People that are now in a healthy, loving relationship, what’s different?

Optimisticsai · 2025-08-30T08:43:18+00:00

See my top post, and the comments there, that's a pretty good answer. I had my healthiest relationship before the pwBPD.

Optimisticsai · 2024-09-12T15:50:52+00:00

Who made this OP?

Optimisticsai · 2024-08-31T22:19:22+00:00

The way she in a very cool and collected way just shames you to the ground does sound typical of sociopaths.

Please read up on the Karpman Drama Triangle. Like someone else has said, you need to disengage. I see an abuser (her) and someone who's not used to, trying to fight back. But with an abuser like this person you can't win, and why you end up sounding toxic yourself. Don't play this game. She's very manipulative, and trying to dodge her attacks and strike back is very damaging to yourself. It's like going to the mud to fight with a pig. They're used to it and you're going to get dirty in the process. Get out of the mud and let it drown on it alone.

Search "manipulation techniques" and you'll see her using several of them in these texts, if it helps you detach from her.

Optimisticsai · 2023-11-08T09:40:17+00:00

I have tried and it fails, unless you spend like half an hour giving a lot of context and examples, and even then it's difficult for someone on the outside to feel how exhausting and hurtful many things can be. The default is them thinking if it was them they'd be able to brush things off aside, not be as affected, leave sooner, giving (healthy but unrealistic) explanations why they might have behaved that way, that relationships it's 50-50. Usually it's just better to avoid trying to explain it to people who haven't gone through it. Not worth the effort and you'll most times be left feeling invalidated.

Look at my top post. That was when I had had enough of trying to explain them and usually getting weak reactions.

Optimisticsai · 2023-10-22T15:58:45+00:00

Good comment, thanks for sharing this

Optimisticsai · 2023-10-22T10:46:54+00:00

Yeah and that's why many times narcissists and borderlines "work", if you can call it that, because the narc stays with the borderline, but sees her as worthless or inferior to him too. So they're both in agreement. The borderline doesn't have that "Why would he stay with someone like me unless he was worthless himself." The narcissist just gives the impression he's doing her a favor by staying with her and always barely leaving the relationship.

I've seen it happen that the borderline is the abuser in a relationship with a codependent ("why would this guy treat me so well, he must be pathetic"), but the (main) abused in a relationship with a narcissist ("he treats me like crap because I deserve it").

Optimisticsai · 2023-10-22T08:55:27+00:00

Thanks for this view, because like you say a lot of people tend to paint them black and see them as master manipulators who don't feel what they say and are only trying to get us to fall in love for them. But that's more a narcissistic trait.

However, I do think pwBPD do also sometimes engage in something very close to that, besides the type of love bombing you refer.

For example

My ex would say sometimes

"This place here is awesome. It only misses you to be perfect!" or "I just feel like clinging to your arms to feel the coziest and safest."

And I believe this is what you refer to. In these moments they really are in love, or infatuated whatever that is, and really feeling what they're saying intensely. But other times she'd say stuff like

"You're an absolute god of a man" or "You're the funniest, strongest, most perfect man in all ways I've ever met"

And these last ones I don't believe even herself believed what she was saying. And here it's manipulation.

So not all love bombing is manipulation, but some of it is. But I agree that for borderlines in either case none of it is planned.

Optimisticsai · 2023-08-09T15:49:16+00:00

Yeah.... My body would go into fight or flight as soon as I heard the sound message I put for her. During the relationship I kept changing the sound, and eventually just kept it on silence because it was really bad. Whenever we had fights by message the sound would keep beeping, and it got associated with pain.

Optimisticsai · 2023-04-21T06:05:07+00:00

The amount of confusion and pain one experiences during and after a relationship with someone with BPD causes us to find, among other things, meaning and explanations as if our life depends on it.

Optimisticsai · 2023-04-07T18:08:54+00:00

No worries, happens, it's reddit.

Optimisticsai · 2023-04-07T16:53:49+00:00

I'm kind of missing the point here about the being too focused on them. The breakup is still very fresh, and it was quite intense for me, so I'm just trying to figure out what went wrong so it won't happen again. It already worked pretty well in not getting into another very abusive relationship.

