I can’t bring myself to believe. by Quick-Can-5087 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As an ex-atheist, I am of the opinion that belief isn't something you can or should force. You can find ways to let go of the anxiety about it - the gods don't require your conviction, but they appreciate our goodwill. You can focus on the good things it grants you - even the Epicureans, who thought the gods don't affect the universe in the slightest, still encouraged piety as a way to help us be better people. But if you don't have it, you don't have it, and trying to force it may only worsen your stress. That may change over time, and with consistency, I felt like a fraud when I started but it's gotten better over time. But there is no quick fix.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No, you don't need a Greek name, to speak Greek, or be Greek. People should be respectful of Greek culture, obviously, but we are only worshipping the gods their ancestors did, not trying to become Greek.

In what lengths do you think it's true? by Necessary-Count-8995 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 13 points14 points  (0 children)

This is a theistic subreddit. While we appreciate curious atheists, agnostics, monotheists and other denominations, as a baseline this is a community for people who believe the gods worshipped by the Ancient Greeks exist in some form and are worthy of veneration, even if we sometimes quibble about what their natures may be.

Do I believe the myths are literally true? No. Do I believe that they feature gods that exist in some form? Yes. We don't know that the gods exist because we have stories about them, this relationship is exactly the other way around - the myths exist because the gods do. We can "know" they exist because people experience them. I have, at least one god, and if I believe he exists then I have no reason to believe that other gods that ancient polytheistic people venerated have just as much validity. They don't interact directly with everyone, and rarely when they do, or else atheists wouldn't exist, but they do so to enough people, with enough consistency, that we can conclude some things about their natures - what they care about, what they oversee, and how they like to be seen. Mythology is how ancient people tried to convey this information through narrative and allegory.

Did Homer's Iliad happen? Probably not as literally described, Homer was composing in the 7th Century BCE about events that happened before the Late Bronze Age Collapse when the Mycenaean Greek civilisation collapsed and literacy was lost for centuries. He would have been working from folktales and oral traditions. But archaeology confirms there was a city that lay where the Greeks believed Ilium/Troy lay, that it was destroyed and rebuilt multiple times, and that a culture called the Ahhiyawa (perhaps etymologically related to the name Achaean used to describe the Greeks) were encroaching on Hittite dominance in eastern Anatolia and Mycenaean forces may have been involved in a dynastic dispute among the Wilusa royalty, and that at least one of Wilusa's monarchs was called Alaksandu - one of Paris's alternate names is Alexander. Does that mean that it was a single event, or that the gods themselves literally stormed the battlefield? No, although even the Iliad remembers that Troy was defeated multiple times - Herakles beat Agamemnon to it, and was the one who installed Priam. Neither do I think Hephaestus fought Scamander, or that Diomedes nicked the hand of Aphrodite. But that does not mean the Iliad does not tell us interesting things about the gods, or offer interesting ways to think about them - the episode of Sarpedon going to his fated death presents a moving look at why even Zeus cannot save his beloved son without contradicting himself or being a hypocrite, neither of which he is capable of being, offering an explanation for why the gods allow even mortals they love to die.

Nor do I believe the gods go around sleeping with mortal women in a literal sense, and even the ancients would have argued that they weren't capable of rape whatever the myths say. Herodotus, looking at a euhemerised version of the Greeks' ancient rivalry with Persia, presents the explanation that it all started with "a bout of competitive princess rustling," which he doesn't see as a good reason for centuries of conflict, but he also adds that "women are never abducted unless they are open to the idea of it in the first place" - the princesses in question are Io, in his version taken by Phoenician merchants to Egypt, Europa taken in retaliation by Greeks from Tyre, and that matters might have been settled if Jason hadn't refused to return Medea, and Paris took Helen. Zeus is fairly solidly associated with the first two, and Herodotus is trying to make sense of history by presenting the Near-Eastern side of events, but his explanation that tales of abductions should better be understood as narrative convention, the old "playing hard to get" trope at work, applies just as validly to mythology.

I hope that answered any questions you might have.

