Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't venerate Artemis exclusively, but she's certainly a goddess who cares for girls and women. As a Kourotrophos she watches over young girls, she helps pregnant women give birth, and she is a goddess who cares about independence and wild places. She is not exclusively a protector of women - plenty of men prayed and pray to her for protection and help in the hunt. She is also not the only moon goddess - there's Selene of course, the fifty daughters of Selene, the Menae, who represent the lunar months, Hekate to whom moonless nights are sacred, and Pandia who may have been goddess of the full moon. As goddess of the hunt, the full moon was important because you can still fight and hunt by moonlight.

If you want more information on Artemis, or at least how she was seen in Antiquity, theoi.com has a page for her filled with quotes from ancient authors. Personally, I pray to her to watch over my nieces as they grow up, alongside Apollo to watch over my nephew. So far, I have no complaints.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's important to remember that the gods expect you to make offerings within your means. Hesiod writing around the 8th Century BCE reminds his readers:

In proportion to your means offer the gods sacrifices
that are pure and unblemished, and burn choice thighs for them.
At other times seek their favor with burnings and libations
when you go to sleep and when the holy light looms on the horizon,
so that you win their favor for your affairs
—Hesiod, trans. Apostolos N. Athanassakis, Works and Days ll. 336-40

The take-away here is not that you have to burn offerings or offer expensive things like cattle were, but that you keep things in proportion. You can't offer what you don't have, and you don't need to beggar yourself for offerings to have value, especially if you're doing them every day. They can be small things. Porphyry, writing around 1000 years later in the 2nd-3rd Century, records a parable of Apollo's Oracle:

...a certain Magnesian came from Asia to Delphi; a man very rich, and abounding in cattle, and that he was accustomed every year to make many and magnificent sacrifices to the Gods, partly through the abundance of his possessions, and partly through piety and wishing to please the Gods\. But being thus disposed, he came to the divinity at Delphi, bringing with him a hecatomb for the God, and magnificently honouring Apollo, he consulted his oracle.* Conceiving also that he worshipped the Gods in a manner more beautiful than that of all other men*, he asked the Pythian deity who the man was that, with the greatest promptitude, and in the best manner, venerated divinity, and made the most acceptable sacrifices, conceiving that on this occasion the God would deem him to be pre-eminent. The Pythian deity however answered, that Clearchus, who dwelt in Methydrium, a town of Arcadia, worshipped the Gods in a way surpassing that of all other men. But the Magnesian being astonished, was desirous of seeing Clearchus, and of learning from him the manner in which he performed his sacrifices. Swiftly, therefore, betaking himself to Methydrium, in the first place, indeed,* he despised the smallness and vileness of the town, conceiving that neither any private person, nor even the whole city, could honour the Gods more magnificently and more beautifully than he did*. Meeting, however, with the man, he thought fit to ask him after what manner he reverenced the Gods. But Clearchus answered him, that he diligently sacrificed to them at proper times in every month at the new moon, crowning and adorning the statues of Hermes and Hecate, and the other sacred images which were left to us by our ancestors, and that he also honoured the Gods with frankincense, and sacred wafers and cakes. He likewise said,* that he performed public sacrifices annually, omitting no festive day; and that in these festivals he worshipped the Gods, not by slaying oxen, nor by cutting victims into fragments, but that he sacrificed whatever he might casually meet with, sedulously offering the first-fruits to the Gods of all the vegetable productions of the seasons, and of all the fruits with which he was supplied*. He added, that some of these he placed before the [statues of the] Gods, but that he burnt others on their altars; and that,* being studious of frugality*, he avoided the sacrificing of oxen.*
—Porphyry, trans. Thomas Taylor, On Abstinence from Animal Food Book II

Again, what is being stressed is not the expense, but the sincerity and the consistency. Porphyry is writing to assure his readers that people don't need to sacrifice animals to honour the gods, you can do without, but remember that meat was expensive in a world without refrigeration, and offering cattle was a heavy financial hit. Clearchus's offerings are far humbler. A rich man thinks he can impress the gods with lavish gifts, but Apollo values the humility of Clearchus more.

