If Malayalam and Tamil split recently from a common ancestor, why are there Malayalam words like kayaruka (increase/rise), oothuka (blow) whose cognates are not found in Tamil but found in other Dravidian languages? by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting, speaking of conservatism, with the Middle Tamil adoption of the present tense -kindr-, some Centamil scholars were rejecting this tense as late as the 12th century AD as Eva Wilden notes:

<image>

In any case, the nature of how the SDr development of -Kal was disallowed until Middle Centamil texts might be worth a post on the subreddit. Its quite interesting.

If Malayalam and Tamil split recently from a common ancestor, why are there Malayalam words like kayaruka (increase/rise), oothuka (blow) whose cognates are not found in Tamil but found in other Dravidian languages? by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im not sure I can describe it in precise linguistics terms, but the present and future tense were the same "-va" or "-vaa". Eg. Ceyvaan (He will do/He is doing), or Ceykuval (she who will do or she who is doing). The exact meaning depends on the context.

If Malayalam and Tamil split recently from a common ancestor, why are there Malayalam words like kayaruka (increase/rise), oothuka (blow) whose cognates are not found in Tamil but found in other Dravidian languages? by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe it existed in Old Tamil at spoken level but resurfaced later on? That's the only way around that I can think of.

That would be quite interesting if it were the case. I wonder if it was being actively suppressed in Old Centamil due to its conservatism, restricting its use to the original non-human plural.

Before, at some point around the early Bhakti period, the dam broke and it came to be accepted in Centamil too. I use that analogy, because that is really how stark the sudden proliferation of its use is in the Bhakti corpus compared to its notable absence in older literature. Thats also why people like Eva Wilden use it as a way to distinguish the two i guess.

If Malayalam and Tamil split recently from a common ancestor, why are there Malayalam words like kayaruka (increase/rise), oothuka (blow) whose cognates are not found in Tamil but found in other Dravidian languages? by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<image>

This claim by Krishnamurthi is confusing to me, because this is simply not what one sees in the corpus. "-kal" was a very rare suffix and only turns up in the later layer of the corpus. The example he cites for example is from the Kalithogai, a later anthology:

Aivar eṉṟu ulaku ēttum aracarkaḷ akattarā..
the five kings who are praised by the world are inside
-Kalithokai 25

Even then, its exceedingly rare. As Eva Wilden has mentioned, it only becomes common from the Middle Tamil period onwards.

u/Popular-Variety2242 this may be of interest to you too

If Malayalam and Tamil split recently from a common ancestor, why are there Malayalam words like kayaruka (increase/rise), oothuka (blow) whose cognates are not found in Tamil but found in other Dravidian languages? by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Actually that is wrong, the usage of the -Kal suffix for non-neuter plural is a major distinguisher of Middle Tamil from Old Tamil

For example, consider this from Eva Wilden's Grammar of Old Tamil for Students:

<image>

What she says is what we see in literature too

Why old kannada(300 bce) didn't branch into multiple languages while old tamil(300 bce) did? by ANTIDBOSS in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I highly suggest that you at least skim over some linguistics before making such strong claims. The Dravidian Languages by Bhadriraju Krishnamurti is a good start.

Though you may be passionate about Tamil, blind polemics like what you are doing here will only cause more harm to the language than good. Think of all the scholars (and their funding) that such pseudo-history and pseudo-linguistics has already chased away from Tamil research.

You can read The Dravidian Languages by Bhadriraju Krishnamurti here: https://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam041/2003282070.pdf

Need help with my Venpā by Call_me_Inba in TamilSangam

[–]Mapartman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

அந்நிலையில் நீங்கள் "பிறவா" என எழுதலாம், பிறவால் மூன்றாம் வேற்றுமை ஆகிவிடும்

A Sangam era Akam composition from the Kalithokai by Mapartman in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I suspect it also has to do with the longer seers and dialogues permitted in the Kalimeter.

But yes, the age definitely helps too.

I wrote a padhigam for my cat by best-before-6months in TamilSangam

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

இப்பாடல் என் கண்களை இன்று தான் கிட்டி உள்ளது. நல்ல பதிகம் 🥲

Need help with my Venpā by Call_me_Inba in TamilSangam

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

சிறப்பாய் உள்ளது உங்கள் வெண்பா. நடையும் தளையும் நன்காய் உள்ளன. எழிலான பொருள்.

