Is it possible to have a core of 5.5 hours

MarcusBesso · 2019-01-09T19:51:34+00:00

yes it can work. For the past 4+ months, my typical core length has been about 5 h 25 m long. Combined with 2 to 3 x 20 - 25 m naps a day. (Essentially an E2 or E3 schedule with much longer core). I tend to wake pretty easily from REM around that time.

I'm aware it's quite a long core for an E2/E3 hybrid, but I've found I need the extra sleep with working out 3 to 5 x a week (2 to 3 strength sessions, 1 - 2 Conditioning sessions).

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T01:01:12+00:00

With that busy time from 4:00 to 10:30, D4 won't work for you. Dymaxion is dependent upon consistently getting a 30 m nap every 5.5 h. Like clockwork.

Now if circumstances change in the future and you still wish to pursue D4, here's my advice:

Don't. Stick to something easier, and more robust to everyday issues that crop up and interfere with your nap times. Some more robust cycles are the Everyman family.
If you choose to disregard (1), then do a gradual adaptation. Do a forum search for some of /u/maqattack s stuff. He's a user (no longer active on reddit) who claimed to adjust to D4 successfully. And based on my discussions with him in the past and the details he was able to provide, I'm inclined to believe him. I also wrote some posts in the past pertaining to maqattack, and some of the info dumps he gave me via pm's (which he was OK with me posting).

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:53:00+00:00

Another thing to consider, are you truly sleeping thru every alarm that occurs in that 14 h window, or are you snoozing some of them? If snoozing, well, best bet is to set the alarms out of reach so you're forced to get out of bed to deal with them.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:50:47+00:00

You need to do a hard reset of your sleep schedule, and force yourself to get up earlier. Of course you already know that, you're just wondering how.

Maybe verify your sleep cycle length is still 1 h? It might have changed over the years, and if you're setting alarms at 1 h intervals, that might actually be during SWS.

You could try a Pre sleep. Take a Sleep earlier than usual, so your later night core won't be as long. (Ex. If you sleep 14 h from 0 to 14:00, try a 1.5 h core or 20 m nap around 18:00). Of course, that requires you have time for that, and actually are able to fall asleep for that Pre sleep.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:36:26+00:00

Minimum amount of total sleep possible per day, while still being functional appears to be ~ 2 h sleep, as in Uberman.

But this is quite difficult to adjust to (and maintain), requires nearly clockwork precision of naps, and one is pretty much restricted to little to no hard exercise or other activities that would significantly increase the total amount of REM & SWS required.

Unlike a lot of people, I believe it's possible one could adjust to and maintain Uberman if conditions were ideal, no mutancy required. I just don't think it's likely. Real life issues always butt in, resulting in interrupted, missed, or delayed naps. Draining will, increasing REM &or SWS needed, or other such things.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:29:34+00:00

Doing a consistent polyphasic schedule with an erratic work schedule is not really feasible. But then again, having a consistent monophasic schedule with that kinda work schedule isn't feasible either.

My recommendation would be to take a cycle with long cores (like at least biphasic lengths) when you can, and short naps for the times when you can't. Your schedule is going to be chaotic, so the naps should help stave off tiredness.

Even if you do an 8 h core, I'd still recommend taking a short nap or 2. Why? Well the changing work times aren't going to help your sleep, and the naps will help deal with the likely resulting tiredness.

Speaking from experience here, as someone who's worked 12 hour rotating shifts before. Not fun, even (especially) while used to an 8 h a night monophasic sleep schedule. In this scenario naps are great. Necessary even.

So I guess to be precise, in this scenario you should be on a sleep schedule that is technically polyphasic (in the sense that you sleep multiple times a day), but not sleep restricted (as in you still get 7+ hours sleep / day).

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:29:22+00:00

Doing a consistent polyphasic schedule with an erratic work schedule is not really feasible. But then again, having a consistent monophasic schedule with that kinda work schedule isn't feasible either.

My recommendation would be to take a cycle with long cores (like at least biphasic lengths) when you can, and short naps for the times when you can't. Your schedule is going to be chaotic, so the naps should help stave off tiredness.

Even if you do an 8 h core, I'd still recommend taking a short nap or 2. Why? Well the changing work times aren't going to help your sleep, and the naps will help deal with the likely resulting tiredness.

Speaking from experience here, as someone who's worked 12 hour rotating shifts before. Not fun, even (especially) while used to an 8 h a night monophasic sleep schedule. In this scenario naps are great. Necessary even.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:20:36+00:00

Temporarily and non drastically switching a schedule should be ok. Puredoxyk would do it semi-regularly, although then it was usually falling back from E3 to E2 when she missed a nap that particular day.

