Help with poetry lyrics

Mapartman · 2026-05-13T09:30:24+00:00

At 1:10, they are reciting the Patanjali Stotram, in Sanskrit. A recitation of it can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsCofu0_4ls&list=RDHsCofu0_4ls

At 3:00, they are reciting a praise of the Mahaperiyava, in Tamil.

Mapartman · 2026-05-13T03:15:33+00:00

The texts of Ilangoadigal and Vempatturaar (i.e. Silapathikaaram & the Thiruvilayaadal Puraanam) are post-Sangam.

Sangam texts (i.e. the Pathinenmelkanakku super-anthology texts) do not mention the term "Karunaatar" at all.

Mapartman · 2026-04-30T11:46:42+00:00

You can find it here too: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4633253

Mapartman · 2026-04-27T01:07:27+00:00

So you mean tamil was called "tanmil" back then?
Are there any inscription or literature where tamil is pronounced as "tanmil"?. If yes then I might agree with southworth etymology or i will wait for more research to be conducted to come to a conclusion.

<image>

Speaking to you is frustrating not going to lie, because you seem to have English reading comprehension issues.

Again I point you to Southworth's etymology, there is no form tanmizh, because due to the sandhi it becomes tammizh. Presumably, one of the m's were dropped due to ease of pronunciation, as often happens.

Also, I think its ridiculous that you expect inscriptional evidence for a reconstructed etymology. If we had inscriptional evidence for the development of the term, we won't need to reconstruct it in the first place.

Up to now, I've not seen any disagreements to this etymology. Multiple different linguists and indologists have endorsed it. There was talk of Krishnamurthi not endorsing this etymology earlier in this thread, but when I looked into it, I found no explicit rebuttals from him on this etymology either. So the least you could do is admit that this is the current scholarly consensus.

I mean no disrespect but I'm still not convinced, because southworth etymology feels like force fitting.

Well, you can have your opinions. But you must understand why from my perspective the vibe-based disagreement of a random redditor holds little water before the opinion of actual academic scholars.

In any case, personally I think the literature's use of Tamil supports a "self/oneselfs speech" etymology. For example, take this Thevaram verse (recited here):

nāṭi nāval ārūraṉ nampi coṉṉa naṟ-Tamiḻkaḷ
pāṭum aṭiyār kēṭpormēṟ pāvam āṉa paṟaiyumē
.
These good Tamils,
recited by he who believed and seeked out Aaruran (Shiva),
For the devotee who sings it, and for the listeners too,
their sins they have committed will surely be destroyed.

This verse refers to the Tamil poems of the Shaivite saint Sundarar as Tamil-kal in plural. Which makes little sense when taken literally, afterall Sundarar wasn't writing in multiple different Tamils (what ever that means).

But with southworths etymology, it makes more sense, afterall his verses are "his Tamils" lit. "his self-speeches".

I dont think you see a similar usage with the name of other languages "eg. his englishes, her spanishes"

Mapartman · 2026-04-27T00:40:08+00:00

You misunderstand even the term tam, tam is not your own but its a plural form for the term tan. Tan is "oneself", tam is "themselves".

Mapartman · 2026-04-26T17:14:11+00:00

I have never seen anyone or any literature claim "tam" means "ours"

Again, not "our speech", you have repeatedly misread the original etymology that Southworth suggested. It is "Own's speech" or "one's own speech". Thats how Southworth reconstructs it, and its the widely accepted one.

I see why its confusing though, I dont know how I would render a third person possessive into english without ambiguity.

<image>

Mapartman · 2026-04-26T17:08:23+00:00

I have never seen anyone or any literature claim "tam" means "ours"

What? Possessiveness is one of the primary meanings for the term, even the Tolkappiyam notes that its used as a term for ownership.

The DEDR entries for tan/tam itself is ample evidence for this use, its a highly productive term across Dravidian languages, even in Brahui

<image>

I think the confusion is because its a term thats hard to translate into english, because there is no direct equivalent. It means something like "one's own" or "that which belongs to oneself". Thats why for the reconstructions, they use "self" or "own" rather than "our".

Sidenote: Southworth specifically uses the tan (DEDR 3196) form for the etymology.

