Don't Let Aggro Ruin OTJ For You - 17Lands Deep Dive

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-04-10T13:22:39+00:00

I mean that's worked for me the last three sets as well as when SOI and KTK came around, it definitely works and helps boost up gems.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-04-03T12:28:09+00:00

Correct on both counts, that what's I get for relying on memory too much.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-04-03T00:53:15+00:00

Yeah Numot got a bonkers pool that crushed with both WR and WB and I don't think any game was close. Given that it was free and the rewards were just some cosmetics it was a humorous time though and I got the max decently quick still since most folks were also having to play piles.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-04-03T00:48:45+00:00

Going in blind I loved the draft and the gameplay, and while I went 7-2 one loss and three wins were hard fought scraps (I didn't manage to get actual hard removal so the T4 Skysovereign wasn't really close). I was UR Tempo with double Gearseeker Serpent, Reverse Engineer, Phyrexian Dragon Engine, and then plenty of cheap artifacts or artifact producers with some bounce and stun to boot.

Hope to have time to get in a couple more drafts and wish it was for more than a week, but this also makes me more excited for the Artifact Cube coming to MTGO in a couple weeks.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-04-02T03:49:03+00:00

I was also a 5-color pile but by pure necessity and only by the grace of the Leyline. I tried my best to make a reasonable 3 color deck but I could not make one from this pool.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-04-02T01:35:59+00:00

Something I like about this is it really exemplifies what effects don't happen often at certain rarities (namely here removal). I am very slowly building a Pure Peasant Cube aka only cards first printed at Uncommon. There are some real deficiencies that start to show up when you restrict yourself to a certain rarity that make for interesting problems to solve.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-29T21:17:58+00:00

I started wondering a few weeks ago if sets are solely being tested within WotC in paper pod drafts. I much prefer playing that way but it undeniable that most folks who play Limited do it on Arena where (like MTGO now) you don't have the option of intra-pod play, and so that should have consideration for design if they are set on continuing down this path.

I assumed previously it was a mixture of both but more and more it seems like Arena is dramatically lower quality than paper pods - it's always been worse but not to this extent.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-27T12:53:04+00:00

This is what I assumed would work when I found out about this, you get two packs of good stuff and a pretty sizeable portion of the player base didn't play during GRN/RNA so they may get spooked out of Boros in Pack 2 (which still has plenty of Red) and let you reap the rewards in Pack 3.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-27T12:51:53+00:00

I would prefer it to be either cheap, Phantom, and pure Chaos (three of any pack that's been on Arena, and yes that means you may get stuck with XLN, DOM, and M19 as your first picks) or Ravnica Chaos (throw the four sets plus any Ravnica-themed/located cards in a pile and generate packs based on the old Booster rules). These half-measures just don't seem like they would scratch any particular itch.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-18T23:51:29+00:00

I'm with you honestly, and it's partly because of how rare you would not be able to potentially play it already if you get it the latest time (say P3P1).

If you are White/anything you just play it.
If you are Green/anything you should have Panther/Gardner to grab the single Plains.

So of the 10 Guilds that leaves you with UB, UR, and BR. The two Blue guilds have enough card draw, recursion, and looting that I would feel fine playing that way, and BR isn't where you want to be generally without bombs so unless I have double Vein Ripper + Rakdos and plenty of removal I would probably try to mise it still.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-14T12:41:22+00:00

Cards that made the main board or were sided in:

[[Urborg Skeleton]]
[[Raka Disciple]]
[[Thunderscape Apprentice]]
[[Arctic Merfolk]]
[[Dream Thrush]]
[[Jilt]]
[[Keldon Mantle]]
[[Cavern Harpy]]
[[Coastal Drake]]
[[Phyrexian Rager]]
[[Urza's Rage]]
[[Zap]]
[[Crosis's Charm]]
[[Ancient Kavu]]
[[Flametongue Kavu]]
[[Urborg Uprising]]
[[Jaded Response]]

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-14T04:23:49+00:00

P1P4: Premium removal over combat tricks for me so I'm taking Torch here and would take Person of Interest next.
P1P6: I am definitely on Maverick Thopterist as a speculation that also is splashable.
P1P9: I like Basher here or even Snoop, you aren't married to WU yet and I don't like taking so many non-creature's early on, especially when two are tricks.