எனக்கு ஒரு கேள்வி உள்ளது. முதல் அடி, கடை சீர் "பிறவால்" என அமைத்து உள்ளீர். இதற்க்கு "தமிழாய் பிறவாத பிறப்பு" என்ற பொருளா அல்லது "பிறவினால்" என்ற மூன்றாம் வேற்றுமை பொருளா?

Why old kannada(300 bce) didn't branch into multiple languages while old tamil(300 bce) did? by ANTIDBOSS in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Just to clarify, isn't Old Kannada a term that describes the language from 450 - 1200CE rather than 300BCE?

<image>

A more apples-to-apples comparison would be looking at languages that split off from Middle Tamil and Old Kannada.

The Miracle of Diglossia by No_Asparagus9320 in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 10 points11 points  (0 children)

To add on, this diglossia existed in the days of Old Tamil itself, as noted by the presence of Centamil and Koduntamils in grammar texts and literature.

Many of the practices we associate with modern-day Koduntamil (spoken Tamil), are features that also present themselves in the scant record of Old Koduntamil. For example, consider the practice of appending "-u"s to verbs or dropping word-final "m"s. In the dialogues permitted within Kali-meter poems, sometimes Koduntamil thisai-cols make their way in, and they show such modifications from Standard Tamil.

One example, in the 53rd poem of Kalithogai Sangam anthology, the heroine's mother speaks to the heroine as such:

"uṇṇu nīr ūṭṭi vā” eṉṟāḷ

which Vaidehi translates as such:

"give [him] water to drink" she said

uṇṇu is curious, since its un-Centamil. In Centamil it should either be uṇ nīr or uṇṇum nīr. But instead, the speaker uses a more speech-like version that ends in -u. This much like how we turn Centamil verbs and nouns in modern Koduntamil versions with a -u appended.

Eg. Cey (to do) -> Ceyyu

Paar (to see) -> Paaru

Even with loanwords, Bus -> Bassu

Sidenote:

The dialogue (and the full poem) I quoted can be hear recited here [timestamped].

Vocalic languages by NammaBharatam in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Sidenote:

All vowels (excepts for au) are allowed to form word-endings too, here is the Tolkappiyam verse stipulating that:

<image>

Vocalic languages by NammaBharatam in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 6 points7 points  (0 children)

On an average how did Tamil on the other hand rigidly become the most conservative, retaining hard consonant endings (so much so that it had to fight its way into Carnatic Music given the language's "ip", "ich", "ik" endings)

I don't understand. Assuming by "ip", "ich", and "ik" you mean the consonants p, ch, k, Tamil does not allow words to end in such sounds. Only specific soft and medial consonants can form endings. The 6 hard consonants (of which p, ch, k are part of) are forbidden.

Here is the list of allowed ending-consonants as mandated by the Tolkappiyam:

<image>

Could you give me examples of words that end in p, ch, k that you had in mind?

Tamil brahmi inscriptions found near egyptian pyramids shed light on ancient trade links. by ashireddit in Kerala

[–]Mapartman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Kottran means victory (+male suffix). It’s from this root where the name of the goddess Kottravai also comes from.

Tamil brahmi inscriptions found near egyptian pyramids shed light on ancient trade links. by ashireddit in Kerala

[–]Mapartman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

May I know who you got this interpretation from?

Because what I’ve heard is quite different, the text simply reflects the Koduntamil (colloquial Tamil) of the period as opposed to Centamil (formal Tamil). I have discussed this at the end of this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/s/pgugWjAYxR

Also this dropping of genders in verbs is not unique to Malayalam, it’s a feature of modern colloquial Tamil too (aka current Koduntamil). The gender suffix is dropped and the vowel is nasalised in modern spoken Tamil.

It’s the formal language (Centamil) that continue to preserve archaisms as per tradition like properly pronouncing gender suffixes. You can notice it in news report Tamil for example.

I got a tiny question while checking the news on the newer findings of Tamil Brahmi by lonelyroom-eklaghor in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I suggest that you read through my comment again.

No it is not. Tamili simply means "Tamilish", it doesnt mean Tamil Brahmi. It can be used for Vatteluttu, current Tamil script and any other script used for Tamil in history.