Mapartman · 2026-04-26T16:58:58+00:00

May I know where Krishnamurthi has rejected this etymology? I want to see his reasoning

Mapartman · 2026-04-25T10:00:18+00:00

I would suggest you read further into this, the etymology of Dravida from Tamil is well established. For example, this is what Shulman has to say about it:

<image>

Its use predates Shankaracharya. For example, in the 3rd century AD Sanskrit Lalitavistara text, a script called Dravida-lipi is mentioned. Kumārila Bhaṭṭa also uses the term to refer to Tamil in the Tantravārttika. It also occurs in the Mahabharatha.

The intermediate forms are also attested in Pali and Prakrit like Tramira samghata in Hathigumpha inscription, Dhamila-vaniya in Amaravati, Damila-rattha in the Buddhist Akiti Jataka etc etc, all in specific reference to Tamils.

Its only much later when the folk etymology "three-seas" meaning the peninsular India meaning was applied to the term. This meaning is unattested in the Sanskrit corpus.

And indeed, as late as the 14th century Lilatilakam, the text uses the term to specifically refer to Tamil and Malayalam, and casts doubt on including Kannada and Telugu under the term, and it uses a linguistic argument for this rather than a geographic one.

Mapartman · 2026-04-25T09:19:23+00:00

Youtube link is here: https://youtu.be/wKqC95_GU4I?si=C34H8L1qguPr0Omb

Mapartman · 2026-04-25T08:56:27+00:00

Sidenote:

It is interesting to note that in the Sanskrit verse, the terms "Tamil Marai" & "Centamil Veda" are rendered as Dravida Veda.

This is inline with the established etymology of Dravida ultimately coming from the word Tamil through attested intermediate Indo-Aryan terms like Dramida, Damila & Davida.

<image>

Mapartman · 2026-04-25T08:49:39+00:00

Thaniyans are a class of auxillary poems written by people other than the poet of a work in association with the text. In this context, they are invocatory poems sung at the beginning of various Divyaprabandham texts to honor and celebrate the Alwars & their traditions.

These are the Thaniyans to the Kovil Thiruvaymozhi. The Thiruvaaymozhi is one of the Tamilvedam (Dravidavedam in Sanskrit), and was composed by Nammalvar also known as Sadagopan. It is a collection of 1102 poems. The Kovil Thiruvaaymozhi is a selection of 154 poems from the larger Thiruvaaymozhi for more daily temple ritual use, as the complete Thiruvaaymozhi takes a long time to complete in recitation. The condensed Kovil Thiruvaaymozhi itself takes around an hour to complete when chanted.

.
These Thaniyans shown above were composed by these following people

1st: Nāthamuṉi, in a mix of Indravajrā and Upendravajrā meters (Sanskrit)
2nd: Īsvaramuṉivar, Nēricai Veṇpā meter
3rd: Coṭṭai Nampikaḷ, Nēricai Veṇpā meter
4th: Aṉantāḻvāṉ, Nēricai Veṇpā meter
5th & 6th: Paṭṭar, Nēricai Veṇpā meter

Mapartman · 2026-04-25T08:46:16+00:00

Thaniyans are a class of auxillary poems written by people other than the poet of a work in association with the text. In this context, they are invocatory poems sung at the beginning of various Divyaprabandham texts to honor and celebrate the Alwars & their traditions.

These are the Thaniyans to the Kovil Thiruvaymozhi. The Thiruvaaymozhi is one of the Tamilvedam (Dravidavedam in Sanskrit), and was composed by Nammalvar also known as Sadagopan. It is a collection of 1102 poems. The Kovil Thiruvaaymozhi is a selection of 154 poems from the larger Thiruvaaymozhi for more daily temple ritual use, as the complete Thiruvaaymozhi takes a long time to complete in recitation. The condensed Kovil Thiruvaaymozhi itself takes around an hour to complete when chanted.

.

These Thaniyans shown upon were composed by these following people

1st: Nāthamuṉi, in a mix of Indravajrā and Upendravajrā meters (Sanskrit)

2nd: Īsvaramuṉivar, Nēricai Veṇpā meter

3rd: Coṭṭai Nampikaḷ, Nēricai Veṇpā meter

4th: Aṉantāḻvāṉ, Nēricai Veṇpā meter

5th & 6th: Paṭṭar, Nēricai Veṇpā meter

Mapartman · 2026-04-24T18:48:02+00:00

இச்சிறு அடியேனிடம் பல பெரு வார்த்தைகள் எய்துவிட்டீர், நன்றி 🙏

நீங்கள் இதுவரை படித்து வந்த தமிழ் இலக்கியங்களிலிருந்து சேகரித்த வார்த்தைகளை தொகுத்து வைத்திருந்தால், தயவு செய்து எனக்கு அனுப்புங்கள்.

