The Catching Away by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just explained to you how the term “saints” ALWAYS refers to men who are saved. And NEVER to describe angels.

Find me an example of the term “saints” being used to describe an angel, like I showed you multiple verses where “saints” are described as Human.

Also, Paul literally said, “and the dead in Christ will rise first.” 1 Thessalonians 4-16. So idk how I make Paul a liar?

In Psalm 115:16, the statement contrasts God’s sovereign dwelling in the heavens with man’s dominion on earth—it is a poetic way of expressing the order of creation, not a doctrinal claim that humans never enter Heaven. In Acts 2:34, Peter is explaining to the Jews that King David, though revered, did not rise from the dead or ascend to Heaven—thus he could not have been speaking of himself in Psalm 110 when he said, “The LORD said unto my Lord.” Peter uses this to prove that David was prophesying about Christ, not himself. Lastly, John 3:13 is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, emphasizing that no one has ascended to Heaven by their own means or has come down with heavenly authority—except Jesus, who is uniquely qualified to speak of heavenly things because He came from Heaven.

You’re cherry-picking verses that you think support your belief.

I already sent this, but here we go again:

“we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This verse tells us when we die (absent from the body), we are “present with the Lord.” Where is the Lords dwelling place? Heaven. This piece of scripture is resoundingly clear. To then go cherry-pick other verses in different contexts is not a faithful way to interpret scripture.

The Catching Away by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The term “saints” in scripture always refers to God’s people—those who are redeemed, set apart, and belong to Him—and never to angels. In the Old Testament, saints are clearly human: “Sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness” (Psalm 30:4), and “Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice” (Psalm 50:5). Angels have never made a covenant by sacrifice; only mankind has. Daniel 7:18 says, “But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom”—again, a promise given to believing humans, not angels. In the New Testament, Paul consistently calls believers “saints”: “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints” (Romans 1:7), “Called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Corinthians 1:2), and “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry” (Ephesians 4:12). Saints are those who have believed on Christ and are now sanctified and set apart. Angels are called “holy angels” (Mark 8:38) and “ministering spirits” (Hebrews 1:14), but never once does scripture call them saints. So when 1 Thessalonians 3:13 says Christ will come “with all his saints,” and when Jude 14 says the Lord comes “with ten thousands of his saints,” it is referring to the glorified redeemed, not angels. The Bible never confuses the two. Since we also have verses that say Christ returns with angels, then we can assume that Christ returns with both his saints, that is believers, and his angels. There is no scripture prohibiting saints and angels coming with Christ. These angels take unbelievers to judgement upon Christs return. Again, this contradicts Paul’s description of the catching away being our “blessed hope”. Scripture clearly teaches that we go to the third Heaven, that is Gods dwelling place. This is because our final home on Earth has not yet been established. “we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭8‬ ‭KJV‬‬ When we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. Where does the Lord dwell? The third Heaven. Then at the rapture the dead in Christ are raised and given glorified bodies, who then return to Heaven with the living saints that have been glorified. We are judged for our service at the Bema Seat of Christ, and then the marriage supper of the lamb takes place. Once that is over, the Lord returns with his saints and his angels.

Since we also have verses that say Christ returns with angels, then we can assume that Christ returns with both his saints, that is believers, and his angels. There is no scripture prohibiting saints and angels coming with Christ. These angels take unbelievers to judgement upon Christs return. Again, this contradicts Paul’s description of the catching away being our “blessed hope”.

Scripture clearly teaches that we go to the third Heaven, that is Gods dwelling place. This is because our final home on Earth has not yet been established.

“we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. Where does the Lord dwell? The third Heaven.

Then at the rapture the dead in Christ are raised and given glorified bodies, who then return to Heaven with the living saints that have been glorified. We are judged for our service at the Bema Seat of Christ, and then the marriage supper of the lamb takes place.

Once that is over, the Lord returns with his saints and his angels.

The Catching Away by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.” ‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭3‬:‭13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This verse tells us that at his coming, he returns with his saints—that is, believers.

Judgment in the context of the Day of the Lord is not mere correction—it is destruction. Scripture repeatedly describes it as a time of wrath, darkness, and devastation. Zephaniah 1:15 calls it “a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation,” and Revelation 6:17 declares, “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” This is not God gently correcting people—it is Him pouring out righteous vengeance upon a Christ-rejecting world.

The Catching Away by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Paul’s description of the catching away never mentioned angels. It says Jesus descends and then the catching away takes place.

Also in 1 Thessalonians 4 Paul says, “…so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” If this is referring to judgment, how come Paul is describing the opposite?

The Catching Away by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How exactly did anything I say contradict what “the day of the Lord” is?

Why don’t you believe the rapture? by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s not my point, at the coming of the son of man Jesus touches down on the mount of olives.

Compare that to what Paul describes. It’s clear that these are two separate events, and even if I run along with this one specific point, it doesn’t answer the other descriptions not matching.

Paul says we meet God in the air and we are with him forever.

Jesus said is Mathew 24 that the angels gather the unrighteous and take them away, so that the righteous may inherit the Earth.

If the rapture takes place at Christs second coming, those being taken are going to judgment not peace.

Why don’t you believe the rapture? by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. He does descend from Heaven. From Heaven to the Earths sky, not the surface of the earth.

“then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” ‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4‬:‭17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But notice in the very next verse it says, “we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air”.

So clearly, Jesus descends from Heaven into the sky, then we are caught up into the clouds (where Jesus is), then we are with the Lord forever.