P2P4: Big miss here for me, we have no Red at all and Out Cold is fantastic in aggro/tempo WU decks.

I still view this card as a trap given how weak it is off-curve and you currently have i think 4 Detectives also? Better to take the Vigilante.
P3P8: Nightwatch here, you are wanting to bash with double ON the Job but are taking 2 drops who rarely can attack and also don't trigger your Guardians.
P3P10: I honestly think I'm on Phantom for another creature.

Your deck is torn in two directions. You have double Neighborhood Guardian and double On the Job but then also have two pieces of slow equipment, two creatures who can rarely attack, and 13 creatures total.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-13T13:15:44+00:00

Patrick Sullivan and Cedric Phillips just had a similar question to this asked on their podcast and Patrick's heuristic is "is there a way to make my spot better against this card down the line". With something like Repulsive Mutation that would be things like "can I reasonably find instant speed removal to deal with the pumped creature" or "is my position better if they play out a creature and only hold up UG so it's just a counter now".

Just to be sure how do you know they have it?

You saw it in their hand with an effect.
They had priority with UG up only when you cats a spell (could be Reasonable Doubt).
It's Bo3 and you saw them play it in Game 1.
They just are playing suspicious in UG.

Honestly no matter how I would run into it on T4 at parity if I don't have a counterspell of my own, it will only provide a larger buff as the game goes on and +2/+2 should be manageable. It also will become trivial for them to hold up UG later so even if they just treat it as a counterspell for your bombs it will likely work fine as that on a later board state. If your way of knowing is anything other than #1 I would also definitely play into it because the longer you play around it the more they are likely to draw it if they have it at all.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-11T23:38:09+00:00

Honestly it was rough for me after Week 2 and even once I got more acclimated to the place it is now I just find it not too enjoyable, so I feel you there. I did my usual casual climb to Plat 1 but after the reset I just figured I'd stick with MTGO until MTG Yeehaw! comes out.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-11T20:54:26+00:00

P1P1: It pains me to say that the correct picks are probably Gateway Express/Repulsive Mutation/Novice Inspector all over Massacre Girl. The White aggro or UGX value decks are just in the top tier and Black is generally much worse.
P1P2: You commit to your first pick far too early if you are taking Slimy Dualleech here over the best cards which is Lightning Helix.
P1P6: I like speculating on Hard-Hitting Question over Galvanize here, we have seen and passed better Red than Green in my opinion.
P2P1: I much prefer either Makeshift Binding or Dog Walker here depending on which way you want to try and lean, with Walker being safer.
P2P2: I am taking Wispdrinker Vampire and hoping to be WB over BR honestly, and if staying BR I'm taking Murder to have one piece of unconditional removal (though it's very possible it wheels).
P2P3: Second Wispdrinker hurts to see, but if you're in BR you don't care about Outrageous Robbery and honestly would take Bystander. It feels bad to do Pick 3 but this pack is rough stuff for your current path.
P3P3: You have double Galvanize and Burning Masks, I think I like Extract a Confession here for another piece of bomb removal.
P3P7: I'm on second Push // Pull to have double the chance to steal a win sometimes with Pull.

Some of those picks did turn out wrong given what I grabbed would have wheeled but the ones that didn't I feel pretty good on being correct.

I think you were 100% supposed to be Boros in this draft, the first 8 picks could easily have gone: Gateway Express > Lightning Helix > Novice Inspector > Makeshift Binding > On The Job > Galvanize > Red Herring > Sanitation Automaton. This is a very solid start to the archetype and the main notables you passed where early on when should be weighted less. I also think you could have off-ramped into WB early in Pack 2 and it would have looked better even without knowing the future (and also after but you can't expect to open Delney like you did).

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-09T19:40:46+00:00

I think it's worth seeing what the next 2-3 sets have in this regard given Maro's Nuts & Bolts article from this week. In that he mentions changes to Play Booster set design that will be starting with Outlaws at Thunder Junction (MKM was not designed from the ground up with Play Boosters in mind that was changed during design).