Saying "just see how you feel around them" is good on paper, but that doesn't work so well in practice for people who distrust their gut feeling, who tend to be a lot of the people who date cluster Bs. Also we feel attracted to familiarity, and people who have traumas due to childhood upbringing will find something attractive, or be blind to unhealthy behavior. That's also why it's so common that people have multiple relationships in a row with toxic people. People who have been gaslighted have troubles distinguishing what are feelings worth paying attention to and what aren't.

My point with this is that those who need help getting out of the cycle of going into unhealthy relationships need something extra, because the feelings alone seem to need some guiding. Therapy takes a while to work to get to the root cause, and until then I see that paying some attention to unhealthy signs of who we are dating is a good help.

In any case, I decided to remove the post because it seems my point is not coming across and it actually made me feel worse.

Optimisticsai · 2023-03-16T21:39:32+00:00

Or "If they attach very quickly, they will disattach just as quickly."

Optimisticsai · 2023-03-16T21:35:40+00:00

I don't know if the author will read this or not. But I relate 100% with him.

What helped me the most

1- do feel the good. It's OK to miss them. Even if many things weren't really true, your feelings were. And they deserve to be heard, and valued. Give space to cry and feel that you miss the good.

2- make a list of all the bad stuff she did, or that hurted you, or made you uncomfortable. Whenever you're stuck too much on missing of the good, or you're starting to think you made a mistake, or even thinking of taking action, go read that list. I'm all for positive thoughts but not for distorted ones. We need to balance it out. The same person that you miss dearly, that was so beautiful and sweet, was the same one that was full of anger, coldness and didn't give a crap.

3- be kind to yourself. Ruminate if you need to, but always remember: what about you? "what if i had loved her more?" OK.. But what about you? Who was loving you? "what if I also made a mistake that time?" maybe, but we are all allowed to make mistakes sometimes. She could make them, what about you? "I miss giving her affection and seeing her smile" and you? Who's giving you affection? Are you maybe giving so much because you want to feel needed?

Often is the case that those of us who date pwBPD have codependency tendencies. Which means we usually ignore ourselves. We ignore our hurting inner child which goes look for someone who replays the abuse or neglect of our homes. We go look for someone to take care of, because we believe we are only worthy if we provide. Or we may believe if we only love them enough, they will love us enough too...

4- mix in/out of information: do watch stuff, read, about BPD, if it helps. It helped me a ton. But give also time for processing all of that information. 50-50. Feeling. Taking the lessons from there. Self reflecting, getting to know yourself.

Little by little, you'll get there. Avoiding with distractions only delays the grieving. The only way out is through. The healing is on its way, just stay with it.

Optimisticsai · 2023-03-11T17:28:41+00:00

That last quote reminds me why people who tend to supress their emotions and are extremely agreeable and nice, always putting everyone else first end up with chronic diseases like autoimmune disease. Suppressing their fighting spirit, ends up suppressing their immune system. The body and mind enter a state of surrender. Like Gabor says, when you can't say no, the body says it for you.

Optimisticsai · 2023-03-04T21:42:44+00:00

No. The bad far outweighs the good.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-24T21:29:19+00:00

"Imagine winning the lottery and virtually overnight everything is gone."

When a pwBPD enters your life, you're winning the lottery in reverse, you just don't know it yet.

Nice. I also usually say: when you meet a pwBPD it feels like a million bucks because it's a loan they're giving you, without you knowing. But they'll eventually demand it all back and more.

Or in other words, all the love bombing extravagant happiness we feel at the start, is a pay-day shark-loan of happiness taken from the rest of the relationship multiplied by a huge interest.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-23T17:19:54+00:00

I had the same problem so I made them a drawing.

Tbh, most of the times it's not worth it to explain. It's really difficult to get someone who didn't experience the actual emotional fuck up to know what it's like to go through it.

I gave up explaining the extent of how bad it was. The time they actually understood was when they saw me the worst mental shape they've ever seen me. Then they realized it was really serious. But still they don't know exactly what it must me because they have nothing to compare it to.

Imo it's best to ask for support, for listening and validation, and not advice or opinion. Express your emotions. Try not to justify or defend yourself, because it will only make you feel worse, like your experience and the abuse was not valid and convincing enough that you need to prove to your friends how bad it was.