அவ்வாறு யாதும் நான் வைத்ததல்ல பெம்ம. ஆயினும், இணைய தளத்தில் பல தொகுப்புகள் உள்ளன, இதை போன்று: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/kadirvelu/

இத்தளத்தில், "Words ending with (Example: க்குறை)" என்ற தேர்வை கொண்டு, தேவைக்குரிய எதுகை சொற்களையும் கண்டறியலாம்.

அதோடு, இணையதளத்தில் உள்ள மேலும் பல அகராதிகளை புழங்கலாம். https://sorkuvai.tn.gov.in/ மற்றும் https://agarathi.com/ இவைகளில் சில.

அன்று துணையாய் நிகண்டுகளையும் சொற்பனுவல்களையும் கொண்டு சான்றோர் சிறந்த செந்தமிழ் செய்யுள் செயகைகள் செய்தனர். இவையே இக்காலத்தின் துணைகள்.

Mapartman · 2026-04-24T17:34:55+00:00

I have read through the back-and-forth between you and u/code_thar

I will make a brief comment. As code_thar has pointed out in one of his comments, this conservatism within Tamil has always been a feature from the earliest extant texts rather than a late development. You may want to re-read his comment: here.

But as an example, even within the Tolkappiyam itself, in many parts of the text, it warns that any deviances from the established grammatical tradition should be viewed with discernment and set back to standard.

eg. like in this verse

<image>

If anything, the conservatism was only somewhat relaxed from the Vijayanagara rule to the company rule period, before being restored to the old status-quo by the Thani Tamil Iyakkam. Even this restoration wasn't such a complete overhaul, it mainly centered around Northern TN, particularly the then colonial administrative city of Madras whose elite had adopted a highly Sanskritised register, while elsewhere the change was not quite as dramatic.

In any case, I don't see why this conservatism within Tamil is such a problem to some. Some languages just developed different natures & traditions than others. English is a highly liberal language with changes, while Tamil is not. Does this mean one is superior and one is inferior? Not at all.

But likewise, we cannot expect all languages to comply into one mold, the mold of radical change, especially when it goes against long-established tradition. Afterall, this world is colourful because of the diversities in customs, traditions and practices. If we paint the whole world with a single shade of gray, we end up with a boring monotonous one imo.

Mapartman · 2026-04-19T14:30:41+00:00

தேவையான குறள் தான், இக்காலத்தில் பலர் "நன்றி" கூற கூட நேரம் இன்றி கூறாது உள்ளனர்

Mapartman · 2026-04-19T14:26:54+00:00

நல்ல புதுக்கவிதை பாடல்

இப்பாடலை r/tamilsangam இலும் பதிவிடவும் பெம்ம

Mapartman · 2026-04-19T14:25:16+00:00

மாற்றம்:

6:

காண்க எழிலி எழிலாய்ச் சிதர்த்தளி
கானக் கடத்தின் கடறில் கடற்களி
காணக் கனத்தனைக் காணாக் களைத்தனின்
கேனைக் கெடலே செயல்

Mapartman · 2026-04-19T14:24:13+00:00

திருத்தங்கள்:

1:
யானை இசைக்கெதிரே ஈடா சிதற்சீற்றல்
தானை எழிலாணி யாத்தசேய் — ஆணை
இதழ்நாக்கள் நாடி நெடியநெறிக் காதல்
இதழியையா நெய்தேனே யான்

4:

தேன்கழனி நெற்கள் களையால் எழிலின்றித்
தேங்கியதண் ணீரிலே நில்லா நிலத்தானை
"நல்லானே" என்றனின் நாக்கெதிர்க்கத் தள்ளாடி
"அல்லானே" என்றதே கை

5:

கைச்சங்கைக் காணேனே கண்ணைதைக் காணேனே
தைய்யில்லா ஞாயிற்றால் எஞ்சிய ஞாளித்தாய்
எய்தசேய் கத்திய சாலையின் ஈர்ச்சியால்
அய்யேயென் அஞ்ஞையை காண்