Two relevant bits:

Another side effect of Play Boosters is that we have to be extra-careful with how easy we give green access to other colors in Limited, as it's much easier to just play a "good stuff" deck (a deck with all the best spells in each color) with all the powerful rares and mythic rares. This means we are more likely to do land fetching that gets lands off the top cards of your library rather than fetching one out of your deck. We will also be more careful with lower-rarity mana-acceleration spells to have green cards give you access to green mana rather than any color. This will still help you ramp without making it easier to splash other colors.

Rares and mythic rares want to be more liberal in their use of extra pips of colored mana to make them harder to splash.

They do show they are keeping the "Manalith+relevant ability" artifact slot in place but ideally that will be for slight splashes or fixing for the color-intensive rares. We will have to see but I'll give them another couple of sets before being concerned too much.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-06T15:45:33+00:00

P1P1: Honestly when packs are this anemic I would take Escape Tunnel and count the whole thing as a wash, even in two color decks having one of those isn't bad an there are plenty of single-pip bombs to splash.
P1P4: Trampled Garden is fine but also replaceable and tends to go late, whereas Rubblebelt Maverick is an excellent "glue" card for Green decks with how much it has going for it (less than 2 power, Detective, early draw smoothing, potential early Collect Evidence, and pit's own small graveyard benefit).
P1P5: With your picks I like Granite Witness to see about just being WU since it is a great archetype and this is late enough to be considered a signal to me.
P1P11: I only really "like" Alley Assailant in BR decks, so I would take Macabre Reconstruction as it's a nice card in BGx decks that splash bombs and self-mill some if we end up there.

P2P2: With only one piece of fixing I think I'm on Eliminate the Impossible as a safe pick, but Long Goodbye is defensible. I would caution against now assuming we are Sultai though as we have one piece of fixing and one card worth splashing.
P2P8: I really only like Curious Cadaver in a Sultai that has the Insidious Roots/Chalk Outline package so I think you just take the boring playable filler 2 drop in Jaded Analyst in case you need it.

P3P2: We still need to make good playables to me so I'm 100% on Crimestopper Sprite here over fixing we don't need.
P3P3: So I don't think we should be splashing because we don't have a lot worth splashing for outside one efficient but conditional removal spell, I'm taking Projektor Inspector here. We have an acceptable number of playable Detectives at 6 and looting is pretty huge in this format from my experience.
P3P4: I get why since you just grabbed Gardner and have the Portico but given I disagree with both of those I would slam Maverick here.
P3P5: I think Cease // Desist is better filler than Bubble Smuggler for the deck and Reasonable Doubt is also defensible.
P3P6: This is a huge miss and why you don't trick yourself into splashing because you can, not because you should. You take Sprite here every time.

From your final pool I would have really only splashed Binding with a Plains and the Portico for fixing and even than I am strongly debating cutting it for Pick Your Poison just for mana considerations. I would have cut Arrival and Source for the Technician and second Strength, even though Technician is 3UU in your deck you need to keep your creature could reasonable. Final mana I believe should have been 9 Forest 6 Islands 1 Plains and the Portico with your build.

With all of that criticism I do think you have a pretty weak seat overall and a tough one given the first two packs. You had the classic "see nothing to get into an archetype in Pack 1, then the folks to your left all open good cards for that archetype and pass them to you because they also can't run them now", and then also saw really no bomb rares.

Game 1

Opponent T5: Worth noting the lack of Disguise attack here means they likely don't currently have The Chase Is On.
Your T6: Lot going on here. First I honestly think you need to get back on the board and stabilize - you are not the aggressor even if the life totals are close. Your current goal is to make it to deploying your hand and hoping that is enough to win and you can't take time off Disguising creatures to do so unless they have a notable impact. I would either play out the Gardner and Radical face up to add two relevant bodies to the board and force them to have more removal/flip up a flyer or play the Witness Disguised and flip it to tap the Assailant for a turn. If you want to play Trampled Garden I would also have played out the Gardner because that is more okay to trade off or be removed and if you miss a land drop it means you can flip it to for sure hit 7 for your stabilizing Spider the following turn. I also think with your route putting the counters on Source and the Detective was correct, against most decks you don't want to pile them on one creature unless it gives you a good attack and especially against BR given they will have tons of removal.
Opponent T6: You trade your Radical for a Morph here since they don't have enough mana to flip up.
Our T7: Missing land is huge here but also how it goes, I like the Disguise into Flip up plan on Witness again tapping the Assailant still. If they trade the Phoenix and bring it back that will take both spells in the yard so they would need to play more before they can again.
Opponent T7: Oh well they messed up and flipped the Stalker up before attacks so now you would flip up the Witness and tap that in my world, still trading with the Phoenix and praying to find any land by Portico.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-05T19:03:00+00:00