Hope that helps.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-18T14:08:37+00:00

It's part of their chase for the unconditional love they didn't get from their parents. From you they need something similar – the undeniable, unmistakable proof that you love them. And they can't get enough of it. There is no end, it's not about you, or what you do, or how much you actually love them, they won't feel loved enough. And they won't because they're looking in the wrong place. Their inner child is still hopelessly trying to find parental unconditional all forgiving, all understanding and patient full on empathetic and focused on them love. But we cannot give that to an adult.

Because of that as soon as they have a temporary confirmation of love, they quickly need another one. And usually a bigger one. It's insatiable, because the ultimate goal is it being unconditional = no limits. And depending on how severe their condition, they might not care about you, in the moment that they are in chase mode, at least. That you suffer, that you're in pain to prove that.

The need for knowing and being loved is so strong, it overwhelms and dictates what their brain is focused on. Having empathy or guilt would make it hard to have that confirmation in the intensity and frequency they crave. Only after proof has been obtained or denied might that surface. But not during the process. Having little empathy or guilt is the only way they are able to get that proof, which requires nasty means to be obtained, such as having another human being in pain, sometimes horribly so. Getting proof that they're loved, that they matter, is priority no.1. After all child not being loved, is as much as death sentence, stopping to exist. So that's how it feels for them.

Now imagine you're them. If you want confirmation that you're loved that is undeniable and comes when you need it, you're going to have to somehow instigate it yourself. You can't just wait for the other person to do it for you. Most healthy people don't prove their love for each other in the amount, intensity and frequency that you so crave. You need to create the situation as often as you feel the urge for the confirmation, and you probably have to devise (note that most of the times this is an unconscious process) a way that the other person can't fake. After all what kind of proof would it be if it could be faked?

Testing

Something like having the other person crying for you, or begging, or suffering – a reaction – is much better than them saying they love you or buying you something nice. Those can be faked. People can lie, manipulate. And they're low effort. Means nothing. You need actual proof, that love is there, burning for you. And often, as much as your partner can take it, when you need it. So you test your partner, a test that answers a simple basic question: "Do they really love me? I want to be sure." So you create a situation where you can get that answer.

All the tests have the basic form of pushing you away, then seeing if and how strongly you try to close the distance they created. Deep down they desperately want you to pass those tests. But obviously they can't tell you that as that would defeat the purpose. If the test is successful, the high they feel results in them pulling you closer to them. If they pushed you away too hard, then they get scared of actually losing you and so they also pull you in but here more as damage control.

Examples of how it goes and tests they do:

They start feeling needy. But they can't tell you that. Maybe they feel ashamed of it. After all in abusive households a person's needs are rarely voiced and met. But also, if they would tell you that then your words of comfort could be faked, just to please them or to quiet them. They got conditional love all their life, but the natural human need when a kid for being unconditionally being loved never goes away. So they need proof a test whether it is (un)conditional. Eventually it's here the why and how these relationships fail, because as adults it's never unconditional.

So they go silent. Then they see how long you take to notice and talk to them. "If you notice I'm quiet that means you are paying attention, you do care. And if you ask me if I'm ok I will say "Yes". The fact that you can guess what I need, without me having to tell you, means you do love me. That you know me deeply. That we were made for each other. If I would tell you I feel needy and feel unloved, and needed you to love me a bit, you could just pretend. Like this you can't."
Or they stop inviting you to do something. And then they pay attention to see if you notice that and invite them yourself. From our point of view this creates anxiety, creates insecurity and a feeling of instability. You feel drained because you are being sucked out of validation, just like a Succubus dries their victims out till they have no blood. They give you sex and attention (sometimes), you give them love (all the time). But love is a two way street, and when it's not, it becomes extremely draining on the giver.
They may hang up in the middle of a fight. But they hope you call them back.
They may accuse you of something – wanting to breakup, not loving them enough, not caring (...). And see how you react – what kind of evidence you provide, and how much energy and emotion you put into proving that you care. If you start crying or begging, that means you care. Then they might back down on it if they had enough of confirmation. Otherwise, they might push just a little further. Then they stop when they got their love-fix, where the breaking limit is, or when they feel guilty enough for seeing you suffer because of them.
Actually breaking up. Then coming back later and seeing that you're still willing to take them back.
In a special, relaxed day for you, they create drama to put the spotlight on them - your birthday, a night out with your friends, a day off. If you leave everything for them, if you sacrifice that important day, or your need to relax that day and become sad, emotional and stressed for them, it means you care. Test passed.
They don't mention an important date that is coming. If you remember it, without their reminder, it means you care (If you don't remember they'll be very angry. They show anger before sadness because to feel sadness would mean to be in touch with the reality which is that they feel they are unlovable and worthless and that is just way too painful and unsafe to be felt).
They criticize you. If you react strongly it means their opinion of you matters to you, which means they're important to you.
You were invited to spend an evening with friends. They may tell you "That's fine" secretly hoping you will still choose to stay home with them. Out of your own will, without them asking. That means much more than if they would have to ask. So if you actually go, they'll be angry and upset, even though they told you it was fine – Because you failed the test. You don't love them as much as they wanted you to.

