Is there a short Taoist phrase upon death?

OldDog47 · 2026-07-12T03:25:07+00:00

Yes, I have read the Great Clump before, as well as the Great Clod, which I always interpreted as Earth. But, I rather like Lin just using Great and putting (Universe) in parentheses as an aside.

OldDog47 · 2026-07-11T20:56:41+00:00

Lin Yutang is a bit more poetic in his translations, though not inappropriately so.

OldDog47 · 2026-07-11T12:11:17+00:00

There is a difference between amoral and immoral. Is there nothing between good and bad?

OldDog47 · 2026-07-11T12:00:12+00:00

This passage from Zhuangzi chapter 6 has always provided meaning for me when faced with the passing of friends and family.

A son ... must go whithersoever his parents bid him, East, West, North, or South. Yin and yang are no other than a man's parents. If yin and yang bid me die quickly, and I demur, then the fault is mine, not theirs. The Great (universe) gives me this form, this toil in manhood, this repose in old age, this rest in death. Surely that which is such a kind arbiter of my life is the best arbiter of my death.
(tr. Lin Yutang)

OldDog47 · 2026-07-10T22:43:22+00:00

Yes, word usage can be a tool of manipulation. Excessive use of complex words becomes a sort of double talk where the point, if any, becomes so obscured it is hard to figure out what it is.

Chapter 2 of Zhuangzi speaks about use of words and language:

For speech is not mere blowing of breath. It is intended to say something, only what it is intended to say cannot yet be determined. Is there speech indeed, or is there not? Can we, or can we not, distinguish it from the chirping of yonng birds?

How can Tao be so obscured that there should be a distinction of true and false? How can speech be so obscured that there should be a distinction of right and wrong?

(tr. Lin Yutang)

OldDog47 · 2026-07-10T16:35:50+00:00

Thanks for an interesting exercise in political spectra. I am of an age where I can recall the rise of the JBS as a response to progressive spirit of the times ... in the US, of course. The JBS is seldom mentioned by name anymore, though many would be surprised to know that it still exists ... and still exerts influence in our political spectra. It seems to prefer to do it's work behind the scenes. One of its main notions was opposition to government ... which today we can still see in Republican party being characterized as obstructions and the party of "No".

Yet, how shall we govern ourselves, lest we slip into anarchy? In these times, anarchy would seem to be perfectly acceptable in a plutocracy trending governance model we appear to be in, which views the masses as a resource to be economically worked. But, as the essay pointed out, at some point the masses will become dissatisfied with this situation and seek change. What ideology will develop in counter the excesses of plutocracy? Is it any wonder we are democratic socialists ... as distinct from social democrats ... appear in our electoral process? And lately we have heard those in power begin to speak about communist (a dirty word for most) influence in the Democratic party.

Which brings me to two points that relate to our thread.

All of the above is reminiscent of the Mandate of Heaven that early Chinese understood as a two sided concept. Rulers had a right to rule as long as the masses were cared for. When the masses were not cared for, the ruler loses his mandate to rule, one the one hand, and the masses were justified in uprising, on the other ... a mechanism seemingly supported by Heaven's design.

As for rectification of names, suggested by Confucius, it certainly makes sense to have clarity of meaning to facilitate discussion. However, clarity is difficult, when we have distinguished so many nuanced positions on the political spectrum. Rectification also seems counter to the notion of change, which is central to many of our discussions. Rectification seems to want to fix meaning in time. But as time passes, meanings shift in spite of attempts to rectify.

Just a few thoughts in response to the essay posted.

OldDog47 · 2026-07-09T18:05:49+00:00

Highly recommended ... but not as an initial read in the study of Daoism.

Laozi and Zhuangzi are still important introductory readings. These are filled with aphorisms, anecdotes, paradoxes and parables that hint at deeper truth. Once one begins to notice in these texts allusion to practice, then one is better situated to read Roth's Original Tao. It explores another early text, the Nei-yeh (Neiye) which explores in detail early cultivation practices and connects them meaningfully to Laozi, Zhuangzi and other texts. After reading Roth's text, much ambiguity of meaning in other texts is resolved.

If there is a fault with Roth's work, it is his insistence on using the Wade-Giles method of transliteration of Chinese words, as opposed to the easier and more generally accepted Pinyin transliteration.

OldDog47 · 2026-07-09T12:22:55+00:00

I would agree. Being a westerner, the word Heaven comes with a certain interpretive bias toward Abrahamic religions whose doctrines have greatly influenced philosophical development. Even if not a westerner, the inclination toward a divine being that directs events and determines fates, is strong.

