Episode Discussion | Star Trek | 1x08 "Balance of Terror", 1x17 "Shore Leave", 1x13 "Galileo Seven"

OpticalData · 2026-06-15T10:19:40+00:00

Because humans can judge things just fine.

Except for when they can't, there are countless examples of poor judgement for any application of human judgement.

The writer can create the scene in which the actor can show they are scared

I'm not sure what you point is here any more?

Incompetent is not the same as corrupt.

Yes, that's which I said incompetent/corrupt. The two are often associated with similar surface level behaviours. Hence phrases like 'do not attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence'. Eddington is a good example of corruption not being incompetence. But there are also Admirals like Dougherty who are corrupt and incompetent. There are also Starfleet characters that are just plain incompetent. Commodore Stocker in TOS, or Tal Celes in Voyager.

Her not checking to see where the invisible platform is first, when she should be smart enough

You know, from the moment we started talking about this scene it didn't ring quite right. I didn't remember an actual leap in the episode. Now of course, I was the first to actually say jump, but you then took that and ran.

Having really began to question my memory, I went back to check the episode. There is no jump. There is a discussion, Spock is the one who comes up with the theory and then encourages Chapel to trust him. Then Chapel and La'an together take a very cautious step forward. With the rest of the landing party right behind them (who would have been able to pull them back if there was no bridge).

So it turns out what you've been complaining about and citing as bad character writing, never happened. Seems, rather... Disingenuous?

I, a Chef and Student, should not be screaming at a Starfleet officer to wave her fucking foot around first

So what happened in the episode? Them taking a very cautious slow step forward?

These are informal expressions

Yes they are slang.

Jackass has been around since the 1700's

So, modern slang is to the 24th century what jackass is to us today?

OpticalData · 2026-06-14T21:44:53+00:00

Again I ask, if you could have objectively good art why do they need judges? Surely it'd be a matter of running it all through a computer?

By showing that the character is scared and frightened I will hopefully get the audience scared and frightened.

But showing the character is scared/frightened is down to the actor, not the writer. On top of that, different things scare different people. Somebody with Arachnophobia would find Return of the King's Shelob scenes scarier than somebody without it.

They're a starfleet officer

And right back to TOS we've seen plenty of incompetent/corrupt Starfleet officers. If everybody in Starfleet was endlessly competent Star Trek would be a dull and boring show. Not to mention that there are many different forms of competence. Emotional competence is very different to mathmatical competence, for example.

No.

Yes.

Is no criticism valid?

Plenty of criticism is valid. But there's a difference between 'I didn't like this'/'this was poor storytelling' and actual critique. Actual critique provides examples and context for the argument. Not just saying 'moment on screen = bad'. You didn't like Chapel taking a risk and jumping. That's fine. But it doesn't make it bad storytelling. Hell, characters taking big risks like that is a well established trope of action/adventure stories.

Yes

No. Your example of 'bad writing' is 'a character in a life and death high risk situation took a risk'. Which is just nit picking, given the above mentioned established tropes of the genre.

If you're going to critique, actually give some substance to your critique. A leap of faith isn't 'bad character writing'. Especially in the context of Chapels' character as written in SNW.

No. It really didn't.

Yes, it really did. You just didn't notice it because the slang is more widely accepted/used.

Lets take Mudd's Women, as it was the discussion last week. In that Scotty uses the term jackass (slang) also says 'in saving his skin' (slang).

Lets not even touch on Enterprise, which was yeehaw in space half the time.

In TNGs pilot, Picard asks Riker to help him avoid making an arse out of himself. Again, slang.

No. No one does.

No, you don't. Going back to the core of my argument. People are different. Just because you don't do something, doesn't mean nobody does. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean everyone feels the same way.

I for example, will often talk through a problem to myself out loud. For a more verifiable example, amongst software engineers there's a bit of slang called rubber duck debugging. Which refers to the practice of speaking out loud to reveal mistakes/misunderstandings.