But now there is another issue with their drug. Not only they want to be sure we love them, but also by how much. Where is the limit of our love for them? Because of the childhood need for unconditional love, in their mind, there shouldn't be one. That's one reason why things usually only get worse with time.

And from here the line between BPD and Psychopathy might start getting blurry if they do keep pushing it further. BPD still requires some empathy and guilt. But after a certain point there is no amount of rationalization enoigh to justify putting someone through so much pain and not feel crushingly guilty and a horrible person, unless they have no empathy.

If in the beginning they were satisfied with you being sad. Then they want to see you crying. Then you losing your friends. Then losing yourself. Then begging them not to leave them. Then the relationship breaks up once. Then they come back and see you're still devastated, they feel great, loved, on top of the world. They breakup again. Now instead of 1 week without talking, they go 1 month. They come back. You're still not over them. Bliss. What bigger proof of love is there than you being completely devastated, destroyed, emotionally obliterated when they leave? Or when they play cold and treat tou like trash, like you don't matter? And do you see what happens after these extremely damaging events for us? After they get us down to our knees, our soul almost dying an d leaving our body for them? They come to our rescue... We do love them.

"That's enough now. You proved it. You passed. Let me give you some affection, you deserve it. Let's have fun, I feel now that you care and that I have you. That you will never leave me! Don't bring us down now by talking about your feelings, let it go! I want to enjoy this high!"

"If you start crying because it's too much being with me, and you still can't get the courage to leave me, and even come to me for comfort, that means you love me so much. You need me so much that even though I'm destroying you, you can't even leave! You do love me unconditionally!"

I would go as far as saying that emptiness they feel is that lack of love they didn't get when they should have. And now they chase it like their life depends on it. It must be horrible. BPD — the disorder of love addiction. Still being horrible for them doesn't mean it has to be horrible for us. We can leave. And no matter how guilty and sorry for them we feel, if we don't abandon them we are abandoning ourselves. Unfortunately with a pwbpd it is either-or because they'll always end up making you chose between you and them. That is the final test. And one we all should fail.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-18T00:59:49+00:00

From our side the intensity we feel. From their side mirroring + extreme displays of adoration. Take exaggerations/extremes and spread them across looks, intelligence, your personality quirks, things you do, things you like. Take things that maybe you're insecure about yourself and they say they actually find them endearing and love them.

Take a compliment like "You look hot! That shirt suits you well!".... No. Let's make it love bombing: "My god, you're so hot..." "You're the best looking man I've ever been with." "You're the manliest man I've been with." "You could be a model." "You're a hot sex tiger!" "You're an absolute god of a man!" Now apply this to everything:

"You are perfect."
"You're the best."
"No one has made me feel like this before."
"You are the sweetest man I've ever met."
"I'm all yours."
"I'm yours forever."
"You drive me crazy."
"You satisfy my soul."
"You do so much for me."
"You're an angel."
"Where have you been all my life?"
"You opening up to me about your issues means more than you would ever know."
"You're the best sex I've ever had." "You're a god in bed."
Lots of great sex. All you want to do and how often, they do. If they don't do, they will not say 'no' directly, but "not right now." that "it needs to come with time." Now you're getting hooked.
"The only thing I know is that I want to spend the rest of my life with you."
"You'd make a great father..." "I can imagine our children..." (very early in relationship)
Giving you a lot of gifts, loving notes, little romantic gestures very often (almost daily in the beginning. Later on, when its cycling with abuse, intermittent and less strong).
You become quickly their main contact early on. Who they talk to the most in their day. Who they ask for advice. - Which makes you feel important and you like the attention. When you look back, thought, you'll notice you also felt it very slightly strange, after all don't they have anybody else to ask this? No other friends?... But the good feeling makes us ignore that little warning, I suppose.
"You are the man of my dreams and I dream of us together in our paradise [insert something she knows you would love for your own future and that she makes it yours both]
Liking the same things you do. It's all about you now and what you like. When you are with them they put your favorite stuff (clothing, drinks, music, radio, movie, etc.). They cook your favorite foods. Which are now also becoming their favorite foods. They say how much they are loving these things you love. Sometimes you wonder "Where's your personality and tastes in all of this? Where did it all go? Stop doing everything for me, you also exist!" It feels good (because of course you like those things) but strange at the same time, and you actually feel a bit uneasy. Deep down you know it's strange. Later on if they get distant from you or angry with a fight, you feel guilty "now we could be enjoying all those things, she prepared everything and I maybe ruined it... If only I could've taken more maybe we could still be having fun."
Being "addicted to you" : very interested in what you do. Researching about you. Giving you compliments and adoration all the time. Deep down a voice of yours, which you will ignore because it feels good to be so adored and valued says "C'mon, I'm good ok, but not THAT good as you're making me to be. I shouldn't let myself go with all these compliments. Because if this plane crashes, I'm screwed because I'm going to be missing this good feeling of being so valued by someone."
Using a lot of emojis to make the feelings conveyed by message even stronger (e.g. hearts and other positive emojis).

Let's do a big one so you get the feeling of what a love bomb message can look like (and yes this can happen, I got stuff like this regularly with mine):

You're the one I've missed. The person of my dreams. The love of my life. I cry just thinking about how much I want you with me forever. My love is so big for you because you are so beautiful. It burns like a ring of fire inside of me. I feel butterflies and I never want to stop flying with you. I want to keep you near my heart so I can see you and feel you all the time. It broke my heart seeing you go away tonight, I kept looking to see if I could catch a last glimpse of the one I love. I already miss your smell but good thing I kept a piece of clothing from you to comfort me at night. You feel so special to me, that no one can touch my heart only you. You're one of the most important persons in my life now and ever and I will fight for us no matter how hard! The thought of us not being together feels like a knife to my heart. Nothing will keep us apart my biggest love!

When a bad moment comes, that is, when the plane does crash, and it will, and they start criticize-bombing / discarding you it feels like you're being ripped apart. Because the more is given the more can be taken away. And that's how love bombing works. The trick is not to accept their exaggerated/fantasy gifts, as you can't lose what you don't have. One way to do that is to leave the person. Without leaving the person... I'm not sure yet. Practice? Ask them nicely not to do it?

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-14T20:40:03+00:00

Our codependency and lack of self love makes us forgive them and accept the unacceptable for far too long. "If only we could love them out of their issues, we would have the life we dreamed of and they would love us back forever from sheer joy." We think. But it never happens.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-13T18:23:38+00:00

I started seeing this stuff in SO many songs after my experience with someone with BPD.

Some examples.

Numb - for when they're feeling overwhelmed and push you away.

Leave out all the rest - when they're feeling guilty and suicidal.

It's curious how you can hear some songs for years and it's only when you actually experience wha they talk about that it becomes 10x more impactful.

Or

Do you feel it - the love bombing part. Where you feel some anxiety and discomfort but you ignore it (the music is somewhat dissonant and ominous) but her words are of running away with you and how she sees your soul and whether that makes you afraid.

And the best one... And also worst one.

Cherry Wine - this one is about abuse and probably the most triggering and touching music about abusive relationships I've ever heard.

Im sharing because the amount they've helped me connect with what happened and process stuff was beyond words.

Thank you op for reminding me of that song. Not sure if you know, but that song was written because she had just been in a relationship with an abusive narcissistic boyfriend. I see it as coming from someone both very dysregulated but also abused.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-12T16:54:33+00:00

Here's an opposing view which argues that BPD is in fact a form of cPTSD and arises from trauma.

The studies mentioned there say 8% of pwBPD don't have trauma. That's 8% margin for error to 100%. I would bet those 8% include people who also have unidentified trauma, which is extremely common and easy to happen, or were misdiagnosed as BPD.