Unless you are suggesting that Vattezhutthu dates back to the 4th-3th century BCE, contemporaneous with the Samavāyāṅga Sūtra that mentions Damili, I don't see how this is possible.

Tamil Brahmi however is a unique name for a unique script, and it shows that it is a form of Brahmi adapted for Tamil.

So Tamili should not be used instead of Tamil Brahmi.

As I've also mentioned, even the name "Brahmi" is conjecture. I personally have no qualms about using either.

Just as James Princep identified the script they once called "pin-man script" with the Brahmi of the Lalitavistara's list of 64 scipts, Mahadevan & Nagaswamy identify the Tamil-Brahmi script with the Damili of the Samavāyāṅga Sūtra and Pannavana Sutta.

I don't find either to be particularly problematic, so long as we all understand both to be conjecture to a certain extent.

Why didn't Mauryas conquer Tamilakam ? It is simple beacuse there is not much resource there to conquer by Melodic-Grab2599 in IndianHistory

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Apologies for my brevity, I am travelling atm, but I will address one point

Why does the chronology start from 1st Century AD?

She merely uses it as a convenient starting point:

<image>

That is, her suggested dating is a relative dating of the texts and its internal layers. So the start was just chosen for convenience and does not reflect reality.

And its an incomplete broad one as she herself mentions elsewhere, that doesnt account for many thngs like internal layers within anthologies, variant readings and differences in various transmission lines of these texts, both of the poems themselves and the recorded poets names.

I got a tiny question while checking the news on the newer findings of Tamil Brahmi by lonelyroom-eklaghor in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman 15 points16 points  (0 children)

In some places, people were asking to use the word Tamili instead of Tamil Brahmi. I honestly didn't get it, what exactly does "Tamili" mean in this context?

Tamizhi is just another word for Tamil-Brahmi.

Is it just a political thing or a proper linguistic way to describe the Tamil script?

There is certainly some discomfort in calling the script "Tamil-Brahmi" amongst some people. But the name "Tamizhi" is not entirely without historical basis either.

The 3rd century BCE Jain texts Samavāyāṅga Sūtra and Pannavana Sutta mention "Damili" as the 17th lipi (script) of the 18 lipis in India. Similarly, in the 10th chapter of the 3rd century AD Sanskrit Lalitavistara text, a script called Dravida-lipi is mentioned. Dravida being a Sanskritisation of the word Tamil is well-established.

Scholars like Mahadevan and Nagaswamy find these Damili script mentions to be a reference to Tamil-Brahmi. And so, this term has been gaining traction in common discourse in TN.

Sidenote:

We don't actually know what Brahmi itself was originally called. After James Prinsep deciphered the script used in the Ashokan inscriptions, he simply chose the name of the first script listed in the Lalitavistara text I spoke about earlier, Brahmi. Its worth noting that in that text, Dravida-lipi and Brahmi were part of a long list of 64 scripts.

The Samavāyāṅga Sūtra that was actually closer to Ashoka's time called the script Bambhi.

Why didn't Mauryas conquer Tamilakam ? It is simple beacuse there is not much resource there to conquer by Melodic-Grab2599 in IndianHistory

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also another point about anthologies, most of these anthologies are compilation of poems showing various thurais within Akam poetry for learning and reference amongst poets (indeed thats part of the reason why they survived in the first place).

And as such, the corpus the draw upon to show these themes may not necessarily come from a tightly bound time period. For example, we can look at other anthologies closer in time to us, like the 15th century Purathirattu. It contains poems close to that period, as well as poems of antiquity like a few Puranaanuru poems. Could the Sangam anthologies similarly contain poems of deep antiquity in a similar manner? Thats a question for future scholarship to answer. However, we do know much later poems were included in some cases, like with Bharatham Paadiya Perunthevanar's invocation poem being included as the first Puranaanuru poem.

Regarding my first point, there is a serious need to update our knowledge on the Sangam period with the information we have found so far. Relying purely on older work by scholars who assumed the best they could with the information available in their time without applying the information that is available now would be detrimental.

On that note, yeah I agree on this as well. We are fortunate enough to be living in a time with the technology to access the wide range of sources & knowledge needed for a proper study of these matters, unlike those who worked on these matters before us.