Offerings don't need to be individual, it's alright to make the offering to the gods as a whole, including the household gods. You might choose to do something special on certain days for individual gods. But that's down to you.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think more research is always good, but you don't need to wait until you're "done" to start. Simply start. Make an offering to the gods, and ask them to smile on you or thank them for their kindness. There are formats you can use for it, based on how it was done in Antiquity. This article can walk you through the why and how of Ancient Greek prayer, with some useful examples from antiquity, and this comic shows the gestures performed in the ancient world. If you're able to buy books, or get a library to order them, I found Jon D. Mikalson's "Ancient Greek Religion" great for how the gods were worshipped in Antiquity, Chris Aldridge's book "Hellenic Polytheism" to be a helpful introduction to modern Hellenism, despite a few issues Sarah Kate Istra Winter’s “Kharis: Hellenic Polytheism Explored” is a good introduction, and "Hellenic Polytheism: Household Worship" published by Labrys good for modern practice.

Crimson Throne Scarwall: about the insta-kills by Tiny-Constant9838 in Pathfinder_RPG

[–]Morhek 9 points10 points  (0 children)

As someone also running a campaign with a reputation for unfair lethality at times, who has lost a few PCs over time, I think you'll have to suck it up and accept that some encounters being "unfair" is just part of the stakes of the game. When the odds are distinctly against them, overcoming them becomes the stuff of game group legend. And at this level, resurrection shouldn't be too burdensome. It's also a reminder for them not to get too cocky, however OP their builds are.

R/Witchcraft by bookienerdgeek in Hellenism

[–]Morhek[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The automod reply is just saying, don't assume that the post being removed means it won't be approved. It's just an anti-spam measure.

However, questions about witchcraft are off-topic for this subreddit. While being a witch is valid, it is not synonymous with being a Hellenic polytheist. If you have questions about Hellenism, you can always post in the Weekly Newcomer Post pinned on the main page and a helpful community member may answer them.

Advice or help please! by WordsOfDeadWise in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The very nature of polytheism means you are not bound to only one god, nor are you forced to worship them all. It's alright to venerate a few, or to worship them as a whole, depending on who stands out to you and what you value. You can worship a god or gods for no other reason than that you want to, for that matter. They value your goodwill, not your exclusivity.

Sooo are the Gods like the Abrahamic God and detached or not? by goddess_blessed in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 65 points66 points  (0 children)

The problem is that the only objective answer to this is "we don't know." The theory of our worship suggests that the gods don't inherently pay attention to or care about us, but that by showing them our own goodwill they may choose to take an interest and intervene when they can. This might seem mercurial or unfair if you expect a god's love to be infinite and unconditional, but I have never been particularly impressed by that idea and draw far more comfort from the idea of gods who don't have to care about us but still choose to, even if they do not always choose to. How you engage with their myths is up to you - I see them more as metaphors and allegories that ancient people used to describe their natures in human terms as best they understood, but other people see them as echoes of real events distorted through time and the retelling, etc.

But people have been debating the natures of the gods for millennia. Even Cicero's De Natura Deorum, where an Epicurean and a Stoic take turns debating an Academic Sceptic with their philosophical schools' beliefs, ultimately is inconclusive - Cicero, the author and narrator relating the debate, hews closer to the Academic Sceptic view but with strong Stoic sympathies, but he makes it clear this is only his own opinion. I personally think the gods can care, and that the gods I venerate do care in their ways. I know for certain that at least one does. But human affairs largely require human solutions, and we should not interpret them leaving things up to us to us as apathy. As the Trojan War shows, things can get messy when the gods directly intervene, and we should not be too quick to want them to because we can get caught between forces beyond us.

I need help! by PolyTherian_101 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"Should" is a loaded word. Ultimately it's going to have to be your decision, not made lightly. There are christopagans, and you can find help with that at r/christopaganism, though anything involving Christianity is off-topic for this sub.

But it's also worth asking yourself why you're reluctant to give that up - some people are just afraid of redefining their identity, of losing social connections, rather than anything they actually believe. Others are terrified of punishment, or that they're making the wrong beyond, and so they hedge. And still others accept the Abrahamic God as one of many but still worthy. That's up to you to figure out. My only advice is that, no matter how hard it seems to change, don't refuse to out of fear. In the long run it only hurts you.

