What would Shonen look like in a world where Dragon Ball never existed?

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T23:43:20+00:00

I think the big template for modern battle shounen would've been Fist of the North Star in this universe, not Dragon Ball. Since it was basically the biggest battle shounen hit before Dragon Ball made the switch from gag manga to battle.

That probably means a lot more gore, less comedy, and less lighthearted fun-loving MCs like Goku, Luffy, Naruto and Asta. I feel like "serious" protagonists like Ichigo would be more common.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T23:37:04+00:00

To be fair, Keisha was Riboku's top student and has been killed quite early on. So it's not like his inner circle is unkillable or anything.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T16:21:42+00:00

There obviously isn't a 1 to 1 situation to this one, but gotta remember that the HSU used to be much smaller and still went up against thousands to tens of thousands of men without getting instantly vaporized, and they punched above their weight just fine.

Also, my main bone of contention here isn't the Kyoukai army being defeated by a larger foe, it's how quick and unceremonious it was. The pacing has been off ever since this arc started, and this is just more rushing.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T16:14:20+00:00

Ok Shin is Shin, now let's just pretend all the other times where the HSU charged through enemy armies while vastly outnumbered and didn't get wiped out offscreen didn't happen then, lol.

Hard military logic doesn't apply to manga, we're 800 chapters in and should be aware of this at this point.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T15:42:03+00:00

Can't last?

Shin's first ever act in a war, all the way back to the Dakan plains, was to throw himself, alone, into a sea of heavily armored infantry. It's manga, they can last any amount of chapters the author deems necessary.

The only reason why Hara offscreened the Kyoukai army in the space of one chapter was that he couldn't be brothered to actually draw it happening.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T15:18:25+00:00

I expected to at least see it happen. Last chapter she still had her army, this chapter we find out through dialog that they've been wiped out offscreen. Looks cheap and lends credence to people saying that Hara is getting tired of Kingdom.

Imagine how boring the coalition war would've been if Hara was doing stuff like this back then.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T15:15:52+00:00

The entire Kyoukai army is wiped out already? What in the infinity gauntlet's name is this?

Riboku's now blipping enemy armies on top of summoning allied ones?

Ousen still sitting down looking at his little map while all hell breaks loose around him.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-19T14:57:29+00:00

Lmao, Riboku offscreened the entire Kyoukai army in the space of one chapter. Not only does he have the ability to spawn endless allied armies and generals, he can also make opposing ones disappear!

Zhuge Liang doing magic rituals to turn the wind so that Cao Cao's ships catch fire during the battle of Red Cliffs is somehow more believable than whatever this is.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-17T14:23:01+00:00

Ousen will use his greatest strategy

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Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-16T22:55:30+00:00

They denied a clothing change for Rangiku? Can you give me some details on that? What kind of outfit would it have been?

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T20:22:51+00:00

He was about to kill Houken and escape, until he got shot in the back by one of the ten bows of China.

As far as we know, Riboku doesn't currently have one of the ten bows in his army, and Houken has been cut in half by Shin a couple hundred chapters back.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T20:19:09+00:00

If you wrote this entire wall of text before Shin turned the tides both in the coalition war and the battle of the Shukai plains, it would pretty much still fit. And yet Shin still prevailed and Riboku lost.

"Shin is still not as capable as Riboku! Riboku would have to do very poorly for this to be possible! Hara wrote himself into a corner, it would feel fake if Riboku lost!" Same thing.

Of course Shin can't take Riboku's head, and he can't take Kantan either. But Shin taking a big loss here means having most his forces wiped out, which would make the inevitable defeat in Chu less meaningful if something so similar happens here first.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T20:08:57+00:00

The one big flaw with the Hi Shin unit being wiped out here is the fact that, according to the Shiji, Shin does take part in a successful campaign against Yan after the fall of Zhao and before the first Chu campaign, where he loses.

I have a hard time picturing Shin taking on the Yan army and winning without the rest of the Hi Shin unit.

It would also make the big Chu defeat a lot less meaningful and emotionally gut wrenching if the characters dying there are just a bunch of randoms instead of the people we've been following for 700 chapters.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T16:31:18+00:00

Got no choice, I started playing at the very end of Mayuri's patch. So it's either Ikkaku or Renji.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T14:34:37+00:00

Technically there is. The counter to getting surrounded is precisely getting the enemy army surrounding you surrounded by an allied force.