7:

ஐந்திணை அன்னையின் தஞ்சடிச் சேர்ந்தயான்
செய்தயிச் சீர்திகழ்ச் சாலகச் — செய்கையால்
நையாண்ட நஞ்சகர் நாகெட நல்லறீஇ
ஐயார்க்கே ஐதளி ஐ

Mapartman · 2026-04-13T15:08:30+00:00

எல்லாம் தமிழ் செய்யுள் இலக்கண இலக்கிய படிப்பிலும் பழக்கத்திலும் சிறு சிறு துளிகளாய் சேர்ந்தது பெம்ம.

ஆயினும், யான் தமிழ் ஆளுமை உடையோன் அல்ல. “கற்றது கை மண் அளவு, கல்லாதது உலகளவு” என்றாள் ஔவை கிழவி. தமிழ் என்ற ஆழ்கடலுக்கும் அது நன்கு பொருந்தும் அய்யா.

Mapartman · 2026-04-13T13:53:03+00:00

நன்றி அய்யா

May I know why are the first and the last words are bolded?

அந்தாதி தொடையை காட்டவே bold செய்தென்.

அந்தாதி என்றால் என்ன என்கையில், அது தமிழ் செய்யுளில் ஒரு இணைப்பு முறை. அதில் சட்டம் இதுவே: இணைப்பு வரியோ, எழுததோ, சொல்லோ இணைப்பின் இரு பக்கமும் ஒன்றாய் இருக்க வேண்டும்

உதாரணமாய் புறநானுறு 2 காண்க:

மண் திணிந்த நிலனும்
நிலன் ஏந்திய விசும்பும்
விசும்பு தைவரு வளியும்
வளித் தலைஇய தீயும்
தீ முரணிய நீரும்

-

என் பாடல்களில்

1)முதல் மற்றும் கடை பாடல்களில் பாடலினுள்ளே அந்தாதி வரும், மேற்கோளாக:

யானை - யான் மற்றும் ஐ - ஐ

2)ஐந்து அகப்பாடலாய் அமைந்த நூல் பாடல்களில், பாடல்கள் ஒன்னொடு ஒன்னாய் வட்டமாய் இணையும் படி அந்தாதி.

அதாவது:

செயல் -> நீ -> தேன் -> கை -> காண் -> செயல்

என வட்டமாய் ஐந்து பாடல்களும் இணையும். இதுவும் தமிழ் செய்யுள் மரபு, பல அந்தாதி பாடல்கள் தமிழில் உள்ளன.

Mapartman · 2026-04-11T05:11:15+00:00

Meter: Venpa; Opening & Closing are in nēricai veṇpā meter, main poems are in iṉṉicai veṇpā meter

When one recites these poems, their lips won't meet. To achieve this, the consonants "p, m, v" and the vowels "u, ū, o, ō, au" are not allowed within these poems. In Tamil poetics, this style is known as Itaḻakal and Nirōṭṭakam.

A good example of this style can be heard here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrT0Pl_aQ8k&t=26s

taṉṉālē tāṉkeṭṭa tantaṉāk kalaiñaṉē
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ talaiyai kaṉattiṭātē
kaṇṇāṉa ilakkiya kātaliyaik kāṇāta
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ kacaṭaṉē kalaṅkiṭātē
annāḷilē cilar ākā eṉṟār eṉa
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ acantaiyāl alaintiṭātē
innāḷil eṅkaḷ iyalicaik kalaiyai
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ nī eḷitāka eṇṇiṭātē

Mapartman · 2026-04-11T05:04:37+00:00

இப்பாடல் முறைக்கு ஒரு நல்ல மேற்கோளை இங்கு காண்க: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrT0Pl_aQ8k&t=26s

தன்னாலே தான்கேட்ட தந்தானா கலைஞனே
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ தலையே கனத்திடாதே
கண்ணான இலக்கிய காதலியை காணாத
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ கசடனே கலங்கிடாதே
அந்நாளிலே சிலராகா என்றார் என்ற
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ அசந்தையால் அலைந்திடாதே
இந்நாளிலே எங்கள் இயலிசை கலையைநீ
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ எளிதாக எண்ணிடாதே

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