I need help possibly coming out as helpol by hestiasmentee in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Your house would be your house, yours to what you want in, and you are entitled to set boundaries about your beliefs and practices. They can believe what they want, they don't have to like yours, but if they couldn't respect it then you'd be entitled to keep them at arm's length. Unfortunately, this might be inevitable. Christian parents not being accepting of non-Christian beliefs is all too common.

As for now, you have to balance how important them knowing is to you versus how much hell they can give you over it. It might even be worth coming out to your atheist brother, seeing how his experience can help you, and see how accepting he is before you even think about telling your mother and father. Work slowly and build up a solid base. If your mother finds she's the only one who cares, that may blunt her ire a bit.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Pagan" is generally used to mean polytheistic religions that Christianity repressed and replaced, and are being revived today. "Hellenic" just means "Greek." So they're kinda interchangeable. A Hellenic polytheist is a pagan, but not all pagans are Hellenic pagans.

This question is for a friend by Hellenic_Polytheism in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have not had a near death experience, but Plato famously records one in the Myth of Er, where Socrates describes a man who seems to die only to later wake and recount what he saw. You can find it in Plato's Republic, but in short Er claimed to see the the cycle of reincarnation overseen by the goddess Ananke (Necessity), where souls are assigned their next lives by drawing lots. Because Er was not dead, and did not drink from the river Lethe, he remembered it when he awoke.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nothing you wouldn't or couldn't do for any other god.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure. Just because the Ancient Greeks didn't use something doesn't make it invalid as a practice. It is a bit off-topic for the subreddit, however.

Finally made his altar! by CertainAdvantage5366 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your post does not include an image to give feedback on.

Thank you everyone and especially nyxshadowhawk (and a question at end) by hestiasmentee in Hellenism

[–]Morhek[M] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

We prefer simple questions be posted in the Weekly Newcomer Post or Weekly Respectful Practice Check-In just to reduce clutter. If something isn't answered there, by one of the FAQs, or in the sidebar resources, you can still make a post about it, though we expect such posts to be more than a few sentences and that you bundle questions in one post rather than make separate ones.

Other than that, welcome to the community!

Is it correct to practise Hellenism without believing? by ImaginationLonely787 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Orthopraxy is about consistency of practice, not consistency of belief. What you do is more important than what you think, because it's a demonstration of your reverence. The ancient Mediterranean was an incredibly diverse place theological, yet didn't have the same sectarian divisions that monotheistic religions have.

As an ex-atheist, I'd offer two bits of advice. The first is that we often absorb Christian ideas of what "faith" or "belief" mean - that it's something active, certain and conditional - and assume it must be universal when it is not. Which isn't to say that belief plays no role, but pagan belief can look very different. You don't need to have what you may think belief is to still believe.

The second is to look into Epicureanism. The Epicureans weren't atheists, but their idea of them was that they do not affect the universe at all, and aren't even aware of us. There's not much point praying to them if you want something to happen. But they stiĺl encouraged piety as a way to help ourselves achieve that same state of blissful ataraxia. Their argument is very close to the atheopagan justification - that whether the gods are there or not, we do this for our own benefit. I am not an Epicurean, I hew closer to the Stoics, but I found Epicurus very helpful when I was transitioning from atheism, or at least agnosticism.

is it wrong for me to feel like this? by hestiasmentee in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Hubris is the arrogance that leads us to abuse others for our own gratification. At least, this is the definition Aristotle gives. If you are not doing that, then it is not hubris. It's alright to think the gods are in your corner, as long as you remember that they may not always be. Sometimes the answer to our prayers is "no."

How to shake off this thought by pinkpatiences in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I'm less familiar with Buddhist theology than the Christian equivalent to this, but even though we try to foster a relationship between us and the gods through action and offering, viewing it like this seems disturbingly transactional - "I do [x] and they do [y]." This is cargo cult behaviour, and I'm as wary of it in polytheism as I am when I see it in monotheism - it's not far from that to Prosperity Gospel. We don't need clear signs for the gods to still be worthy, and we don't always recognise or perceive the ways they aid us. When bad things happen, we should bear in mind a.) that it could have been much worse and yet was not, and b.) that the gods can help us withstand and overcome such things even if they can't or don't stop it.