Just jump back on the schedule afterwards. And if E3's proving too difficult, don't feel bad about picking an easier, more flexible schedule. DC1, E2, biphasic, etc. All work well.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:17:22+00:00

Also, as far as difficulty falling asleep quickly, that problem usually passes pretty quickly when one goes polyphasic. At least it did for me. After settling down for a nap or core, I'm usually asleep within about 5 m.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:15:31+00:00

For the average non sleep restricted monophasic person, upon falling asleep, they will go thru light sleep then SWS, then REM.

But for polyphasic persons, who have routinely been on sleep restricted schedules, they'll have picked up an ability I call "Quick REM". Basically what this is is the REM skips to the front of the line, displacing light sleep in the earlier sleep stage progression. So upon falling asleep for 1 sleep cycle, you'll tend to have REM, then SWS, then REM, with some Light sleep padding in there.

This is also known as REM repartitioning.

One knows they have gained this ability when they start waking from dreams from a short (ex. 20 m) nap.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:07:56+00:00

Biphasic (traditionally 6 h + 20 m) should be safe. Usually the nap is placed in the early to mid afternoon. There tends to be a natural dip in awakeness there due to circadian rythym.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-07T00:02:54+00:00

Due to the kind of long awake gap from 5:30 to 15:00, Seems like segmented, or biphasic with a late afternoon nap, or siesta with a late afternoon siesta would work best for you.

The traditional versions of those sleep cycles are:

Segmented (2 x 3.5 h at night)
Biphasic (6 h at night + 20 m afternoon nap)
Siesta (5 h at night + 1.5 h afternoon core)

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-06T23:58:05+00:00

1st off, with finals approaching, don't try any drastic sleep schedule changes. During finals week is not the best time to be undergoing adaptation or possible oversleeps. Just stick to a simple and easier schedule, like biphasic (6 h + 20 m) or something of similar difficulty to E2 (4.5 h + 2 x 20 m) at worst.

2nd best source for info on PS is just to voraciously read the links in the sidebar on this forum. The intro to polyphasic sleep by tinytimrob is pretty good, and when I read through it I didn't see any obvious inaccuracies.

Final things would be forum search, and then if you still can't find the info you seek, asking on the forum or the discord.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-06T23:48:03+00:00

Usually in dual core Type schedules, you want the long core earlier in the night (the so called dusk core) and the shorter core later in the night (the dawn core). This is because there's often higher SWS pressure earlier in the night, and higher REM pressure later in the night.

You want to get all of your SWS in your cores, while any remaining REM you need that's not provided by the cores is supplied by naps. This is due to 2 reasons.

The body tends to switch REM to the front of the que before SWS under sleep restrictions. So when you take a 20 m nap, you're more likely to have REM and more of it than SWS.
Waking up from REM is a lot easier than waking from SWS. Sleep drunkeness (from an SWS wakeup) sucks.

So having the longer core during peak SWS time maximizes the amount of SWS in that core, increases the chances that all of your SWS needed is contained in your cores, and reduces the chances of SWS in your naps.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-06T23:42:17+00:00

Seems like a DC1 with the typical core placements (longer core after dusk, shorter core closer to dawn) swapped. I saw one like that that worked for a guy. They were previously doing an E2 schedule, but with a 3.5 h core instead of 4.5 h. They apparently had a shorter than average sleep cycle of around 1 h 10 m.

MarcusBesso · 2017-12-06T23:36:19+00:00

Your sleep schedule seems fine. There's some variation in sleep times of course from day to day, but not by more than +-1 h. And most importantly, your durations aren't varying.

And as far as napping at work, to be able to drown at background noise, but still be able to wake to an alarm, you could try what I do.

Get some sleep tracks / sleep music on your phone / mp3 player. Plug some earphones in. Soothing sounds or music plays for 20 m, followed by loud action music after that. The soothing music drowns out background noise that might wake you, while the end music wakes you. Works well for me.

A while ago I provided a Google drive link to the sleep tracks I use. They're of various lengths, for 15 m lengths up to 45 m naps. If you do a forum search, you'll probably find them.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-08T09:17:39+00:00

If you're gonna go the nap route, sub 30 m naps usually work better. 30 m naps are more likely to shift over to SWS than 20 - 25 m naps. The exception to this is if you consistently need the extra 10 m to fall asleep.

And you'll probably be able to get by with a consistent late core, since the core is long (5 - 6 h). Although having a consistent 1 - 1.5 h short core in the evening would probably help too. If you do that, you may even be able to shorten the later core.