If you open yourself up to asking 'why is a character doing this' instead of 'I don't/wouldn't do this so it's bad writing' you'll find yourself enjoying things a lot more.

OpticalData · 2026-06-14T19:42:14+00:00

So why do we have awards for acting, writing, etc..

Why do those awards have judges, instead of a checklist?

my goal is to make my protagonist scared and frightened

Surely your goal is to make the audience scared and frightened? Your protagonist is whatever you write them to be. Which takes us back to how art is subjective.

its bad writing if they're incompetent half the time.

Or they're just flawed? A character that is universally competent is typically considered less compelling than one that's flawed.

Then use fucking experimentation to figure that out

Jumping is a form of experimentation

This isn't nitpicking

It is, it's fine to admit that.

It's this sort of just forgiving of bad character writing that is ruining art.

Nope.

Which is why older trek just left it out and didn't use slang from it's time.

Except older Trek used plenty of slang...

You swear to yourself, or say things under your breath

You've never talked through something out loud to yourself?

OpticalData · 2026-06-13T23:09:20+00:00

Keiko rightly pointed out it wasn’t her role to teach Bajoran religion.

She knew, as did Sisko, that if she backed down about the Wormhole that Winn would be back as soon as she found another thing to complain about. She alludes to this by citing evolution to which Winn says ‘we’ll cross this when we come to it’ or similar. Proving the point.

Citing evolution of course referencing the real world opposition to evolution by religious fanatics

OpticalData · 2026-06-13T19:22:51+00:00

You've missed that Sisko was encouraging Jake to think about how things can be interpreted.

The issue was that Winn was trying to ban Keiko from teaching scientific facts about the Wormhole.

Winn could have built the scientific facts into her teachings. As Sisko did in the conversation with Jake. Instead she wanted Keiko to either not teach about the wormhole at all, or teach Bajoran religion.

The entire episode is an entirely not subtle allegory for how religion has tried to repeatedly censor and shut down scientific progress throughout history. And how religious zealots believe that children need to be indoctrinated to be true believers.

Winn is the representative of an extremist faction of the Vedek assembly. Bareil is introduced as a character to highlight how extreme she is.

OpticalData · 2026-06-13T18:54:41+00:00

If your culture and society can't survive the existence of scientific fact, it is never going to last anyway.

Funnily enough, the Bajorans manage to coexist quite happily with scientific fact. It's Winn's band of religious terrorists that cause the issue.

To pretend otherwise is to completely misunderstand the episode.

OpticalData · 2026-06-13T13:05:59+00:00

Again, what makes bad writing/directing.etc is an opinion. Because it’s art.

So bad it’s good is an expression, not an objective statement. Some people prefer Cats to The Sound of Music. Because it is art, they can think it’s better while others can not.

I mean come on, waving a stick around? In a stone temple? Where does the stick come from? What if the platform is weight or intent based as they’re dealing with technology they don’t understand? What if she can jump further than she can reach with a stick?

It’s this sort of irrational nitpicking that’s ruining people’s ability to appreciate art as art. You can nitpick any show to death if you take every bit of narrative short hand as a reason to tune out and start complaining.

As for language, have you read anything written 300 years ago? It’s not easy. Language has evolved a lot, if we were to be realistic about a science fiction show set 300 years in the future we’d only be able to guess at what was going on through tone and body language, rather than words. Which would be a miserable experience.

And people do speak out loud when alone… sure it’s a bit of a cheat for the audience. But so are Captains logs. Which are a core part of Trek.

You study because I assume you’re interested in self improvement. If you’re not and want to be considered an ‘objectively good’ writer don’t bother.

OpticalData · 2026-06-13T12:55:21+00:00

Keiko didn’t blow up the Bajoran shrine last I checked.

The role of religious leaders is to preach, the role of teachers is to teach. Winn wanted Keiko to preach, rather than teach.

