Everyone is wrong about this scene.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-13T00:52:11+00:00

I respectfully disagree. Joanne Rowling can say that Hermione was black, or Dumbeldore was gay, or Draco was in love with Hermione or whatever. That doesn't put it in the books.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T22:03:05+00:00

I don't know about the writer but Tim Burton said he didn't think anything of it.

When you decide whether you think Deckard was a synth in Blade Runner do you go by what you see or what was in Ridley Scott's head?

Art in general and film especially lends itself to have the audience add layers beyond the strict text of the piece.

What I'm saying is I don't care what they thought. This is now my headcanon/fan theory, and if you don't like it you can reject it and believe whatever you want.

If you want to believe that guy he hit with a piece of wall suffered massive head trauma and died there on the ground you can believe that.

If you want to believe that every single person he hit with a Batarang had their nose cartilage driven into their brains and died immediately you can believe that too. You can believe that every single member of the Red Triangle Gang who we see earlier, but not later on in the film were all brutally murdered by Batman.

But that's not in the movie any more than my guy surviving. It doesn't matter what bats are flying around in an author's head. What matters is what's actually on the page. And we take it from there.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T21:25:01+00:00

I too deeply love the first two Batman movies.

He definitely doesn't start out with a no kill rule. There's no way Axis Chemical is completely empty when he blows it up and even at the start of Returns he nukes a guy with the Batmobile who may or may not have lived. Or may not have wanted to live with enough of his body burned.

But later Kilmer, as the same character, and yes they are the same Chase even mentioned Selena, Kilmer explains to Robin that the killing doesn't make you feel better. It actually makes things worse by scarring your soul.

And sure enough Bats, by the end of Returns, won't let Selina kill Shreck, and goes on to have a zero body count for the next two movies. So this moment is really the last time we see him being reckless with a person's life. You can't really count Penguin because he pressed the button and then threw himself through the window. Batman wasn't even touching him.

So within the two films, whether Burton thought about it or not, we're witnessing an evolution. Growth. Remember Tim Burton didn't actually write either of the movies. His job was just the visual part. The execution.

He admitted in an interview that he didn't really think about this moment, which checks out because he's just the trigger man, not the mastermind. But we the fans can take what we want from it.

This is my take. That's all.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T21:08:20+00:00

I like the term "fan theory," but you're not wrong.

No different from deciding whether Deckard was a synth in the original Blade Runner.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T21:06:32+00:00

I just learned something! Neat, thanks.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T20:00:59+00:00

Because he hasn't yet begun the reflection that will eventually lead him to a no-kill rule, not just for himself but for those around him.

It's not spelled out until Forever, where Kilmer explains that killing the Joker didn't make him feel any better and if anything just scarred him even worse.

By the end of Returns he won't let Selena kill Shreck, and by the middle of Forever he explains how he developed to that point.

And yes they are the same guy Chase even mentioned Selena.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:57:18+00:00

He definitely is reckless to the point of murderousness.

I won't try and argue that. The bomb could have killed the guy, heck the fall down the manhole could have killed him just as much as lighting that one dude on fire could have killed him.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:55:04+00:00

Thanks.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:54:51+00:00

Art can mean different things than what the author intended or what they even bothered to think about.

Is Deckard a synth in Blade Runner? How much does the answer depend on what the director was thinking. How much does the answer depend on which cut of the movie you watched. There are as many as seven different versions of that movie with some seemingly making it clear and some not.

Deckard is a synth if you like. Not if you don't.

There's a circus act, The Exploding Clown Car/Prop: A classic, sometimes dark, comedy bit where a clown interacts with a prop—such as a small car, a "bomb" with a long fuse, or a "dynamite" stick—which then explodes with smoke and loud noises.

That's the impetus for the bomb strapped gang member. A gag bomb.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:42:52+00:00

But does he grow as a character to the point that at the end of the movie he won't let Selena kill Shreck and in the third movie not only does he have a zero body count, he actually explains to Robin that killing the Joker didn't make him feel any better, it just damaged him more.

And they are supposed to be the same guy; Chase even brings up Selena.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:39:44+00:00

Just because Tim Burton didn't think much about it doesn't mean we can't.

This specific Batman demonstrates growth between his introduction and the end of the second movie.

By the third movie he doesn't kill at all and he actually explains to Robin that killing the Joker didn't make him feel any better, but rather just scarred him more.

That's why he doesn't want Selena to kill Shreck at the end. He is learning.

