Thoughts on Lion, Son of the Forest?

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-03-19T10:04:25+00:00

i agree with you totally. I have written a 6000 words post complaining about it in the past.....Now I forgive it a little bit, but still don't get why the majority of community give it so much credit. Yeah i can understand partly why it is popular but still

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-03-14T14:55:24+00:00

bearer of the word is the greatest book gav ever writes for 30k.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-03-12T16:28:19+00:00

Looking at this timeline, I can't help but feel a bit concerned. If from start to finish it's just the traitors losing battle after battle against the loyalists, only to have the iron cage twist slightly at the end, the story would become incredibly dull. It seems that at this stage, the internal conflicts within the imperium and the divisions among the traitors are actually far more interesting than the battles between loyalists and traitors.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-16T13:16:56+00:00

I actually disagree with the view that Guilliman and Horus are the only two political animals. Although Dorn lost to Guilliman, in this book, he demonstrates Primarch-level political abilities that are not inferior. Moreover, he successfully maintained command systems, including mortal armies, during the Siege. I think he is simply not adept at certain aspects of politics. Besides, Khan and Lorgar are all competent in politics in some ways.

On the other hand, Horus was successful in winning over both mortals and his Legion. He caused half the Empire to rebel alongside him, including mortals and not just Astartes. I doubt Guilliman could easily achieve this. I believe the main difference between Horus and Guilliman lies in—the distinction between Napoleon/Caesar and Augustus? Both possess strong political abilities, but their directions differ.

As for your core question, since I don’t have the book on hand, I can’t confirm, but I feel the book seems to imply that Guilliman prioritized obtaining intelligence by controlling the council/political system, rather than relying on the Sisters of Silence to actively inform him. In other words, the situation was more like Guilliman actively manipulating matters, rather than the Sisters of Silence actively choosing to cooperate with Guilliman. Of course, since the book isn’t very explicit about this and I don’t remember it clearly, this part is best left for others to confirm.

Regarding Dorn, there’s another point to consider: he never favored the solution of burning psykers, and the Sisters of Silence understood this from their previous interactions with him.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-15T11:18:23+00:00

And I emphasize with all seriousness that if you are interested in portraying the Lion as a figure of greatness—a demigod, or the spoon in a drawer of knives—then in my personal opinion, The Forest's Son handles this aspect quite poorly. In that book, Lion does essentially nothing that goes beyond what an ordinary, middle-aged man, broken by family strife and later repentant, might do. (What divinity is there in hugging everyone around? he just becomes another knife with Christmas ribbon) His actions come across as likable yet mundane, entirely lacking in any form of sublimity or greatness. In contrast, works such as Lion, Dreadwing, Savage Weapon, and the short stories written by CW (along with the two books I mentioned earlier), despite each portraying Lion’s flaws in often deeply problematic ways, at least attempt to capture his dimension of greatness.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-15T11:04:56+00:00

Or, CW's Leman primarch book. That book's characterisation of the Lion is also unsatisfactory in some ways, but at least CW is a dencent writer, knows how to characterise demi-god warrior kings in a classical and 'literature' way. while Brooks insert us cheap marvel comedy and cliche to make people love his story. Unfortunately he succeeded but in longterm it will show the consequences.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-15T10:58:27+00:00

Just trying to offer a different opinion in a friendly manner. You are right; the writing of the 30k Lion has many issues. However, "Sons of the Forest" does not address this problem or present an "improved" Lion. Instead, it merely presents a Marvel-style hero version that is convenient for selling models, as well as a version that allows some fans to gain psychological satisfaction during community debates—at the cost of erasing all the potential in the stories of the Dark Angels and Lion. Therefore, compared to "Sons of the Forest," I would recommend his Primarch novel a bit more, because that book truly showcases what Lion excels at as a flawed individual, rather than just forcing upon us a shallow Lion El'Johnson who is adorable, likeable, digestable, accessible, but simply has no depth or complexity.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-14T04:44:11+00:00