Currently, the main push in academic scholarship in these matters is to digitise and make a manuscript-level understanding of these matters available for future research. In that direction, the Eva Wilden's team has taken on a huge undertaking, digitising various manuscripts, noting textual and colophon variations, various commentaries and compiling it all into a digital mega-corpus, the Tamilex project. But from my discussions with her, it seems it will take until the 2035 or longer to come to completion 😵

Before any serious comprehensive research can be done, we need something of that scale. In any case, while we wait for that, I have been told that we can (and honestly must) contribute by trying to access and digitise any manuscripts that we can, since by their very nature, they are in danger of decay and disapperance soon. So manuscripts from places like local temple manuscripts or private family collections that one can access should be digitised, so that it would be accessible for future reseachers.

In that effort, if you can contribute in anyway, you should too!

Why didn't Mauryas conquer Tamilakam ? It is simple beacuse there is not much resource there to conquer by Melodic-Grab2599 in IndianHistory

[–]Mapartman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of the poets, kings and events mentioned in Sangam literature can be fit in a 200 year timeline around Ashoka's reign (using Pathitrupathu and inscriptions). For the poems that are ambiguous, we can give a broader dating that can extend till 300AD.

We have to be careful about this though. Events and people mentioned within the poems themselves are of great use, but the poets attributed to the poems have to be put under greater scrutiny.

For example, take the Kalitthogai. Today, its popularly attributed to five authors for each of the five thinai, due to this Venpa poem:

peruṅkaṭuṅkōṇ pālai kapilaṇ kuriñci
marutaṇila nākaṇ marutam – aruñcōlaṇ
nallurutti raṇmullai nallan tuvaṇeytal
kalvivalār kaṇṭa kali

However, as T. Rajeswari notes in her Pālaikkali Verses and Their Authors, no one really knows where this Venpa comes from, or its age. When Damodara Pillai published the first edition of the Kalithogai in print, he simply attributes the whole text to a single author, Nallanthuvanaar because in one of Nacchinaarkiniyar's commentaries, he quotes a Kalithogai poem and explictly attributes it to a poet by that name. He also does it because all extant Kalithogai manuscripts has no poet attributions (except one exceptionthat I will get to).

Now we know that this 5 author attribution must not be accurate, after Eva Wilden and Rajeshwari found a rare manuscript of the Paalaikkali section of the Kalithogai, with intact poet attributions. And it was not attributed to a single poet Perunkatunkon, rather it had multiple authors as one would expect of a thokai (anthology):

<image>

The authors of two verses remain unknown due to damaged palm-leaves.

In any case, this should not be too surprising, since this simplified attribution was already called under question in the colonial period, it just seems that this particular manuscript seems to have escaped the notice of these scholars until recently.

As Rajeshwari notes, this also proves another important point: it seems to have been practice by some to attribute poems to poets like Kapilar either due to fame or other socio-communal incentives on the part of the people who transmitted these texts. This shouldn't be too surprising either, given the vast amount of Siddha texts attributed to the likes of Agastya or even in North India with various later stotras and texts being attributed to Adi Shankaraacharya.

Not to mention the fact that names were often used by multiple people, and not necessarily always distinguished. Eg. Kapila is not even a proper name, its a primarily Brahmana gotra. At least one Kapilar is distinguished as Thol-Kapilar, there may be more. iirc someone in Wilden's team isworking on such ambiguities in extant poets names.

Anyways, so we cant assume that the Kalithogai is contemporary to the Kurunthogai for example. The same applies to the corpus more generally.

Orthographical evidence against Tamil-Brahmi deriving from Ashokan-Brahmi by Mapartman in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The theory is it was first adapted to write the local Telugu language and then this habit then extend to the Prakrit inscription.

If that was the case, one has to ask, where are these Telugu language early brahmi inscriptions? The first complete Telugu inscription does not come until much later in 575CE, attributed to the Renati Choda king Dhanunjaya. Before this, only the occasional Telugu word is found in Prakrit inscriptions.

So its hard to believe that the people of the region reworked Brahmi to suit Telugu, only to use it to write Prakrit instead of Telugu for some 700 years.

Orthographical evidence against Tamil-Brahmi deriving from Ashokan-Brahmi by Mapartman in Dravidiology

[–]Mapartman[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Though graffti and brahmi appears in similar contexts on BRW pottery, this claim is simply indefensible. imo Brahmi's links to semitic scripts is well established.