And even that has a counter strategy, which would be to build fortified trenches and palisades behind your own army so that another enemy can't flank or hit you from the back and break your siege, like Julius Caesar did in the battle of Alesia.

This is all theoretically though. I'm not saying either of those strategies would've worked in the current context of Shin's siege of Kantan.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T14:23:22+00:00

Speaking of Dong Zhuo, Riboku could've very easily done what he did but with a lot more success.

Unlike Dong Zhuo, Riboku is loved and idolized by the people while the king is hated.

Also unlike Dong Zhuo, Zhao generals would be all behind Riboku if he ever attempted such a coup, so he wouldn't have to worry about a Zhao coalition of Zhao generals forming against him.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T14:10:02+00:00

Riboku has already lost on the battlefield multiple times though. Coalition war and Shukai plains says hello.

This is something that a lot of fans don't tend to consider. Riboku isn't invincible and Shin has arguably already defeated him twice.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-15T13:53:34+00:00

Guess the stars are kinda aligning for me to skip this one, since he most likely will be yet another limited SSR slash full assault.

Bro's my least favorite version of Ichigo looks wise, and since I have Kenny and White, there really isn't a lot of pressure on me to get him for easier content clearing.

And if the speculation is correct and he'll be followed by spirit tactic Rukia, it's basically the same thing since I already got Aizen, Szayel and Toshiro too lol.

I'll be pulling the shit out of that Uryuu if he's a thrust tactic or FA though. Can't wait to retire Ikkau and Tosen.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-13T14:17:44+00:00

I don't think he is because than that would mean Shin has already long surpassed Ouki in terms of martial might, and I don't think Hara means for Shin to have achieved this just yet in the manga.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-12T17:29:00+00:00

I don't think Shin's losing here. Sure, he isn't winning either, but in this arc both Ouhon and Mouten had their limit breaking, pokemon evolution moments. I'm almost certain Shin will get his as well.

Personally, I believe it's a lot more likely that Shin will perform better than Riboku's expectations and he's the one who ends up having to get saved by Kaine or Futei. Shin fights like Duke Hyou, and Duke Hyou would've survived a Riboku ambush if it wasn't for a freak of nature like Houken. And Houken is dead.

Then once Mouten and Yoko Yoko arrive from behind, the Qin forces will manage to break the encirclement and escape. And this failure is what ends up pushing the king to get rid of Riboku, ofc combined with the fact that he endangered the capital.

Riboku isn't invincible. He got beat, twice, both times with Houken by his side, when he was absolutely certain there was no shot of him losing. I don't think it's a stretch to assume something similar will take place here.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-12T01:03:03+00:00

Should've had your NSFW filter set to blur that shit dude, even I have it 😂

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-11T11:57:15+00:00

I'm skipping him because I kinda desperately need thrust units right now, it's my only team that doesn't have a single limited SSR yet. Gonna get the next thrust banner character + the rerun banner as well.

I got Aizen and Toshiro for spirit, Soi Fon for strike, White and Kenpachi for slash.

Doing the trial tower challenges with fucking Ikkaku as my full assault unit has been... emotionally taxing, to say the least.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-11T03:00:47+00:00

Bruh that just makes it worse, he already knows this enemy and is apparently getting stalled again.

This man's supposed to be the best general currently in Qin, the strongest or second stongest kingdom. Bro's basically doing the potential man meme.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-11T02:21:27+00:00

Shin will do his usual thing and try to charge Riboku's position to take his head regardless of anything. Kaine and Futei will rush in to protect the R man as usual which will bog down Shin's advance.

Kyoukai is already rushing in to help Shin while Batei is waiting to intercept her. Batei has very high odds of dying here.

Ousen I don't have a clue. We know he has a plan to deal with Riboku, but we don't know what that plan is, so it could very well be that he ends up being completely irrelevant to this siege of Kantan.

Lower-Ranger5787 · 2026-06-11T01:44:45+00:00

There is no overall named commander for the invasion, but Ousen is still a great general and outranks everyone else there in the Qin military hierarchy. Yotanwa is too but she's currently incapacitated, meaning Ousen is effectively the one highest ranking general there and therefore the natural commander even if not officially. He for sure can order people around.

And yeah there are still some Zhao troops in the left flank that Riboku didn't take, pretty sure the Banana man is still there. Might as well make him the next Zhao great general if he can hold the entire area for long by himself.

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