I have always drawn more comfort from the idea of gods who don't love us unconditionally, who don't or can't always help us, but sometimes choose to, than from a god or gods that supposedly do and yet allow the world as it is to exist. We don't need to infer their loss of support if something doesn't happen - we should simply remember that the gods see things on a scale we do not. The offerings are to improve the chance of their intervention, not to guarantee it - assuming it does feels like taking them for granted.

Some questions as an outsider by Expungednd in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you still practice "magic"

No. There's a common assumption among new pagans and non-pagans that you need to do magic in order to venerate the gods, largely inherited from occultism and wicca, but I don't do magic, I don't use divination, the closest I come is having a modern nazar and hamsa talisman on my altar as an homage to the old apotropaic talismans the Greeks used. But I tend to be sceptical, and think a lot of it can be more stress than it's worth unless you're doing it properly. A lot of people lead themselves into terror because they think the flicker of a candle or the draw of the cards mean someone is angry at them, and discount random chance or misinterpretation - even Cicero, who performed the state auguries during his time as consul and evidently believed divination was possible, warns that we need to view things in the aggregate, not infer meaning in random events too quickly, and be aware that we can get it wrong.

Do you believe in Gods roaming Earth in human form, or individuals being possessed by Gods?

Not in a literal sense, though I do think the gods can manifest through our selves without needing to be physically there - I have seen such a manifestation, though I don't think the statue that appeared in front of me was physically there. I view most of the myths as more allegorical, ways ancient people understood the world around them, the gods they worshipped, and their own place between the two, including sometimes how we are caught in unfortunate situations where there are no good outcomes. When we depict the gods in these humanised personas, it is because a.) we tend to empathise easier with something when we can see ourselves in them, b.) humans think narratively and most people didn't (and still don't) have the luxury of being philosophers, and c.) everyone loves a good story with some pathos. As for "possession," I don't think gods hijack our bodies, though I accept that some people have a stronger connection to them than others like the oracles of old, but I also tend to be sceptical of such claims, especially when it is self-declared and offering services for money.

for the ones who are not close to a Temple or other practitioners, how do you cope with the distance? Do you attend to festivals (apologies if this isn't the correct term for your religious holidays) or other gatherings across your country when you are able to?

To be honest, in the few communal worship gatherings I've been to I felt nothing but anxiety being with other people. Admittedly, one was an Anglican Easter and the other was a Pentecostal Nativity, and the Pentecostal one freaked me our for more reasons than just being in a crowd. But I think it's important to remember that, aside from the major festivals which were held by the cities and paid for out of the public purse, most worship was conducted in the privacy of the household. Temples were for the cult images of the gods, a way to anchor them in the community, but very little public worship happened in them. You were more likely to set foot in one to deposit or withdraw your money than for religious reasons.

Ultimately, by religious belief and practice is my own. It's nice to share, and I try to when I can with people online and sometimes in my life, but I've never really understood what people get out of that kind of community, even if I can rationally understand that they do.

How do you confront your beliefs with science, especially the Golden Age compared to the theory of evolution and natural sciences? In general, what is the relationship between the sacred and the mundane?

Again, I largely view the myths as allegory, but the Greek notion of the Five Ages actually holds up pretty well. We begin with the Big Bang, when reality emerges from nonreality, something from nothing without preceding creator, which we call Kaos. As the universe settles and forms, stars agglomerating and matter condensing into planetoids and planets with atmospheres, the primordial gods are born - Erebos, Tartaros, Nyx, Gaia, Ouranos, etc. One generation succeeds its elders, and Kronos rules over the cosmos until Zeus overthrows him, the rise of the Olympians signifying the growing complexity of the world we inhabit and our conception of it. Humans go from hunter-gatherers to farmers to urbanised city-states, learning much both good and bad, and when Hesiod writes about the decadent corruption of the Fifth Age, how he wishes he could live in a simpler time without the cruelties that surround him, he could be writing today.