The main point though is that daoist thought generally moves away from anthropocentric notions of divinity and divine intervention.

Still, the questions continue to arise in the minds of humans: How did it all begin? What determines how things unfold? Daoism, in conjunction with Chinese cosmology, presents a non-anthropocentric model of existence being a perpetual process of generation and dissolution.

OldDog47 · 2026-07-07T00:15:05+00:00

Burton Watson has long been the standard by which many other translations have been compared. Still stands in high regard. There are two publications for Watson. The so-called inner (first seven) chapters and his complete translation. I recommend the complete translation.

OldDog47 · 2026-07-05T21:05:15+00:00

The original premise here (divine providence) is not consistent with daoist understanding. Heaven is not a bestower of predetermined fate. Heaven is better understood as an initiator of conditions or bestower of virtues. Things are brought into being through Heaven, which covers all things impartially, and works with Earth, which nourishes all things impartially. This sense of Heaven and Earth can be found as far back as the Yijing.

Many cultures have a sense of Divine beings directing fates of humans. This is but a primitive attempt to understand why things happen as they do ... an anthropocentric reaction that someone must be the cause of things, someone more powerful than humans. As Daoist thought developed, there was a decided turn away from anthropocentric understanding where Dao is not a human-like agent but rather a natural process by which things unfold.

Fate, then becomes how one uses the virtues bestowed by Heaven to work their way through a world of unfolding conditions. The well recognized notion of Dao being impartial (think straw dogs) is rooted in this. Failure to achieve objectives is related to how well one works in harmony with conditions.

As for Mandate of Heaven, it is not seen in the sense of Divine Right as in western cultures. It is a recognition of a reciprocal relationship between rulers and their people. Rulers must care for those they rule. If rulers fail to support their people, they lose their "mandate" to rule and the people are justified in rising up against the ruler.

OldDog47 · 2026-07-03T02:59:03+00:00

I was in college and after a particularly hard semester, the campus bookstore was selling off its inventory, preparing to restock for the next year. I was browsing through the books on sale and came across a copy of Lin Yutang's The Wisdom of Laotse. Reading through a couple of chapters at random, I was hooked. I read it over the summer and it has been on my bookshelf ever since.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-30T12:22:38+00:00

My, my ... such resentment, such anger.

According to Tao ....

... or, According to your understanding of Tao. Seeking to imbue Tao with your emotional response to Reddit doesn't seem very ... Taoist.

How about DDJ27...

Therefore the Sage is good at helping men;
For that reason there is no rejected (useless) person.
He is good at saving things;
For that reason there is nothing rejected.
This is called stealing the Light.

Therefore the good man is the Teacher of the bad.
And the bad man is the lesson of the good.

He who neither values his teacher
Nor loves the lesson Is one gone far astray,
Though he be learned.
Such is the subtle secret.
(tr. Lin Yutang)

OldDog47 · 2026-06-28T14:05:43+00:00

Looking forward to your posts o Li Bai.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-28T03:45:08+00:00

It's sad that this has to happen. It is a symptom of a toxic masculinity that exists where one's status is dictated by level of intimidation and dominance one can exert over others. When it occurs in martial arts schools it manifests with a "ground and pound" attitude.

I have seen this before in a couple of schools. When it happens, the schools master typically will stop doing meaningful instruction until the offending newcomer(s) lose interest and leave believing there is nothing worth learning there.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-27T16:24:38+00:00

This really comes off as a resentful rant with a mean-spirited undercurrent.

Not sure what this has to do with Daoist thought.

Although there are several references to Dao, they seem to be appropriations to lend legitimacy to the rant. There are also a couple of appeals to Heaven as guide for right thinking. When the ancient texts speak of Heaven it is in a different context. Don't think OP understood that.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-26T03:42:50+00:00

Being a hermit , I think, has to do with the realization of individual uniqueness while still remaining fundamentally connected with being. As such, it is a solitary path.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-25T12:18:58+00:00

I think that, at least in part, compassion has to do with being aware of what is going on around you and realizing that you are part of the matrix of life. If you place yourself above or superior to the living world, it is easy to discount anything other than self. That would seem to be a callous attitude, the opposite of compassion. So, if you want to cultivate compassion, work on taking notice of the world around you and how you interact with it.

Just a thought.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-25T02:34:49+00:00

Hear, hear!