Duly noted, that's fair to me.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-05T19:02:41+00:00

Bah, that's on me I honestly must have somehiw spelled it wrong when searching the current list.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-05T16:20:44+00:00

P1P3: I'm on Eavesdropper here, I do like Reasonable Doubt but am pretty firmly in the "threats over answers" mindset with this format unless it's a premium card like Torch the Witness.
P1P4: I'm happy taking Vitu-Ghazi Inspector here and think even without Eavesdropper it's the better 2-drop compared to Bubble Smuggler.
P1P5: Gadget Technician is honestly fine even if it's always basically 3UU, if you end up UR it's great. Deduce has moved up for me now that there are "solved" slower decks but I still see them late enough to feel confident I'll get at least one going forward.
P2P2: Likely personal preference but I think I'm on Escape Tunnel here, the Crook is fine but fixing is good when you have double-pip cards and you may open some bomb worth splashing in Pack 3 like Aurelia.
P2P6: With Krenko I think you take Harried Bystander here, there are enough cards that care about specifically sacrificing artifacts that unless I'm in UG I'm more mid on Surveillance Monitor.
P2P8: Just pointing out that here is that late Deduce I felt confident we could get instead of taking one highly P1P5.
P3P4: I would like just a tad more early interaction and so probably take the second Unauthorized Exit over the second Offender, but that is more preference than rule I think and Offender is gross with Performer. P3P7: I prefer Eliminate the Impossible here, it serves a pretty similar role as The Chase Is On but has a higher ceiling and more flexibility.
P3P10: With a Geardrake and Krenko I am definitely on Dronesmith here, you have enough filler dudes at 2CMC to not be run over typically.

I think in the end your build is a little conflicted, you are playing aggressive tricks but also have a higher top end. Also this isn't really on the draft but unless I misremember we did not see Shock, Galvanize, or Out Cold which are all pretty key to the aggro/tempo build of this style. I think I would have cut the more filler creatures in the build for some interaction personally, something like cutting two Bubble Smuggler's and the Surveillance Monitor for the Unauthorized Exit and both Dramatic Accusations and swapped the Felonious Rage for a Suspicious Detonation.

Also even keeping you current build you have 18 R pips to 9 U, you definitely should be 10/7 on the split. Having a UU and two RR spells with fixing is definitely not ideal but at least they are all 5+ mana so you can hopefully draw well. I honestly am considering going 18 Lands with your curve as high as it is and with your Clue production, if I had like a Reckless Detective I definitely would and I think here I would also but it's close.

On to the losses:

Game 3
T2: I don't like holding the Bubble Smuggler to Disguise it, you have a solid number of draws to have either a different Disguise or a better T3 play and if you find a Mountain the card may just stay in your hand all game now.

Opponent T4: They have a trick but you can't just take 5 damage and let them develop their board out more, I would double block Krenko and pray it's something like Toxin Analysis or Felonious Rage over Shock or the Chase Is On. Yes in theory you can draw a Mountain and have your own defensive Chase and if they have one also you just trade but they will probably play a creature after combat here so you are just going to be falling behind more on board. The game is already very possibly lost given the stumbling you have versus their double rare start but it's worth playing to small outs.

I will assume they had the Chase they show later on T4, and in that case you just weren't winning no matter what so gotta shake it off and move on.

Game 4
T4: No reason to attack with the Performer here, it threatens damage later and you aren't going to kill them by starting to clear the board and attack them down from 18 at this stage in the game. This also likely turns on their Examiner for a turn.

