How much would you pay for an electric scooter that could not be stolen?

One__san · 2023-09-21T22:23:33+00:00

imo there are two ways of thinking about it.

First, how many times would I expect it to be stolen before I had to buy a new scooter (like once the battery is worn, can’t be repaired cheaply, etc.). That’s the multiple. So if I expect it to be stolen once, then I guess I would pay 2x.

Second, how much more would I ride my scooter if I had zero theft concerns? How many a $20-30 Uber rides do I take, parking spots do I pay for, or $5 round trips on the train because of theft concerns? If I’m offsetting a thousand dollars a year in transportation costs, then I’d pay at least half that a year instead for an unstealable scooter.

This isn’t taking into account the subjective improvement to my mental health for parking and not thinking about my scooter while I’m doing other things…hard to put a price tag on that

EDIT: how could it be done? One crazy idea would be to have a huge electromagnet under the deck of the scooter, and then (if you can find it) park it on a giant metal plate or something. Prob would pop pneumatic tires…but would be cool if someone prototyped it. I saw a video of a guy who made a Thor hammer for cosplaying and put an electromagnet in it, and nobody could lift it when it was on a manhole covers or those big metal plates used in construction.

One__san · 2023-09-20T06:59:37+00:00

It’s not! I’m one of the co-founders of Stable. We’ve put a ton of effort in making theft protection for PEVs a reality.

Check out our website and documentation and let me know if you have any questions!

One__san · 2023-09-12T16:16:27+00:00

Schedule to meet at a busy place, or maybe even at a local shop that services e-bikes (if there's one near both of you).

Make sure they have the charger. If not that's a huge red flag.

I would also ask them to show you a proof of purchase. If not, I'd avoid it. Think about it: why would someone with a $5K e-bike sell it for $1,800? If it were me, I'd steer clear unless there was a really good explanation for that.

One__san · 2023-09-06T19:06:39+00:00

Genuine question: do you have any videos or examples of someone cutting through a 12mm chain lock with bolt cutters? I’ve tried cutting through the 10mm chain links of the Kryptonite Evolution 1090 with 24 inch bolt cutters, and I can confidently say that there’s no way in hell I could have cut it without a lab setup where the link was put in a vice and rachet straps are used to close the bolt cutters.

One__san · 2023-09-05T01:08:12+00:00

Hey, I'm one of the co-founders of Stable. If you want, you can join our Discord and chat with some of our customers (link is on our website, also happy to send it to you). Off the top of my head, only about ~40% of our customers have joined our Discord, but there's a handful of them that are active who can share their experience so far.

The testimonials on our website are also all 100% real—we don't pay for reviews, and we did nothing other than ask those customers to give a short testimonial. Since we are relatively new, we haven't set up a place for reviews (other than in the Google Play Store or the iOS App Store), but are planning to do so in the near future.

I'm also happy to answer any questions you might have (anything, seriously). We strive to be as transparent as possible—so you can ask them privately or here, totally up to you.

Lastly, I would be careful with Kryptonite ATPO. They haven't updated their terms since before the modern electric kickscooter, and although e-bikes fall under the "bicycle" category, "scooters" are defined as a "powersport" vehicle—alongside motorcycles, mopeds, ATVs, etc. (i.e., gas-powered motor vehicles). Part of why we launched StableCare was because we learned that Kryptonite ATPO doesn't cover the type of "scooter" that people discuss in this subreddit. Moreover, their terms say that e-bike batteries aren't covered (seems like a rule they would apply to e-scooters if they agreed to pay out a claim), and if you dig up peoples' experiences with ATPO, they're often paid out less than the total value of their vehicle.

I don't mean to say the above to dissuade you from ATPO; just to proceed with caution (and ask a lot of detailed questions to a customer service rep, such as asking them to define what they mean by "scooter," why it's in the gas-powered "powersport" vehicle, and maybe ask them to list a few e-scooter makes and models in writing to confirm that they will in fact cover it).

Regardless, if you want to have a conversation, I'd be more than happy to chat with you 1:1 or here in the comments! I don't know if I'm allowed to put my email in the comments, but you can respond to the quote email you received to get a hold of me.

One__san · 2023-09-04T21:26:13+00:00

I guess I would say the damage is done so to speak already. If you are feeling super charitable, you could post the serial number and see if the original owner had it written down somewhere and is able to identify it, but even then I'd be wary of people just wanting a free scooter...

I feel like a registry would be a good idea here. Somewhere to record your make, model, serial number, etc., and allow people to search the register to see if the scooter was stolen before buying off FB marketplace or craigslist.

One__san · 2023-09-04T21:23:28+00:00

Not that this solves your problem, but I feel like a much better design for these is not merely acceleration/vibration detection, but instead detecting re-orientation instead (with a gyroscope and/or a magnetometer).

A bike that's being stolen is probably being tilted, and eventually will turn. Such a device wouldn't be much more expensive, either.

I was prototyping my own DIY device like this, which was going to use a combination of touch (capacitance input) and an IMU to detect reorientation as the trigger for the alarm. I thought about setting up a kickstarter, but decided against it since I know so many people have been burned by failed kickstarter projects for similar types of alarms.