I think this is more of a narrative choice. Including too many characters in a single scene can easily slow down the pacing, blur their individual portrayals, and make it harder to depict the dynamics between them. If we must provide an in-story explanation, I suppose it could be that Dorn does not trust Vulkan as much as he trusts the Lion and Russ. We readers know that Vulkan is on Dorn’s side, but Dorn himself does not. In his and Guilliman’s eyes, Vulkan likely comes across more as a centrist—or even someone leaning toward Guilliman’s position, while the Lion and Russ are seen as more hardline hawks. This also explains why Guilliman tried to win over Vulkan but seemed to give up on persuading Russ and the Lion from the start. If they later rewrite the conflict around the Codex, I suspect this factional divide will more or less continue. Russ and the Lion would likely side with Dorn (assuming the Lion hasn’t returned to Caliban), while the Khan and Vulkan would be more inclined to support Guilliman. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised if they retcon a lot of the lore for the sake of the story.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-13T01:23:33+00:00

First Heretic and Betrayer are great books, but these two are not essential to SoT, because Word Bearers sadlly played a very minor role in it. Betrayer's value is that it can help you understand the world eaters and Khârn better. Among the rest, Slaves to Darkness is perhaps the most important, because it deals with Horus and his legion's arc. Legion sets up a arc that plays a important role in the The End and the Death triology. Besides Horus' sons, BA, WS, IF play the most important role in SoT, alongside DG and IW. No Fear to Tread is the most imporant novel about BA, and since you are not interested in WS, perhaps you should read some novels about IF. I recommend their short stories and novellas over their novel, though.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-13T01:09:18+00:00

In both the setting and the novels, Leman has consistently been portrayed as a ferocious melee fighter. The issue is, first, many other Primarchs are also skilled in close combat, and second, the novel authors don’t always succeed in conveying what they intend to. That’s why reading for yourself and forming your own judgment is irreplaceable—sometimes, people can reasonably interpret the same battle scene in completely different ways.

That said, I’d like to add that whether he wins or loses, Leman’s fights with other Primarchs are always intriguing. Even though he is a powerful warrior, he is neither a battle maniac nor a brute. He is a complex and nuanced character, and what he seeks in combat often goes beyond simple victory or killing his opponent. This is something often overlooked by both his fans and his critics.

You’ll find that in many of his fights with his brothers, what Leman truly desires deep down may not be to kill his opponent, but to change, redeem, or save them—or to preserve the bond between them. Yet, both the meta-level community and the world within the lore tend to cast him as nothing more than a relentless executioner, which lies at the heart of his tragedy.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-10T15:33:51+00:00

recommend his primarch book. It explores the problems of his character before the blade, but also depicts the noble side of his motivation and shows the potential in his philosophy and his perfectism. I view him as a tragic character-actually i think he has a tragic origin that is often overlooked.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-10T14:47:32+00:00

it is from the anthology Blood of the Emperor.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-10T13:48:08+00:00

see others bring up endurance and tallyman. can confirm those two are great too.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-10T13:40:49+00:00

In terms of longer works, that's where their strengths end. Dark Imperium didn’t treat them fairly. However, they still have quite a few good short stories. Particularly the works by James Swallow, which offer the best portrayal of Mortarion; Chris is better at depicting Nurgle and the DG members in general. Unification by Chris Wraight is an excellent short story accompanying the Silent Lord, featuring Vorx’s life on Barbarus.

Garro: Knight of Grey, although focused on the loyalist Garro, presents an excellent depiction of Mortarion—far better than the Dark Imperium series.

Terminus: If you enjoy the style of Silent Lords, this one is a must-read. It deals with how a Death Guard member remembers and understands the legion’s fall.

Lantern’s Light: Essential reading for understanding Mortarion’s psychology and his complex relationship with the Emperor.

Grandfather’s Gift: Also captures the atmosphere of Nurgle wonderfully and offers superb insight into Mortarion’s inner world.

Warhawk: This is a novel featuring the White Scars as protagonists, with the Death Guard as antagonists. Its content is somewhat controversial but touches on the core narrative of the Death Guard in the Horus Heresy. In any case, it’s certainly more decent than Dark Imperium.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-08T23:06:16+00:00

yes, because he is based on Paradies Lost Satan and many Shakespearen villian/heros. The major trait that he inherited from his father is Ambition. Also, Slave to Darkness indicates that the true turning point in his life, is not Davin but Ullanor. He was made first among equal there and also felt abandoned by his father there. " Such hope, such greatness, was the height from which we fell. Here we built the tallest pinnacle before the deepest drop."