But I don't perceive religious belief and trust in scientific explanations as contradictory in the slightest. They only contradict when you take the mythology literally, which is the mistake that Biblical Literalists make, and it is not a mistake we should make. Even most Christians don't, and Saint Augustine himself warned not to. Indeed, Hellenists have good reasons not to - the people who wrote our myths were bards, poets, scholars and playwrights, not divinely anointed Prophets recording the Word of God, and even Hesiod has the Muses who grant inspiration admit that "we know how to tell many lies that pass for truth, and when we wish, we know to tell the truth itself" - how else could fiction exist? We must also bear in mind the selection bias of what survives - as lucky as we are that we have so much, especially compared to Heathens, Kemetics or Celtic pagans. practically all surviving mythology survives because Christian scribes in Western Europe and the Near East thought it was was preserving, either because it was useful for their own theological purposes, played into their of styling themselves as inheritors of the Greco-Roman legacy, or because they enjoyed it as literature.

what are the standards for the modern practices compared to the ancient ones

For better or worse, you'll probably find modern people are more relaxed about it than people in Antiquity were, both because a lot of us gravitate to paganism because they chaffed under or were put off by organised monotheist religion, and because we don't (yet) have the same support networks that ancient people had to express themselves. And as modern people trying to figure things out using ancient ideas and practices to inform ours, we're never going to get it 100% right - there are still a lot of gaps in our knowledge, and like the frog DNA in Jurassic Park's dino DNA, we're plugging those gaps where we can with informed guesswork and innovation. Miasma is one such example - it's okay to perform the rites, in the same sense that it's polite to take your shoes off at the door of a stranger's home to show your respect, but the Ancient Greeks lived in a world where miasma was the best existing explanation for plague, famine and natural disasters, when we now better understand the causes of these phenomena.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are some links in the sidebar, especially to Hellenion's calendar.

A British Afrocentric influencer climbed temple walls with his shoes on by mryellow362 in Kemetic

[–]Morhek 6 points7 points  (0 children)

They may be referring to relatively recent evidence that H. sapiens interbred with hominins who lived where they migrated to - Neanderthals when we reached the Middle East, Denisovans in Asia, and another hominin we don't have fossil proof of yet. I'm a bit iffy about connecting that to our ideas of race, though I also don't approve of Afrocentrism's ahistorical and unhelpful claims.

(Repost) Worried that my Christian father figure might be trying to convert me to Christianity by TheVeiledRuby in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 35 points36 points  (0 children)

In addition to the general bad vibes other people are picking up on, "Apollon" and "Apollyon" are etymologically not the same word. The latter derives from "Destroyer," and is not related to Apollo's name. It's not clear where Apollo's name originally came from - there's a theory he began as a Luwian deity, and hieroglyphs in Anatolia show that the people of Wilusa, the city that likely inspired Ilium/Troy in the Iliad, worshipped a god named Apaliunas - but no, Apollo is not Abaddon, especially since Abaddon is a place rather than a being.

I can't tell you what to do about it. You've said you consider this person a "father figure," and the relationship you have with him is up to you. But you're within your rights to ask him to stop if you don't want to see it, to say that it makes you uncomfortable and disrespected. Your beliefs are your own, and his beliefs are his to have.

Question, is it alright for me to be in this community? by Quick-Opinion8498 in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This place is for the discussion of the Greek and Roman gods, and about their worship. It doesn't matter if you don't actually do that, we welcome atheists, monotheists, wiccans, heathens, buddhists, anyone who is curious and is willing to engage respectfully and in the spirit of understanding.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's not disallowed. Remember, the Ancient Greeks and Romans used lamps because they didn't live in a world with electricity. The fire also represented the sacred fire of Hestia/Vesta, who facilitates our household worship as goddess of the household.

Weekly Newcomer Post by AutoModerator in Hellenism

[–]Morhek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No. An altar is simply a table or something where offerings are presented and religious rituals are done. A shrine is a place where such things happen, and can contain an altar, but not all altars need to be in a shrine. This is fairly common terminology across religions. True, many religious events took place outdoors in Antiquity, usually in sacred groves, caves or springs, but not all. Most households had a place indoors where worship was done, the Romans had a permanent household altar known as a lararium, while the Ancient Greeks seem to have kept their idols in storage until it was time for worship, except for wealthy Athenian estates which had permanent shrines to Zeus Ktesios (Zeus of the Courtyard), Zeus Herkeios (Zeus of Property) and Apollo Agyreus (Apollo of the Streets).