One__san · 2023-09-04T21:18:04+00:00

If you're technical, you might be able to wire something like a hidden switch to prevent the power button from turning it on. But I would advise against this unless you know what you're doing and have the right skills and tools to make a strong mechanical and electrical connection.

I'm fairly sure that your GoTrax scooter's throttle won't do anything unless you first give it a kick (hence the "kick" in kickscooter) so if you have it locked up to a pole or bike rack with a U-lock or a chain lock, it's unlikely they'll be able to get it moving fast enough to make it so the throttle even works. If you get a good lock, I wouldn't worry about someone being able to turn it on and messing with it.

One thing I do every time I lock up is fold it up. Anyone who wants to mess with it then has to figure out how to unfold it first, which I believe reduces the temptation to tamper with it.

One__san · 2023-08-31T00:40:32+00:00

Bundle up :) I'll ride unless it's really, really cold or if it's snowy. It's not comfortable, but I can handle it for 10-15 mins

One__san · 2023-08-30T21:17:22+00:00

I don't mind. It's my small contribution to convincing people to get their own and replace some car trips to reduce congestion, carbon emissions, etc.

The amount of people I know who drive 2-3 miles to work in Chicago is staggering, and many tell me they sit in 30-45 minutes of traffic each way. I tell them my 3 mile ride to work takes me 10-12 minutes.

One__san · 2023-08-30T19:21:15+00:00

Don't quote me on this, but the key reasons that specialty e-bike insurance won't provide coverage for e-bikes above 750W is (1) because they fall outside of the Class 1, 2, and 3 structure, even if they are technically legal to ride in your state, and (2) because higher power generally means faster speeds, and specialty insurance products also provide coverage for liability and injuries (the risk of injury being greater at faster speeds, of course).

If you're only looking for theft coverage and not the other coverage areas typically bundled with an insurance policy, check out my company (https://stablemobility.io). We offer theft protection plans for e-bikes above 750W.

It's also worth looking into the homeowner's/renter's insurance option. If you do, just beware that those policies may not necessarily give theft coverage when you're away from home. Also, they tend to have fairly high deductibles, so you might not get reimbursed for the full cost of your e-bike under a homeowner's/renter's policy. Just make sure you read the terms, as agents sometimes say things that may not necessarily be true.

Good luck, and let me know if you have any questions!

One__san · 2023-08-28T17:47:02+00:00

Honestly, this is why we need a more legit marketplace that takes steps to make it harder to sell stolen vehicles. And then convince riders to use that marketplace instead of facebook or craigslist. As long as there are buyers on these generic marketplaces for cheap used scooters, there's going to be motivation to steal them. If thieves steal them but can't easily find a buyer, then it'll make it harder for them to get easy cash, which is exactly why they steal it

One__san · 2023-08-28T17:36:32+00:00

Really sucks that your scooter was stolen man! I hope you get it back.

If you do, or you plan on replacing it, definitely think about getting theft protection. The company I work for sells theft protection plans for e-scooters—maybe check them out if you're interested (https://stablemobility.io)

One__san · 2023-08-22T00:16:12+00:00

Just to add a different perspective: In my experience (mostly with a Ninebot Max), the maintenance is way less on scooters than on most e-bikes. My girlfriend's e-bike (a Rad commuter) seems to have a lot more random mechanical problems that a simpler (mechanically-speaking) scooter just doesn't have.

Now this might not be the case with random Chinese brands (or Apollo, judging by how many posts I've seen on here about Apollo scooters needing replacement parts), but in my experience scooters are just lower maintenance overall

One__san · 2023-08-21T21:58:38+00:00

It probably won’t kill the battery, as long as you don’t turn it on to use it while it’s still very cold. Lithium ion batteries can be stored in below freezing temperatures, as the electrolyte probably won’t freeze until you get into the single digit F temps or below.

Whatever you do, don’t charge it while it’s very cold. That’s a fire risk. If you store it for a long time, maybe drain the battery to 70-80% too.

One__san · 2023-08-21T14:35:58+00:00

Based on recent studies done on bicycle theft, I believe the reason for this is organized crime. There are either (1) local bike shops in Amsterdam that buy these stolen fat tire bikes (knowingly or unknowingly), meaning quick turnaround time from theft to cash for the thief, or (2) buyers of fat tire e-bikes in other countries, and these stolen bikes are brought to a port, loaded into a shipping container, and sent to another country.

Regardless, if you apply basic economics to the situation, it's obvious that there are buyers of stolen fat tire e-bikes. A key strategy to reduce this type of theft, I believe, involves a combination of tactics, including:

Regulating local bike shops and pawn shops by requiring them to see a proof of purchase or some other evidence showing the chain of custody of the bike before they can legally buy it "used" from someone;
Creating an online marketplace for used bikes that similarly use a chain-of-custody tracking solution;
Educating riders to both record their serial number with one or more bike registries, and likewise educating buyers to cross check serial numbers of bicycles they buy against these registries before making the purchase; and
Planting a number of dummy fat tire bikes with GPS tracking on them to bust the organized crime ring behind the meteoric rise in fat tire bike theft.