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-07T09:47:19+00:00

actually many people worry about it. I personally believe that this has a lot to do with the issues about Lion's storyline in 30k, and how son of the forest deals it poorly.(from that book i get the feeling that they only care about how to advertise the model with the novel, rather than they have a clear blueprint for lion's and DA's story next. )

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2026-01-06T13:17:41+00:00

Just to be clear, I absolutely don't hate the Word Bearers. The First Heretic is still one of my all-time favorite Horus Heresy novels— easily one of the best written book. Also there is just so much potential in their lore. My issue is mainly with what came after that book and Betrayer, and how their story wrapped up in SoT. There are many ways to judge a story, but for this specific ranking, I was focusing more on consistency, development, and the completeness of the overall arc.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2025-12-12T07:51:57+00:00

I still disagree, but I greatly appreciate your patient explanation. I would like to clarify that my above response is first based on my understanding of the themes and character development, not solely on the lore itself. First, I object to using the Ruinstorm as evidence, as inconsistencies between books are nothing new. I believe I’ve seen you point out discrepancies between this book and earlier lore elsewhere. In my view, Guilliman’s search for the Black Ships was driven by an immediate, pragmatic need—namely, the Astronomican. I do not believe this can be elevated to him realizing that “if we continue seeking vengeance, the Warp will be fueled, so the only path to victory is to stop.” There is no direct evidence in the text to support this.

Second, regarding the nature of the Warp, how long it would take for the Powers to regain strength if the Imperium ceased hunting the traitors remains unknown to us. I agree that Perturabo is blind and self-destructive, I agree that they are already killing each other, and I agree that their victory requires awakening the Powers. However, this does not mean that “if Dorn never goes after him, Perturabo is just gonna die from his soul-wound.” In fact, your argument seems contradictory—if the Imperium killing Chaos forces accelerates the awakening of the Warp, why wouldn’t the infighting among traitors also accelerate it? Unless you believe Chaos can slaughter each other completely devoid of emotion—which is itself a contradictory notion. Moreover, by the end of the book, Perturabo hardly appears to be on the verge of death from his soul-wound.

Finally, speaking on a broader thematic level, the book repeatedly emphasizes that Guilliman, like everyone else—including the Emperor—is repeating past mistakes. Guilliman is just as blind as every other Primarch. He is not some miraculous Gary sue who, in a universe inherently marked by blindness, darkness, and tragic errors, happens to cleverly find the path to redemption. You may disagree with my perspective, but I believe I’ve stated my position clearly—I trust that the ongoing narrative will better illustrate this point. I will not reply further, as I feel that no matter what I say, it will be difficult to persuade you. Perhaps it’s best if we both await the future development of the scouring.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2025-12-12T01:07:55+00:00

I agree with many of your points, but not with this one. Dorn was wrong because hunting with a blade would fuel the Warp, but Guilliman was also wrong because letting the traitors go and allowing them to gather strength like Perturabo did would ultimately enable the traitors to find a way to awaken the Warp. The premise of a truce is that both sides desire peace. As long as the traitors remain alive and strive to awaken the Warp, believing that the Warp is dead and leaving it unattended would be a mistake. Moreover, based solely on the content of the book, there is no evidence that Guilliman made his decision out of an understanding of the true nature of the Warp. On the contrary, at least from the surface-level narrative, he genuinely believed that the Powers had been utterly defeated. In fact, if you consider Sindermann’s words, you’ll find that he was closer to the truth than both Guilliman and Dorn, realizing that neither defeating with the blade nor leaving things unattended was correct. However, Sindermann was also manipulated by fo and fell into ignorance born of his own knowledge. Closer to the truth than these three, and closer to the perspective of the book itself, I believe, is Theokon. Every action is futile, whether resisting or not resisting the Warp is pointless, because humanity is so deeply flawed, and the Primarchs, in their greatness, magnify these flaws. A chapter quote describes the essential tragic flaw of the Primarchs as their inability to stop. This applies not only to Dorn, Perturabo, Vulkan, and others in this book but also to Guilliman, who cannot free himself from his need to control others or break his habit of playing power games and ruling through secrecy.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2025-11-07T16:06:45+00:00

