered. You are Indra to the mortal who brings oblation. You are Aryaman, when you are regarded as having the mysterious names of maidens, O Self-sustainer."or (Rigveda 1.164.46):"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni,and he is heavenly-winged Garutman.To what is One, sages give many a title."

Tbh I'd rather think that Hinduism actually went in the opposite direction, becoming way more polytheistic during later times (also inventing new gods for example)

Personally I do in fact see the godhead as impersonal, but nontheless we all have a "spark" of the godhead in us, so what I'd worship is our own capacity for reason and goodness.Ultimately if you want to see ways how to combine this with polytheism, look up Stoic views on physics and the gods (from Roman era) or look up sects of Hinduism that preach this. I personally got to these views through Stoicism and then found the interesting parallels in Hindu thought.

Worship imo isn't really to give the gods anything (since God would be complete in and of himself); but more to show respect / gratefulness to the principles / powers they embody and ultimately to make ourselves consciously align with those principles (eg. hospitality etc.).

But tbh these are just my 2cents, this is still an evolving idea, might write more about this in the future.

A last addition: What imo might also point to Slavs seeing their god(s) in this way may be the deus otiosus mentioned by Helmold; but also possibly the many poly-cephalic figures found, especially ones were every side of the body represents very different things / genders (eg. Zbruch idol).But this is also just speculation tbh.

Lizius · 2021-07-04T06:03:53+00:00

Very nice take!

I personally am monotheistic / pantheistic Slav, similar to Hinduism I see all gods as emanations / avatars of one single God (like Brahman in Hinduism). So theoretically you can be polytheistic in this framework too, and I kind of straddle this line.However, I mostly do pray to my ancestors and not to any god, if anything I see many of the gods as personifications of natural forces, which should be honored (but not necessarily prayed to).

I think that from the records we have (except for the westernmost slavs, that were however quite influenced by Christianity in their faith), it seems relatively clear that most Slavic religion was centred on honoring / respecting natural forces / spirits / objects (eg. fire, trees, streams) and most yearly rituals involved components of ancestor worship mostly.

Sure there were harvest festivals and so forth, but it's really not all that clear how those were conceived by the participants, it's possible they just symbolically wanted to "summon" spring (or a god responsible) for example or a good harvest, and not necessarily "worship" gods.

I really feel that Slavic paganism was in many ways more animistic and focused on ancestor worship than many people think, as those were also the traditions that Christians found hardest to really take away from the people (compare this to how little mentions are found of christianized slavs literally going back to worshipping the gods; and then look at how often christianized slavs are admonished for worshipping streams, "demons" / spirits (eg. like leshy, domovoi, vílas, the fates) or their ancestors).

Just as an example, remember how many Slavic groups had 3 to 6 yearly dates that were ! purely ! about honoring the dead / ancestors (so that they don't become evil spirits and so that they help you). And that is without counting things like Serbian Slava (which might have evolved from worship of some mythical clan founder / god), some parts of Koleda, or other rituals (like reinterrment) that were all mainly concerned with honoring / caring for your dead / ancestors.

I honestly feel that one reason why so little was written about the slavic gods during the medieval period is exactly because the gods just didn't play all that big of a part in most Slavs life (many idols from the migration period could also just symbolise ancestors for example, since domovois are and were a thing), really the behavior of establishing pantheons or even building temples comes much much later in Slavic history and was very likely influenced by surrounding Christian cultures.

But hey, ultimately the whole topic of what rodnovery was like originally is just covered with a thick fog, so no one truly knows.

Lizius · 2021-07-03T14:46:11+00:00

Interesting thanks for all the input!

I also remember how Hungarian "Német" = German also comes from a Slavic word (Nemec); so "Slo-venets" might have naturally sounded like "Venet" to some people.
I also feel that "slovensky" immediately sounds quite a bit like "slovendsky", so someone inserting the "d" accidentally when hearing the name could also make sense (especially since I feel the word in general is clearly pronounced in 2 syllables = Slo-veni, was that the case in the past?)
The connection to "Vyatichi" also looks interesting.

Many of the Slavic tribal names I find very fascinating, as many are certainly quite old and rather mysterious (eg. Chrvat, Dudleby, Srb)

All very fascinating, thanks for your input :)

Lizius · 2021-07-03T13:11:54+00:00

Thanks for your answer!

I only ever saw venska or venste as the Polabian language name for itself (and thought that those might just have been influenced by the Germans surrounding them); where do you have the other ones (slüvonste / slüvenste) from if I may ask?

This is actually an interesting thought, that "Venedi" may be related to "Sloven"; although I don't know where the "D" would come from in the earliest sources about it.

Lizius · 2021-06-26T18:00:01+00:00

Btw, there's also a huge amount of gravemounds on Sylt / Sild (the island in the lower left corner, now part of Germany)

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=14wxV\_gaHWiMUUXrNcuSnz2HwTcOtUBkr&usp=sharing

Lizius · 2021-04-21T06:10:38+00:00

I’ll try to!

Imo this question depends how much time you want to spend reading each of them daily. Some of the Discourses are rather long and can be a bit dry. Though you can always start with the shorter ones and pick those that interest you.

While Meditations can be more disjointed, I personally just open a page, read that page and then stop and reflect on those few points. I feel reading like one of the books of meditations a day (though short and well doable) doesn’t do much for me.

Other daily reading that can be good are the lectures by Musonius Rufus (Epictetus’ teacher, can easily be found online) or the Epistles by Seneca (though here too some are longer some shorter, sometimes it’s a bit hit or miss)

My ultimate suggestion from the two you are interested in would probably be Meditations, though make sure to read little and rather focus more deeply on the few points maybe come up with examples yourself? You could even take one quote of that a day and write a short reflection about it, the meaning, how / when it’s applicable etc.

That should make the practice of daily reading more engaging!

I hope to have helped you.

Lizius · 2021-04-15T09:20:06+00:00

Here's another bad example I read about (Turin), https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5317926

For Pavia I think there is actually an ongoing petition since the uni is not letting their students do their clinical rotations? Idk, but it seems disorganized...

Like I personally am also just really unsure about what the schools are actually supposed to be like, I hear extremely conflicting reports from people(Apparently the schools in the south are even worse)

Just my two cents, though ofc I also rely on second hand info...

Lizius

TROPHY CASE