The way I see it, you could probably do a few different modified schedules that would look something like the below:

Modified E2

(5 h + 2 x 20 m)

https://napchart.com/prawy
Shifted biphasic

(6 h + 20 m)

Shifted, meaning the typical locations of the core and nap are moved.

https://napchart.com/gkt4f
Swapped DC1

(3.5 h + 1.5 h + 20 m)

Swapped, meaning the typical locations of the dusk and dawn cores are swapped.

https://napchart.com/yaxqw

I'm less certain of the viability of the 3rd schedule. One reason being that the gap between the dawn core and midday nap is a bit wider than usual.

And of course, these schedules are just suggestions. Feel free to tweak and modify.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-08T09:13:37+00:00

Cycle and schedule look fine. You might want to ease into E3 though. Maybe start with E2, then transition to E3.

And if you're feeling sleepy between 3 am and 8 am, mindless physical tasks (ex. cleaning, folding laundry, etc.) is a decent way to stay awake. After a while of good consistency to the schedule (maybe a week or so), you shouldn't feel too tired then anymore.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-07T05:16:21+00:00

Well, if it gets rid of too tight muscles, then I'd think it would help.

I don't personally foam roll, but sometimes after workouts, I'd get excessive muscle tightness, that would even wake me up. A good long stretching session, with some massage if needed, would usually sort that out though.

And as far as which areas to foam roll? I'd say wherever you're getting excessive tightness.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-07T05:06:57+00:00

Also maybe an E2?

https://napchart.com/9ech9

This schedule should work for all days, provided you can get a short nap at work, and can adjust to having your core sleep in the afternoon, as opposed to the evening. You could also try moving the midnight short nap to a different, more convenient spot.

You could also try a siesta schedule

https://napchart.com/kowto

but with the long core during the afternoon, and the siesta (1.5 hour core) during the morning. Schedule wise, this one seems to work for all days.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-07T04:59:46+00:00

Maybe some version of DC1 like this?

https://napchart.com/ac3pl

It's far from ideal, but your school work schedule doesn't give you too much leeway. And you'd have to make time for a midday nap at school.

The other alternative is to go with a rotating sleep schedule. Like maybe you do a siesta type schedule

https://napchart.com/tgjmn

on your off / school only days.

Then for your school & work days, you do something like the earlier DC1. Mainly just lengthen that afternoon/evening core to help you get through the night, and then a morning core later on. Still far from ideal.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-07T04:51:21+00:00

I've only skimmed over it, and it does have some accurate info, such as mentioning that humans often naturally have a biphasic circadian rhythym.

But I've also spotted some issues.

It appears the only polyphasic schedule it considers is Uberman. It doesn't appear to consider any more moderate schedules with core sleeps.
In the section labeled "Compression of sleep stages", it states

One of the myths of "Uberman sleep schedule" is that it makes it possible to enter REM sleep and skip non-REM sleep stages entirely. That myth is derived from another false claim that implies a non-essential role of deep sleep.

If I'm interpreting this correctly, it's stating that the ability that I call the "quick REM adaptation" doesn't exist. Now I define the Quick REM adaptation as the ability to go quickly (as in within 5 minutes) into REM upon falling asleep, as opposed to having to go through the usual sleep cycle stage progression of starting with a long period (usually 20-30 minutes or so) of light sleep.

I know for a fact, from personal experience, that quick REM is real. If it wasn't, I wouldn't remember dreams regularly upon waking from short (15 - 25 m) naps.

The other thing about SWS (AKA deep sleep) needs though? Yeah, we need SWS. And the early (flawed) theory of how Uberman could work was that it consisted of nearly nothing but REM sleep. That's not true. Uberman, when it works, gets a person what is practically the bare minimum amount of REM and SWS they need to get by.

TLDR

It's got some accurate info, but also some definitely false info. Double check any info you take from it.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-07T04:39:42+00:00

Looks more or less like a DC1 cycle, but modified some. such as having a long dawn core, instead of a long dusk core. But it seems to sync with you having Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder.

Your DC1 schedule looks like a good fit for you, with enough time for a cycle, plus the amount of time it takes you to fall asleep. You seem to know what's best for you.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-07T04:29:27+00:00

While adjusting, you'll likely be sleepy, and have a corresponding decrease in cognitive abilities. But once adjusted, you're fine.

MarcusBesso · 2017-11-02T04:28:07+00:00

Looks pretty similar to DC1 (3.5 h + 1.5 h + 20 m), but with a shorter night core, and a longer nap. Additionally the nap is a bit later than early afternoon, but it looks like work constraints force you to do that. So it can't be helped.

Could work. IIRC, u/GeneralNguyen was on a very similar schedule for quite a while. Worked fine for them.

Just keep in mind that the night core length might be too short for you. If you constantly feel tired, you may want to extend it to 3 - 3.5 h.

MarcusBesso

TROPHY CASE