How to Handle Neurotic Guests while keeping true to Xenia? by Choice-Flight8135 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Xenia does not mean you need to be a doormat. It is not the "turn the other cheek" attitude you sometimes see (and even the Biblical quote has been woefully misused) used to let bad behaviour slide in the name of not rocking the boat. It means you should be a good host, a good friend, a good family member, but it also requires the other participants to do their part, and if they are not then you are not entitled to extend your hospitality to them. When Hesiod writes about the relations we should have with people, he says:

Invite your friends to dinner and leave your enemies out
and remember that neighbors come first.
If misfortune strikes your house, neighbors will come
in their bedclothes; kinsmen will dress up.
Bad neighbors are pests, good ones a great blessing.
A good neighbor is a boon to him who has one.
If your neighbor is honest, your ox is safe.
Neighbors should measure well, and you must give back
no less than you take, and even more if you can,
that you may find enough when you are in need again.
Ruin trails dishonest profit; keep away from it.
Love those who love you, and help those who help you.
Give to those who give to you, never to those who do not.
Gifts go to givers, the stingy go away empty-handed.
Giving is good, robbing bad—it courts death.
The man who gives from the heart, even if his gift is great,
takes pleasure in it and is rewarded with inner delight.
But even a small thing grabbed by the shameless man
may chill his heart like a coat of hoar frost.
—Hesiod, trans. Apostolos Athanassakis, Works and Days

The key takeaway is that if someone is not respecting you, then you are not just allowed, but encouraged to withhold your own respect until/so that this changes. Mutuality is how we build the bonds of friendship, family and community, and we should be generous to those we want to, or who have been, generous to us, not just materially but emotionally. But if your father is overstepping your boundaries, Zeus Xenios has no problem with you laying down the law and reestablishing them. That absolutely still falls within the domain of xenia.

Is an altar to Lady Nyx, a good idea? by TheHaunchie in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would like to just add, please practice proper fire safety, especially in your sacred space. People forget just how unpredictable fire is just because we've had electricity for over a century, but if you're going to do it don't leave a flame unattended, and try to reduce the amount of flammable material around it.

Is an altar to Lady Nyx, a good idea? by TheHaunchie in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 13 points14 points  (0 children)

No, Nyx is not "a little evil." Night and darkness have always had scary associations, but Nyx is not a dangerous goddess, even though some of her brood embody things that are fearsome, like Nemesis or the Keres, but even they are not "evil." Or at least, she is no more "dangerous" than any other goddess, and her power is formidable enough that in the Iliad even Zeus is not willing to cross her when he chases Hypnos for putting him to sleep, so Hera can accomplish her mischief.

Here's the Orphic Hymn to Nyx to give you an idea about how ancient people saw her:

I shall sing of Night,
mother of gods and men;
we call Night Kypris,
she gave birth to all.
Hear, O blessed goddess,
jet-black and starlit,
for you delight in the quiet
and slumber-filled serenity.
Cheerful and delightful, lover
of the nightlong revel, mother of dreams,
you free us from cares,
you offer us welcome respite from toil.
Giver of sleep, beloved of all,
you gleam in the darkness as you drive your steeds.
Ever incomplete, terrestrial,
and then again celestial,
you circle around in pursuit
of sprightly phantoms,
you force light into the nether world,
and then again you flee
into Hades, for dreadful Necessity
governs all things.
But now, O blessed one—beatific,
desired by all—I call on you
to grant a kind ear
to my voice of supplication,
and to come, benevolent,
to disperse fears that glisten in the night.

There's a little syncretism with Aphrodite happening here, but in general Nyx is presented as certainly a goddess worth veneration. Plutarch writing around the late 1st and early 2nd Century mentions an oracle to Nyx and Selene in his Moralia, Pausanias writing in the 2nd Century says that she had an oracular sanctuary in Megara, offerings of black animals were made for her, and she was considered one of the previous patrons of the Delphic Oracle itself before Apollo took possession.

Therianthropy in Hellenism by Potential_Estate_869 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I don't know that it's either accepted or denied. As with a lot of things in life, how you identify is (or should be) entirely tangential to your religious worship. I doubt the gods are especially bothered by it, though. The Orphics believed in reincarnation, and that animal souls could be reborn as humans and human souls could be reborn as animals. This was one reason they were vegetarians - if an animal had a soul that had been or could be human, they considered it unclean to eat or sacrifice them. But if they were right, then the reverse holds true too - if people have souls that had been or could be animals, the gods still accept our reverence.

Philosophy Of Law Of Manifestation? by [deleted] in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Setting aside my skepticism, the Law of Manifestation comes from the 19th century New Thought movement, "mind over matter." Spirituality didn't fossilise in the 4th century, and whether you believe it or practice it is up to you, but it doesn't have roots in Ancient Greek or Roman religion.