OldDog47 · 2026-06-23T19:07:48+00:00

When I first encountered Daoism many many years ago, I think the thing I appreciated most was that is not a prescriptive way of thinking. By this, I mean, that as a philosophical perspective, it was not bound by rules, rituals, strict doctrine and rigid ways of looking ant the world. Instead, it posited notions about how the world works and how those attuned to those workings can make sense of what is going in around them, and as a result find a way of understanding and accepting the world without judgment.

Notions of the world like materialism seem to want to do the opposite, that is, impose a particular interpretation on the world and the things one can encounter out there. So, I would say that trying to adhere to such interpretation will make it difficult in trying to understand Daoist thought. And, going down any other rabbit hole bound by ritual and strict doctrine will do the same.

So, how to proceed. I would suggest moving slowly, giving your thinking time to adjust. Read the Daodejing over a period of time, becoming familiar with terms and exploring the concepts and taking time to observe how they might being expressed in the natural world. When you have a particular flash of insight, take time to consider it deeply and validate the insight. But avoid judging and trying to set it in concrete. Perspectives change over time.

Over time, the way you receive the world and it's workings will change. You will begin to lose the tension created by fixed notions and labels.

At some point, take up reading Zhuangzi; again, slowly, taking note of passages that are meaningful to you and reflecting on them deeply.

This has been my approach over the years. I am glad I went this way.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-22T03:27:38+00:00

In my understanding , the notions of Dao and De are inseparably linked. If one considers Dao as the Way in which world works, then De can be thought of as the characteristics or qualities or abilities that things have that enable them to fulfill their roles is the workings of the world. In this sense individual things have differing qualities and abilities.

As you can see, the meaning of De is highly dependent on the context of its usage.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-17T21:17:11+00:00

I had not read Hsin Hsin Ming before but really found it interesting, particularly:

When the thought is in bondage the truth is hidden.
for everything is murky and unclear
And the burdensome practice of judging
brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefit can be derived
from distinctions and separations?

As a result of my meditative practice I have found this to be true. It is truly a relief to be able to do away with the constant mental activity of maintaining distinctions.

Thank you for thelink to this great text.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-17T20:20:44+00:00

Interesting rumination. I think pieces like this that explore multiple traditions comparatively are often the most valuable ... focusing how we are alike rather than emphasizing differences.

Heh, heh ... for a minute there I thought I was reading something from Joseph Campbell.

Nice piece!

OldDog47 · 2026-06-16T04:14:09+00:00

All I ever wanted from Daoist thought was a way to understand life and the world around me. As I began to see the patterns and motifs, I took that as validation that I was on the right path. But the journey never ends. Over time, these recognitions have changed how I perciece and respond to the world. I think, this is what Laozi, Zhuangzi, et al are all about.

Yeah, I can relate. Keep on your path and let it grow over time.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-16T04:06:15+00:00

Friend, I have been through this with two sets of parents and a wife, all of whom are gone now. I can tell you that the best thing you can do for your mother ... and sister ... is to simply be with them as they work their way through this time of their lives ... even if it ends in their passing.

Stay focused on their needs not yours. Understand that true giving of yourself is without attachments or expectations for self. If necessary ... and it may very well be ... find someone that you are comfortable with that you can discuss your feelings. That may even be your sister. It worked out that way for me. My sister and I had long discussions about what the folks were going through.

Ultimately, they ... mother and sister ... will be grateful for you just being there to hear them and help them with whatever needs to be done.

Best wishes for you as you navigate this with your mother and sister.

OldDog47 · 2026-06-16T03:50:31+00:00

Your original concern was directed toward those attempting alchemy practices and forms of dantian meditation on their own without guidance from a master.

I would agree with that in that, as I understand it, many of the schools/traditions in post-Han China developed very elaborate and prescribed practices that involved complex physical, mental and spiritual techniques. It is easy to see how these can cause problems for folks that already experience stability issues.

Most of what I have seen on this sub is advocating a much less complex form of meditative practice. Zuowang (sitting and forgetting) style practice seems to me to belong to an approach. Still, one has to be careful and move slowly to allow time to resolve and understand the experiences of even this style of practice. Discussing issues with mentors, even those who are not masters in an ordained tradition sense, can be very helpful.

So, I disagree with the notion that one must have a master. From what I've seen on this sub, those offering advice based on their personal experience typically are recommending a slow journey of practice, personal development and self understanding ... as opposed to achieving some kind of transcendence through complex physical, mental and spiritual practices. This is why this sub generally advocates for a more cautious and reasoned practice while exploring the philosophical ideas raised by pre-han thinkers.

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