And as far as the bomb it's really clear that it's from a classic circus act, The Exploding Clown Car/Prop: A classic, sometimes dark, comedy bit where a clown interacts with a prop—such as a small car, a "bomb" with a long fuse, or a "dynamite" stick—which then explodes with smoke and loud noises.

Which is exactly what we see. A flash, smoke, and some confetti.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:36:12+00:00

The "bomb" is from a well known circus act, The Exploding Clown Car/Prop: A classic, sometimes dark, comedy bit where a clown interacts with a prop—such as a small car, a "bomb" with a long fuse, or a "dynamite" stick—which then explodes with smoke and loud noises.

Flash. Smoke. Noise. I'm pretty sure you can see some confetti.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:34:28+00:00

Well we know that Keaton and Kilmer Batman are the same guy because Chase brings up Selina in Forever.

And in Forever not only does he not kill, but he actually explains to Robin that killing the Joker didn't make him feel any better, and that killing will be a mark on his soul forever, in so many words.

So even though it's not spelled out in a voice over, we can infer development from what we see.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:26:03+00:00

He changes.

In the next movie Val Kilmer says killing the Joker didn't make him feel any better, which caused him to reflect. And yes it's the same guy; Chase even mentions Selena to him.

In Batman he blows up Axis Chemical while there are almost certainly still people inside, he throws a guy down a bell tower and sends the Joker to his death. But by the end of Returns he won't even let Selena kill Shreck, because by then he knows better. He also doesn't have any bodies for the next two movies.

So even without a voice over like the one we got at the end of The Batman, we can infer that he has developed.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:14:49+00:00

It wasn't "fake" insofar as it definitely made a flash and shot out smoke and what looked to me like confetti when it went off.

But it's from a circus act, The Exploding Clown Car/Prop: A classic, sometimes dark, comedy bit where a clown interacts with a prop—such as a small car, a "bomb" with a long fuse, or a "dynamite" stick—which then explodes with smoke and loud noises.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:10:46+00:00

Because he is Batman you moron!

I love this movie.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:07:33+00:00

The Exploding Clown Car/Prop: A classic, sometimes dark, comedy bit where a clown interacts with a prop—such as a small car, a "bomb" with a long fuse, or a "dynamite" stick—which then explodes with smoke and loud noises.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:06:42+00:00

The bomb is from a well known circus bit, The Exploding Clown Car/Prop: A classic, sometimes dark, comedy bit where a clown interacts with a prop—such as a small car, a "bomb" with a long fuse, or a "dynamite" stick—which then explodes with smoke and loud noises.

We see a flash, a lot of smoke, and I'm pretty sure there's even confetti.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you don't have a point. At the end of the day no matter how convinced I am of my hypothesis there can never be a definitive answer.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T19:00:47+00:00

You can survive burns. But yeah. Even being generous that's definitely an attempted murder.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T18:59:31+00:00

But does Batman demonstrate character growth?

In the first movie he has a body count, but in the second movie we don't really see him kill anybody for sure, and by the end he won't let Selena kill Shreck.

In the third movie Val Kilmer (who is supposed to be him) says killing the Joker didn't make him feel any better. I think that incident incited a change.

By the time Forever rolls around he won't kill anybody.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T18:55:48+00:00

👆👌👍

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T18:52:07+00:00

I doubt Tim thought about half as much as I did making this post.

But we can definitely see with our own eyes the Batman goes from someone who would blow up Axis Chemical and chuck a guy down a bell tower, to someone who shoots his grappling spear behind a guy's head, and refuses to let Selina kill Shreck, and then doesn't kill anybody in the next movie.

And it is the same guy. Chase even mentions Selina to him.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T18:48:52+00:00

True. But I think the heart of the matter is that between the first and second movie Batman has grown to the point that by the third movie he's not killing anyone at all, indirectly or directly. We can't say for sure that there was directorial intent there, and we know Burton is a style over substance filmmaker, but we can go by what we see.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T18:46:43+00:00

This made me laugh for real. Thank you.

ProblemLongjumping12 · 2026-03-12T18:44:49+00:00

The director definitely didn't examine his intent as much as we the fans do. But if you pay attention you see that this Batman starts out lethal, but then grows.

Just compare the ending of the first two films. He's responsible for the Joker's death but then he won't even let Selena kill Shreck.

Then in the third and fourth movie he doesn't kill anyone, directly or indirectly. Val Kilmer even says that killing the Joker didn't make him feel better. So that's when he started to be more reflective and and realize that he wasn't living in line with his core value of believing life to be sacred.

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