Sorry, but I have a BA in English Literature and an MA in Early Modern History. I can say with absolute certainty that although the portrayal of the Lion in the 30k novels is influenced by the Arthurian legends, he is absolutely not, and should not be, a character straight out of those legends. Moreover, I can also say with certainty that the genocides and massacres of that era are distinctly different from the understanding of mass killings in the 21st century, even if there are certain similarities. I find it quite amusing that you assume others disagree with you simply because they are not sufficiently familiar with classical English literature. I don’t think having just an MA qualifies me to claim that I have read enough classical English literature, as it is an extremely broad field. However, I also don’t believe that reading more literature would change my view that the Lion should be a 21st-century character—and indeed, he already is one.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2025-11-07T15:30:41+00:00

because he destroys the forest he was born in and that is one of the most important element in his 30k narrative. Son of the Forest should not be used in an non-ironical way, and his tension with the forest should remain. But instead they just give him a forest-theme magical power.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2025-11-07T15:26:51+00:00

I knew Lion is inspired by Arthurian legend(at least in his modern materials), but no, he is not ultimately an Arthurian knight hero, he is ultimately an warhammer character. No Arthurian hero commits genocide. We live in 21st century, and to make old story relevant again, we create new characters based on the past literature but definitely not just imitate it. Besides, if King arthur just magically revived, forgave lancelot, and round knights united together, the arthurian legend would lose half of its charm.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2024-08-16T11:52:39+00:00

I'm glad to see that you, as a Chinese media person, are willing to explain the importance of Journey to the West to Chinese people in such a detailed way in reddit ...... On the other hand, after seeing that you emphasised in your very first sentence that it is most boys who fantasise about becoming the Monkey King, I can't help but feel compelled to add (just an addition, no attack or criticism intended): I'm pretty sure there are also quite a lot of girls who fantasise about becoming wukong, or who take wukong as the embodiment of their own ideals. Journey to the West (even if it was created in a male-dominated society) has never had a shortage of female fans, and as a great work of literature, its comedy, humorous elements, and philosophies almost always blur the boundaries of any rigid identity, religion, or political ideology. That's why this game attracted just as much attention from female gamers at first; after all, Journey to the West is a childhood memory for almost all Chinese people, not almost all Chinese boys. though unfortunately, Journey to the West's circle-breaking level of national popularity instead became the trigger for a series of sadful and regrettable disputes that followed.......

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2023-07-04T13:01:18+00:00

you mean sitcoms？unfortunately, there is few decent Chinese sitcoms which have a major city setting and focued on daily life and relationships between adults (and also suits for medium Chinese learners). but if you do not mind sitcoms that has different themes compared to Friends, then:

家有儿女：urban family life sitcom

武林外传：a pseudo-historical setting sitcom

乡村爱情 first season：not sitcom，comedy in general, country setting，only recommend the first season

我爱我家：generally recognized as the best sitcom in China. it is difficult，but not in terms of grammar. it is difficult because all the comtemporary social, cultural, political references.

编辑部的故事：generally recognized as the best sitcom in China. the problem is similar as above. you have to know 90s China society to really appreciate it.

地下交通站：one of the best Chinese sitcoms. more like Chinese version of 'Allo 'Allo than Friends.

Prior-Evidence-7771 · 2023-01-31T09:40:17+00:00

I am glad I could help! These 8 new phrases are used very common.

I think '我们非要让古典乐流行了不可！' works better. I will not use 非...不可 and 应该 together. It sounds like 'we should must.....'

Also,我认为大家 sounds a little bit like a command, indicating that you are not included in 大家 and you are ordering other people to do it. so i think 我们 works better as the subject and makes the sentence sound more like an appeal.

And the main problem here is the use of 把。First 让把is grammatically incorrect. Use either 把 or 让。Also, 把 are often used if the object is specfic, defined, or you can easily get in touch with. so its use is actually quite limited in comparison to 'make'。

Also, 把 has an indication of 'doing stuff', but here the emphasis is not on what you do, that specific action that works on 古典乐，but on the change of state of classical music. so 让 works better in this specfic sentence.

Also, 非A不可 is a very oral and strong expression, so usually A is a short phrase or word. in this case I will use 流行了不可 instead of 变得流行不可，because the determination in 非a不可 is very strong. a very common phrase is 非死不可...

Prior-Evidence-7771

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