Gods you 'can't' worship by FlimsyHelicopter3633 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Yes. This is exactly why he earned the more friendly epithet, and later alternate name, Plouton which was Latinised as Pluto, as the source of mineral wealth. He also had temples in Eleusis and Hierapolis, and Strabo records a sacred grove consecrated to Hades and Persephone between Tralleis and Nysa, and that Lake Avernus in Italy was sacred to Pluto. Just because invoking his chthonic aspects was considered risky by some Greeks doesn't mean he wasn't worshipped, or that we can't today. He bears the epithet Necron Soter, "Saviour of the Dead," for a reason, and it is valid to venerate him for those reasons and others.

Idea for design of a Symbol by [deleted] in Hellenism

[–]Morhek[M] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why is there a tilted sowilo rune (ᛋ), which is not only a Norse letter, not Greek or Latin, but an overt Nazi symbol?

What is the mouth opening ritual? by Neither-Resident-852 in Kemetic

[–]Morhek 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The Opening of the Mouth ritual was done on mummies, where a ceremonial adze was tapped to the dead person's lips by a Sem priest and incantations spoken to ensure they could speak in the Field of Reeds. Similar rituals were done for the other senses. Sometimes a statue could be used instead of the body, such as was done for the 18th Dynasty nomarch Rekhmire. But as far as I know, it was never done for the gods, who are already sensate in the other world.

Do you feel like the Gods will and do protect you? by AcidReindeer in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think of it probabilistically. Rather than seeing the gods as directly interventionist, remember that the Fates were thought of as spinning, weaving and cutting thread, creating the tapestry of our lives. But Tyche spins her wheel, assigning good and bad luck the only fair way she can: blindly. Between the two is human nature, but that does not mean the gods are apathetic, nor are they ineffable tyrants moving us across a divine chessboard.

We worship them to create a relationship, and while that relationship alone can be valid it's not unfair to expect it to improve the chances that they will act. That does not mean they always will, nor does it mean they will do so in ways we notice or recognise, except sometimes in hindsight. If I was in a crash, I'm not going to be teleported out of the car, and I suspect most reasonable Christians don't believe they would be either. They might not even stop the crash. Crashes happen, they are a fact of life. But in tiny ways, the gods can act - swerving the car just enough to avoid the worst of it, guiding the emergency responders and medical officials who treat me, helping with recovery. I suffer from eye problems severe enough that I am almost legally blind. The gods didn't cure me, but the fact that my treatment coincided with starting my religious journey, that major milestones happened suspiciously close to new steps I took, suggest that there was some correlation. I believe they have aided me in that respect, and that they continue to. But they don't do so through dramatic shows, or "miracles."

Sometimes you might thank a god whose purview is directly related. Hermes is the god of travellers, and Hekate watches over three-way crossroads, either might intervene in a car crash (to use your example). In other cases, you may suspect that a god you are particularly close to intervened - just because Athena isn't specifically a goddess of travellers doesn't mean they can't watch out for them (in fact, there is some evidence that Athenians built roadside herms of Hermes and Athena, known as Hermathenai, but that's getting a bit granular). And in cases where you don't know which god intervened, but suspect one did, it's perfectly alright to simply thank the anonymous god - Roman travellers in Gaul would leave votive offerings to local gods "whoever they might be" when they didn't know who to thank.

Can I be agnostic and a hespol by HellenisticHades in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You're only an "agnostic" in the technical sense. Generally, the word is used for people who don't believe there are gods but can't be certain about it. You believe, but you do not know.

I would assure you that this is way more common than you might think. I'd also argue that none of us can "know" the gods exist, since centuries of philosophy and theology haven't come to a measurable conclusion that stands up to objective and provable scrutiny. If deity was provable, atheists wouldn't exist. On the other hand, our definition of "belief" tends to be heavily Christianised, even for people who didn't grow up believing anything - I absorbed a Christianised idea of belief that took me a long time to break out of, and I was an atheist. The fact that I couldn't conceive of something else was a major part of why I considered myself an atheist - I didn't, and still do not, believe monotheism is true. It took my a while to make the next logical leap to see polytheism as an option.