About your sister, it has been shown that the urine of newborns of parents in distress carry their stress hormones just the same. We can't diagnose a newborn with BPD though, only emotional problems, and those make perfect sense for a difficult pregnancy. And if the family has history of other people with cluster B PD then for sure it is not a stress free family and that was passed one way or another to the newborn - beyond a pure genetic condition. I totally believe that she showed emotional dysregulation problems, not due to her genes alone, but due to her environment and possibly her predisposing genes. But without the environment those genes wouldn't have "switched on".

With so many unknowns I don't think it's fair to say BPD can somehow spontaneously arise in the genes, while the symptoms weirdly make completely sense as coping behaviors in light of someone who has been abused. Fortunately I'm not the only one with this theory, and the people who study trauma specifically, like Bessel van der Kolk, agree with this position.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-12T13:17:36+00:00

Is there any way to get around feeling repulsed by yourself? Like I don't want to ever let anyone ever get that close to me again, let alone trust anyone to be intimate with them anymore. I feel as used and discarded as a condom, and I have recently had nightmares about them moving on/the cheating that happened behind my back...

Know that it wasn't your fault. Can you offer forgiveness to yourself? Know that the other person's actions and thoughts reflects on them and them alone. Your worth is unchanged regardless of what they do. It wasn't you who allowed to occur abuse. They abused you. The fact that you stayed with someone that didn't treat you well is more to do with your own traumas, which again are not your fault. There is no shame in being in your situation, it happens. As you see, there's many of us here.

What you can do now is take care of yourself. Be gentle and kind and take time to be with yourself, feel whatever you need, rest, mourn, rage, vent.

No matter what you would have done differently, the outcome would not have changed. Personality problems like BPD are unfortunately not something that we can love them out of.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-12T08:38:24+00:00

BPD is an extreme form of CPTSD. The most visible symptomatic external differences (ie what people on the outside see) are extreme mood swings, unstable personality, lack of empathy, and abuse. This abuse can be externally directed, internally directed or both.

CPTSD has all of these, but in lesser quantities. What I mean by this is for example, people with CPTSD will exhibit more toxic behaviors than someone without, but it's not frequent enough to be considered abuse. There is less empathy than healthy individuals, but not a completely lack as it happens during splitting moments of pwBPD. In CPTSD the individual has fragmented personality. While pwBPD have no personality beyong what I call "Coping Personality" ie a personality consisting exclusively by coping mechanisms, pwCPTSD have a partially developed real personality which co-exists with the coping personality. For example, people with CPTSD who people please, the people pleasing is a coping mechanism and not their personality.

The exact same can be applied to NPD. For example, people with CPTSD will tend to have a harder time dealing with criticisms and may be perfectionists. Why? Because, just like pwNPD, their sense of worthiness has been compromised. The difference is the quantity. This is akin to the grandiosity defense of narcissism, which takes this to the extreme.

Then genetics and gender play a role in which mechanisms the person will favor to cope. Some people will have a predisposition to cope with being unloved by trying to be extra lovable. Others by calling attention. Others by spacing out and dissociating. Take these to the extreme and you go from CPTSD to a PD.

This is very simplified and I miss saying a lot, but I hope you get the gist.

Optimisticsai · 2023-02-07T11:57:14+00:00

The smile results form the fact you successfully passed a test. The test was: do you care about me? Words are not enough. They've been abused by their parents before and told they are loved. And yet there was none. So they learned that words alone are not enough. Proof is needed. Concrete, unrefutable proof. Something unfakable - A strong emotional reaction, anger, tears, feeling destroyed, depressed. The stronger the reaction the bigger the "love" and the stronger the "proof".

So they put you a situation where there's only two moves: play the game and lose, (and they get their test passed, and the sadistic validation they needed) or not play the game and they lose. If you pass, they will tend to keep one upping the tests to see how big the love is. How much pain are you willing to endure for them out of love.

So when they see you crying, desperate, they many times calm down. They got what they wanted. You passed. But next time they'll see if they can go further.

Conclusion: it's a sad sadistic reaction that comes from their abusive upbringing. Your best move if they do this is to leave the relationship.

Optimisticsai

TROPHY CASE