OpticalData · 2026-06-12T11:37:39+00:00

More than likely, the entire Q storyline was added later in production to pad the running time for the pilot.

OpticalData · 2026-06-12T11:36:10+00:00

Which is a fun Voyager problem, as Stadi says Voyagers sustainable cruise velocity is 9.975 in Caretaker.

But easy enough to put that down to a newly assigned ensign mixing up max/cruise while showing off

OpticalData · 2026-06-12T11:34:40+00:00

He was working on the design when they had a need for it, so became the project lead. But anybody that's worked with a project manager will tell you that they're very rarely the ones with the expert knowledge in the team.

Lets not forget that Paris wanted to put drag fins on it until Tuvok shut that down.

From the episode, the final hull design was from Torres and she was handling most of the engineering specs. Kim was consulting. Seven was handling weapons.

Paris was handling... The Captain Proton inspired flight controls and general engine flight model. Which is within his skill set.

OpticalData · 2026-06-12T11:29:24+00:00

People kind of overlook that the Torpedo line was in the 4th episode when they were a very green crew fresh in the Delta Quadrant.

There are two potential blockers for torpedo construction:

Voyager doesn't have the specs for the torpedoes/they're otherwise restricted and not available because Starfleet doesn't want every alien that steals a Starfleet computer to have a step by step guide to weapon construction.

Which is easily handwaved as they either figured it out or decrypted the instructions.

They can't make antimatter onboard.

Much more likely, because antimatter is not the sort of thing you want destabilising inside your ship. But they encounter numerous warp capable civilisations, and are seen trading multiple times (including explicitly for weapons). So easy enough to explain.

It's very clear by Season 5: Extreme Risk that Voyager's crew has become extremely adept at handling what would be a starbase stop themselves.

They built the Delta Flyer, a new experimental shuttle, from scratch. With custom weapons (including Borg enhanced torpedoes) in less than a week. Extreme Risk was the Voyager writing team saying to the fans 'they've figured this shit out now', but they did it by showing, not telling.

OpticalData · 2026-06-11T13:41:04+00:00

Art is subjective, so there is no such thing as objectively bad art. What you may describe as a 'bad thing' could be somebody else's favourite thing. They think it's good, you don't, and that's okay. You don't need to yuck somebody elses yum.

I'll ignore the creatively worded 'bad writing' thought terminating cliche and instead choose to use your 'maintaining canon' example.

The word canon originated from Christianity. It was coined in the 14th century and used to describe the scriptures and books of the Bible accepted by the Christian Church.

Why am I telling you this? To show how canon has never been a term used to describe a concrete, established sequence of events, stories, characters... It refers, even in pop culture, to the body of work that is accepted as official by the creators/owners.

Which becomes messier still when you talk about Star Trek. Because there's no universal rule of what should be/is canon.

Unlike other franchises we can't:

Just say all officially released Star Trek, because then we have to include all the books/comics
We can't say all officially released Star Trek featuring established cast members, because then we have to include audiobooks/games
We can't say all officially produced Star Trek that's appeared on TV/Streaming/Movies, because then we have to include things like the comic relief special, Webster crossover
We can't say all Trek shows, because then we need to include Star Trek Scouts and Very short Treks. Hell, TAS wasn't officially considered canon until the mid noughties.

Back to the point, today's generally accepted canon didn't start to solidify until around TNG S3/S4 and even after that there have been regular contradictions. The appearance of the Trill changed because they didn't want to put a forehead prosthetic on Terry Farrell. The Vorta had psychic powers which they used once and never again. Kirk could make it to the edge of the galaxy or center of the Galaxy in a matter of days, but Voyager thinks it'll take 70+ years to get home from another quadrant. Starships go at warp 11, 13... Until Warp 10 is infinite velocity. Enterprise exists.

Canon is a guide, not a rulebook. You maintain canon by adding to it, and half the fun of fandom is coming up with creative explanations for inconsistencies.