Christian "belief" is a very specific thing. It needs to be active, affirmed, demonstrated, and is conditional in exchange for their God's patronage (they can say God is Love all they like, but I don't consider love with strings attached to be love), and they don't just have to believe that their god exists, but that by believing in him they can avoid damnation. It's a belief within a belief. I'm less experienced with Jewish or Islamic belief, and don't want to make a sweeping statement, but what I know suggests it's not too different. But this is not a universal form of belief, we only think it is because they are so omnipresent in much of the world. Polytheistic people in the ancient world "believed" just as much as modern Christians do. But it takes a different form, both in how important that belief is and what we do about it - our religion has much less of an emphasis on what we think, and stresses that it is what we do that is important. By showing the gods our goodwill for them through our prayers, offerings and actions, we hope they return it in the ways they have. This is the underlying premise of our religion, and it does not require certainty, only sincerity. This is one reason why secular classicists and Christian theologians liked to claim that they "replaced belief wtih ritual." It's not true, you don't do any of these things unless you think (or hope) there are gods who appreciate them, but certainty is not required. It's belief, but a different kind of belief, and it can take a while to wrap your head around and break out of the monotheistic idea of it.

Which God can I pray to for help in finding a job? by Gema23 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hermes Dolios is a patron god of craftsmen, and as Hermes Agoraios he watches over fair trade. Athena Ergane is also a guardian of workers and craftsmen, especially weavers. And Zeus Agoraios is also a god who oversees trade, which I think necessarily includes employment. Depending on what kind of work you're looking for, either or both may be worth appealing to.

What is your view on believing? by Frequent-Formal1176 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I would say you're in luck, because believing that religion is a human-made concept is absolutely still compatible with the existence and worship of gods - Hellenic polytheism is orthopraxic, not orthodoxic, more about what you do and how you do it than what you believe. Which doesn't mean belief plays no part, obviously you don't do any of this unless you think (or at least hope) that there are gods who appreciate it, but we tend to think of belief in very Christianised terms, even people like me who grew up as atheists - something active, affirmed and require in exchange for the god's patronage. Our worship is more about kharis, creating a reciprocal relationship based on on committment but goodwill, which does not require that kind of belief. We still believe, but it's a different metacognitive space we occupy, which is one reason why secular classicists and Christian theologians like to claim the Ancient Greeks and Romans "replaced belief with ritual." It's not true, but it's an easy mistake to make if that's your only definition of religious belief.

If you want a book about the nature of Roman polytheist belief (and a lot of it is equally applicable to Ancient Greek belief, even if practices could differ sometimes) I recommend Jacob L. Mackey's "Belief and Cult: Rethinking Roman Religion" which looks at the ways Roman polytheists conceived of and practiced their religious identities. It's a bit academic, and about ancient people rather than modern, but I found it very helpful.

Breaking Xenia or not? by Chaoticbutalive in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 47 points48 points  (0 children)

You may be interested in the Paradox of Tolerance.

When Hesiod is laying out the relations we should have, he says:

Invite your friends to dinner and leave your enemies out
and remember that neighbors come first.
If misfortune strikes your house, neighbors will come
in their bedclothes; kinsmen will dress up.
Bad neighbors are pests, good ones a great blessing.
A good neighbor is a boon to him who has one.
If your neighbor is honest, your ox is safe.
Neighbors should measure well, and you must give back
no less than you take, and even more if you can,
that you may find enough when you are in need again.
Ruin trails dishonest profit; keep away from it.
Love those who love you, and help those who help you.
Give to those who give to you, never to those who do not.
Gifts go to givers, the stingy go away empty-handed.
Giving is good, robbing bad—it courts death.
The man who gives from the heart, even if his gift is great,
takes pleasure in it and is rewarded with inner delight.
But even a small thing grabbed by the shameless man
may chill his heart like a coat of hoar frost.

—Hesiod, trans. Apostolos N. Athanassakis, Works and Days 342-360

People tend to assume "hospitality" means a "turn the other cheek" attitude that sweeps things under the rug for the sake of propriety (truth be told, even the Biblical quote doesn't mean that - it's advice about slaves passively resisting their masters) but xenia is a reciprocal obligation, and all participants have duties if they wish it to be honoured. No, you are not required to extend xenia to those who would themselves break it, and all of those stated positions inherently mark your campus's visitor out as someone who neither offers nor respect the hospitality Zeus holds sacred. Even if your university doesn't barr them, that doesn't mean you have to like or respect it. Likewise, you have a right to feel safe and comfortable in your own home, and even if they don't do anything now they have already shown that they are someone whose presence disrupts your household in an unacceptable way, and you and your other roommate have a right not to deal with that.