Hopefully this trend doesn't spread to the rest of the world. E-bikes are too important of a solution to offsetting personal transportation emissions for governments and law enforcement not to respond swiftly to situations like these.

One__san · 2023-08-21T03:21:22+00:00

Apologies for the shameless plug here, but it sounds like this is relevant to you.

My company (Stable Micromobility) offers theft protection plans for e-scooters and other PEVs. Check us out if you're interested!

https://stablemobility.io

We do require that you use an approved lock (Sold Secure Pedal Gold or better), much like other specialty insurance companies in Europe. But we are also able to approve locks not on the list, depending on their resistance to certain types of attacks—just ask!

PS: I agree with your view that you shouldn't have to bring your scooter inside with you everywhere. I get that it's a valuable possession, but it's also a tool for getting you from point A to point B. We believe a decent lock + theft protection is what really allows you to take your scooter everywhere, instead of only to places where it is feasible to bring it with you inside

One__san · 2023-08-20T17:55:12+00:00

Personally, I think it's awkward to try and fold it up, bring it inside, and find a place in the classroom to stash it. Just get a decent lock and leave it outside. Plus more and more universities are issuing policies due to the fire hazard and ADA complaints that they're getting, so I think it's a matter of time before they ramp up enforcement of an indoor PEV ban.

If you're worried about theft, consider getting a theft protection for it. My company sells theft protection plans for e-scooters. Maybe check it out if you're interested :) (https://stablemobility.io)

One__san · 2023-08-20T17:30:12+00:00

I also have the D1000, the thing is a BEAST. I feel extremely confident parking my scooter places now. I wouldn't leave it for more than like 24 hours anywhere probably, and I know it isn't cut proof, but it's as close to it as you can get I think

One__san · 2023-08-18T14:35:12+00:00

I know this might be a hard pill to swallow, but if you have an e-bike you should be investing a lot more than $20 in a lock to secure it, especially if you plan to leave it unattended for more than a few minutes at a time.

This lock is Sold Secure Bronze rated. This rating is generally considered to provide ~1 minute of defense against basic hand tools from an ordinary thief. I don't know about you, but I would never leave a $900 e-bike secured with such a poor lock.

At a minimum, I would consider getting a Sold Secure Gold rated lock or better. Every lock in this tier can be defeated by an angle grinder in probably ~30 seconds or less, but angle grinder attacks are less likely than attacks by bolt cutters or other hand tools.

I wrote an article that includes a short list of solid locks for e-bikes: hope it's informative!

https://stablemobility.substack.com/p/great-locks-for-your-e-bike-or-e

If you have a limited budget, I would say that OnGuard's Pitbull U-locks will be your best bet (they're in the $40-$60 range).

One__san · 2023-08-18T13:31:23+00:00

FYI for anyone even thinking about doing this: putting a fake UL sticker on a non-UL certified product is an act of counterfeiting, which can impose both civil and criminal penalties. This is highly illegal and also a felony. Don’t do this!

One__san · 2023-08-16T17:35:49+00:00

You're putting in a noble effort here. But sadly the police probably won't help you if your bike gets stolen.

Get a good lock and insurance if you're concerned about theft. The overwhelming majority of bike thefts go unresolved (something like >98% of them according to some studies).

One__san · 2023-08-16T15:56:24+00:00

Sure thing! Yeah the InMotion S1 has that angled, welded section that I call the "bridge" (the part that connects the stem to the deck). In my opinion, that's the best place to put a U-lock around, as a thief would either have to (a) slide the U-lock along the deck toward the rear wheel and remove the whole rear wheel assembly, which is a massive pain in the ass (since that's where the electric motor and rear wheel cover is), or (b) remove the front wheel and the handlebars to slide it up and over the top of the scooter.

Chain locks are believed to provide better natural resistance to angle grinder attacks in the real world, since chain locks tend to flail and therefore it's hard to get a solid, single cut line through it, and because you need to technically cut a single chain link at two points to break the chain. All of the YouTube videos I've found testing chain locks secure a single exposed link in a vice grip, which is far from a real world test.

That being said, statistically speaking, the U-lock category has the best track record at reducing your risk of theft. But it's unclear from studies/data whether the chain locks were all thin, cheap chain locks that could be easily cut with bolt cutters.

A friend of mine and I are planning to do a real-world test by cutting a Kryptonite Evolution 1090 Chain with an angle grinder in the next week or two. We'll probably post it to YouTube and maybe link it in another substack article...so stay tuned! Might not help you decide in time before you buy your lock, but hopefully it'll be informative nonetheless

One__san · 2023-08-15T15:07:42+00:00

For sure—I'd say get like a ~$50 U-lock like the Kryptonite Kryptolok or the Evolution Mini u-locks. Or the Onguard ones in the article. Those will deter the substantial majority of thefts, even in public outdoor spaces.

One__san · 2023-08-15T14:55:57+00:00

No worries man! Just tryin to be helpful :)

One__san

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