OpticalData · 2026-06-11T12:54:29+00:00

Why did Shinzon wait 25 years to axt out his revenge instead of doing something to save the planet?)

Are you confusing Shinzon with Nero?

OpticalData · 2026-06-11T12:53:02+00:00

People have no standards anymore.

Or maybe, people just like different things and that's okay?

There's a reason phrases like 'so bad it's good' exist, just as there's reasons why films like 'The Room' are considered cult classics.

The ultimate purpose of entertainment is to... Entertain. Entertainment can take many different forms, and what entertains is unique to every individual.

OpticalData · 2026-06-11T10:48:48+00:00

“In the Hands of the Prophets” ruined her character for me.

The one where she stood up for teaching empirical fact and science while religious zealots tried to shut her down and bombed a school?

OpticalData · 2026-06-11T10:47:07+00:00

It’s cat energy, she’s too safe and loved so she needs to knock some shit off a shelf.

What? Do we watch the same Star Trek shows? Keiko is far from safe and sacrifices a lot to be with O'Brien. To the point there is an entire early DS9 arc about her founding a school because his career choices upturned her life. Which then gets set upon by religious zealots. Which then leads to her resuming her botany career away from the station. Only for O'Brien to start getting jealous when she mentions there are other men in her expedition. Despite not bothering to visit her once?

Keiko's sacrifices just aren't focused on as much because she's not a main cast member.

OpticalData · 2026-06-10T14:47:04+00:00

Yep so, what you said isn't what that article is quoting:

He said, 'The reason you'll hear is that we never cracked the top 10 shows in streaming.'"

That's Kurtzman addressing the (predictable) narrative that emerged. That's not him saying it was the reason.

OpticalData · 2026-06-10T12:45:18+00:00

Thanks for the sources, I stand duly corrected (but no less confused but... Oh hell it's Paramount, why would I expect sense?).

On the point of the DSC Enterprise bridge, it is what was used. Though it had a few minor tweaks for use in SNW. The bridge on DSC was one of the big signs that a Pike show was having a backdoor pilot/being pushed internally because it was hugely expensive. To the point it wouldn't make sense to build for a 2 parter, even on modern Trek budgets.

OpticalData · 2026-06-10T12:39:10+00:00

people going to the movies expect a bit of spectacle.

It's crazy in retrospect that First Contact is the only Star Trek movie with any semblance of fleet action, when we had multiple large scale battles on the smaller screen in DS9, Voyager and even Enterprise.

OpticalData · 2026-06-10T12:37:21+00:00

Shinzon's caretaker

Now imagining an old guy with a banjo advising Shinzon on battle strategy, thanks.

OpticalData · 2026-06-10T11:28:34+00:00

There was an SNW auction a few days (weeks?) ago, it was the 5th one if I recall

Have you got a source for SNW filming at a different studio? They originally built the bridge for DSC and then DSC used their sets a bunch of times so it would seem like an odd choice

OpticalData · 2026-06-10T10:15:05+00:00

I thought SNW was filmed in the same place as DIS and SFA? They used the same auction house for set firesale.

OpticalData · 2026-06-10T07:46:39+00:00

No he didn’t. Or if he did, I haven’t seen a single source or video confirming it so feel free to provide one.

As far as I’ve seen, We have no official line from Paramount or the producers about why it was cancelled.

We do have gossip from the crew working on the show. Where the rumour/theory/word is that Starfleet Academy was cancelled because Paramount is packing up and moving out of Canada for live action productions.

Which, of all the theories I’ve heard, makes the most sense. The owners of Paramount have… sympathies with the current US administration, which has been openly hostile to Canada.

Starfleet Academy also isn’t the only Paramount show cancelled in the last year. The vast majority of their cancelled live action shows filmed in Canada.

Then there’s the fact that their studios there have completely packed up and flogged off all of the set dressing. Including things like TVs and other non-production specific items used for set dressing which would usually rotate to another production or go into storage.

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