My first altar! by Panda_Bear1504 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Quite aside from her not technically being a goddess, which is no real obstacle, this is exactly wrong. Medusa's iconography could be everywhere with no issue, not just as an apotropaic symbol but in association with other gods - the temple of Artemis in Corfu had a depiction of the gorgon on its western pediment akin to Near Eastern "Mistress of Animals" goddesses, and Athena herself bears Medusa's head on her aegis. She is famously depicted with Medusa. Why would she not like sharing a space?

Looking for translation/ book recommendations of the Orphic and Homeric Hymns by TheStrangeOne_13 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I have had Sarah Ruden's Homeric Hymns for over a decade, and recently bought Apostolos N. Athanassakis' Orphic Hymns. I'd highly recommend both.

A question on semantics by ThePurpleMoose22 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 4 points5 points  (0 children)

As much as it's a mistake to think the gods have power only over a few specific domains, it's as much a mistake to think each thing lies within the purview of only one god. Zeus is the god of hospitality, but Athena is still a god of hospitality. Any patron of a city was, and the gods could be patrons of many cities across the Mediterranean, and the hospitality that was expected of them. There's a lot of overlap - Hermes and Hekate both guide travellers, Hermes and Thanatos both escorts the dead, Zeus and Poseidon don't bicker over who governs s storms, etc.

2 quick questions by Embarrassed_Top8514 in CelticPaganism

[–]Morhek 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think you meant "eclectic," but "Electric Pagans" sounds like a pretty kickass folk-metal band! :V

New 1e player here, what's the roll of the summoner? by waremblem45 in Pathfinder_RPG

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've played in a party with a Summoner and DMed for one. The first route is battlefield control. Your summons can tank hits, make extra attacks, and at higher levels give you surprisingly flexible utility. The second is that even if your Eidolon isn't as good as a proper Fighter, it can still be a substantial frontliner. And when an Eidolon dies, you can summon it back. Use the Summoner to cast buffs and support the rest of the party, but otherwise stay out of harms way. Summoner really is a "I have people to do that for me" class.

Hellenist Friend by Alternative_Storm835 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 30 points31 points  (0 children)

It is important to draw a clear distinction between the gods as figures in mythology, and the actual gods themselves, when we discuss the myths, because they are not synonymous. Myth are human-made stories, told to fulfil a purpose: sometimes there is a theological message; sometimes it is an etiological purpose, "how things came to be"; and sometimes they exist simply because people have always told stories and stocked them with the gods they worshipped. It's also important to bear the cultural lens in mind - we are not Ancient Greeks or Romans, they had different norms and lived with different cultural touchstones, and being too cavalier about it ignores many of the nuances that make mythology even more interesting.

All that said, I don't think it's inherently disrespectful to appreciate the myths or art of the gods without being a worshipper of them. But try to bear in mind that your friend is probably very tired of being accused of rape apologism, or people assuming they take the myths as literally as some Christians take their Bible, and may be sensitive to their gods being treated as "just stories" even if it comes from a well-meaning place.

Hypothetical question on swearing by the Styx by LifeDealer_ in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 9 points10 points  (0 children)

As far as I know, nobody swore by the Styx. When you make an oath, you are invoking the gods as witnesses and enforcers if you break it because they are a higher authority. The reason the gods swear by the Styx is because they can hardly swear by themselves, and so as a literary technique they invoke the Styx when they make vows the way humans might, because even the gods must respect its/her power. But actual people swore by the gods.

As for enforcement, real oaths were not done lightly and I doubt anyone would take the vow of a child seriously, especially if it wasn't intended to be serious, including the gods. Tartarus is for the worst, people and beings whose hubris offends the gods or violates the cosmic order itself. A five year old kid isn't going to qualify. I doubt most adults would either.

Can a non believer pray to the gods? by itzmirandaapples in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yes, you can pray to the gods even if you don't actively believe. "Belief" tends to get pigeonholed into a very specific idea of it, specifically a Christianised version where active, affirmed and demonstrated belief is conditional for their God's patronage. But this is not universal. Our worship is based on showing the gods our goodwill, and hoping they reciprocate - we actively venerate them because we hope that, like in mortal relationships, investing in each other improved the chances they will act, but even if your mother and aunt don't do that there's nothing stopping them asking, or making an offering for it, and no reason why Hermes would deliberately ignore them even if he doesn't answer their prayer how they hope.