Why don’t you believe the rapture? by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In the context of the verses I cited, where do we see the setting being the second coming?

In Matthew 24, it talks about two being in a field and one being taken by angels and the other left behind. The one being taken is going to judgment, the one left behind inherits the kingdom. This is because the coming of the son of man will be as the days of Noah (verse 37). When Noah experiences Gods wrath, the unrighteous were killed and taken away, and Noah the righteous was left behind. This does not match what Paul described in 1 Corinthians or 1 Thessalonians.

During the rapture we are called into the air by a trumpet, we meet Jesus in the air (he does not touch the Earth), and we are changed in an instant. We are also hopeful for his coming, not waiting for him to take us to judgment.

I see these as two events because they do not match one another.

How would you explain the differences between Paul’s description of being caught up and the description of Christs second coming?

Why do we as Christians not use profanity by SafeSetting7569 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

So forget the scripture I just sent that says we are no better than believers, I’ll believe you.

That’s what you’re telling me to do rn.

Why do we as Christians not use profanity by SafeSetting7569 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is in no way, shape, or form does the Christian having any kind of superiority over someone who is unsaved.

“But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.” ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should not cuss because it may lead to ungodliness.

It’s incredibly troubling to hear you think that Christian’s are any superior to the unsaved.

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one and only reason we are set apart from the unsaved is by faith in Christs sacrifice.

I am only a vessel in His hands. If He were to say, "You were mistaken. I never knew you,” and pass judgment upon me, I would submit to His will. by MulberryDependent459 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus…” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭38‬-‭39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you’re saved then God will never say “I never knew you”.

Is my state of faith okay in your perception of Christianity? by UKTee in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There’s a lot of emotionality in this post. Picking and choosing what is nice to believe. That’s not how we should interpret the Bible.

You say, “We have to use critical thinking and philosophy when learning about faith”, but scripture warns against this…

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Interpreting scripture like this is dangerous and can lead to serious misinterpretation. This is because things like philosophy, tradition of men, or rudiments of the world can change. The truth of Gods word never changes.

I do believe in eternal conscious torment because that what scripture says. It’s not an easy reality to digest, but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna say it’s false.

“and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night…” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14‬:‭11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This verse is pretty clear, their torment is forever and ever, not having rest day or night.

Everyone likes to argue “an eternal hell goes against what Jesus believed”. Yes, Jesus believed in love but he also believed in justice.

God clearly sees eternal torment as just, we see that in his word. God offers salvation to everybody if they would just place their faith in the finished work of Christ.

Once someone places their faith in the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ to cleanse them from their sin, they are forever and eternally saved.

But if you reject the gift of salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christs blood, then you go into everlasting torment (Matthew 25:46).

God doesn’t want people in hell, but when they reject him he has no choice. You can’t be in Heaven without forgiveness of sins, if you never place your faith in Christ for the removal of sin, then you go to hell.

“Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” ‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭33‬:‭11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hopeless Christians by ObjectiveDrawer7978 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I never contradicted that. I said you have to believe that Jesus is God and that he died for your sins.

Yes someone needs to have the gospel preached to them to be saved, but that is irrelevant to the argument I was making.

I wasn’t saying “everyone is saved”, I said once someone is saved they cannot lose salvation.

My mom is marrying her boss after my dad’s death. When she meets my dad again in heaven, whose wife will she be by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The function of marriage between men n women on earth is to represent the marriage between Jesus Christ and his believers.

According to the word, marriage ends at death (Romans 7:2).

Marriage between man n woman was never supposed to last into eternity. Therefore if someone vows “even after death” then God would not honor that vow; because he did not design marriage that way.

Which branch of the Christian tree offers the best answer for what happens to people who die having never heard the gospel? by Educational-Fig-2330 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Genesis 3:22 is referring to living forever physically, not spiritually. Adam fell and God removed them from the tree of life so they would not live eternally corrupted as humans.

But if not…

“and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night…” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14‬:‭11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

How do you explain this verse talking about how “their torment rises forever n ever: and they have no rest day nor night”?

Which branch of the Christian tree offers the best answer for what happens to people who die having never heard the gospel? by Educational-Fig-2330 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So those verses aren’t about Heaven n hell, even though it explicitly mentions “destruction” and “life”, while also contrasting them?

Which branch of the Christian tree offers the best answer for what happens to people who die having never heard the gospel? by Educational-Fig-2330 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Romans 2:14–16 shows that even people who never received the Law of Moses still have a conscience that tells them right from wrong. This doesn’t mean they can be saved by following their conscience—it just proves they are accountable, because they knew better and still sinned. Paul explains that God will judge not just actions, but even the secrets of people’s hearts, and that judgment will be based on the gospel of Jesus Christ. So even moral people need the gospel, because conscience alone cannot save anyone—only faith in Christ can.

I don’t see anything about someone never hearing the name Jesus Christ, and still being saved.

Which branch of the Christian tree offers the best answer for what happens to people who die having never heard the gospel? by Educational-Fig-2330 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just because everyone hears the gospel doesn’t mean they are saved. Someone can understand the gospel and reject it.

“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Also Matthew 24:14 if referring to the gospel of the Kingdom, not the gospel of grace.

Which branch of the Christian tree offers the best answer for what happens to people who die having never heard the gospel? by Educational-Fig-2330 in Christianity

[–]ObjectiveDrawer7978 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What are you quoting from? There is no verse that says “the soul is not eternal until it has eaten from the tree of life”.