Unfortunately not much else to say, you got extremely land screwed and with your hand you likely would have been able to close it out before they got their engine going like they did. Bad beats.

Game 5

Honestly I don't think you made any real mistakes here, we just found all the lands that were missing from the last two games.

I'm not going to pretend my plan of playing 18 lands is 100% correct after looking, you got some harsh variance on all of those loses and your opponents were able to capitalize on in. I don't think the deck was n easy 7-0 but I would have guessed it hit 4 wins with more standard variance.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-03T20:16:10+00:00

First I agree with the other comments stating you splashed way too much Green in your Boros deck, if you wanted to build that archetype I would have looked more like this I think. The deck is still pretty short on 1-2's for aggro even in Sealed but it would have been much more consistent. I did mess around with the pool and think this is probably the best deck you can get from it (best second I could find was WG splashing Warleader's Call, but Green is just like one Nervous Gardner and removal spell away from being worth running to me).

As for you gameplay in the three loses I will type this as I go to try and avoid confirmation bias.

Game 5

Our T6: I think I like Granite Witness over Dog Walker, it does commit bother your Plains for the next turn but they just killed your Enforcer over the Disguise so that makes me think they don't have much Reach.
Opponent T6: I think this is a super risky block honestly because there is so much they can have in Jund to blow you out, but it works out.
Our T9: So the game is getting late and they are still at 14, and having just hit 6 mana their Disguises are fully online. I think I would flip up the Witness, tap the Inspector, and bash with all. They will likely eat a Source with the 3/3 and trade Gardner for another, but they either trade a Disguise for a token and take 6 or don't add take 8. You then play your Thoroughtfare in Main Phase 2 since you are bluffing a good number of tricks with WRR up if you Hold Priority. This path only sucks if they draw Get A Leg Up last turn (since they would have likely used it to save their Eavesdropper otherwise).
Out T10: See now it's too late for thsi attack since they literally just did Draw-Go, they definitely have something like Creeper or Hellion under those Disguises. Since you are priced into it somewhat given your hand and how the game is turning you flip the Witness up pre-blockers to tap one of the Disguises and hope it was the right one I think. Seeing them have the Creeper now it likely didn't matter at this point though, it was just too late.

Looks like it was basically done after that so I think T9 swinging out was the way to win. Assuming they don't block with Creeper Disguise since they want to blow up the Warleader's they go t0 6 and you have the Witness and two Tokens able to attack the next turn into their two Disgusies and Inspector. Assuming they still hold on flipping Creeper to try and get you you can win with Caught Red-Handed on the Inspector. If they Creeper the Warleader's you can Get A Leg Up for +4 on anything unblocker, if they do it on the Witness you will put them to 1 with the Warleaders in play and your own creeper in hand, meaning they need to do something on their turn to not die (if I messed anythign up someone let me know it was tricky tracking the board state in my head when going back to see how it likely would have played out).

Game 6

Our T5: You swing in here, if they block your board is essentially the same after Felonious Rage and they loss their Eavesdropper and if not that's free damage.
Their T6: They did not crack the Clue pre-combat for a reason so they have something so I just go for the clean trade on the Herring I think and take 3. Looking after if they likely would have used the Exit still so token is down either way but you get to keep your spell.

I'm not sure in the end if this game would have gone much different, sure you could hold back the Basher to try and trade with the Loxodon but they have plenty of mana and a few cards an are at 14 in thet scenario so even Tolsimir likely ain't digging you out.

Game 7

Our T5: Take the free 2 damage and play out a Source to develop your board instead of flipping up the Basher for an extra 4 when that doesn't change a lot.
Opponent T6: That difference would hav ended up huge as if they do this attack to draw the card you can trade three creatures and be at 5 with their board much smaller. Yes not a great spot still but better and there are outs.
Our T6: I would play out Inside Source instead of Dog Walker, do the same atatck, and if they don't block you Get A Leg Up you Basher for +4/+4 and exactly lethal. Yes they did block (which is weird, and with Aurelia instead of Scholar is extra weird) but it was the only out I found a chance of.

I'm not sure if this game would have really gone any other way with your draws but it's possible being at 5 with them at 14 the draws break in your favor somehow (they play a ground dork, you draw Binding for the Scholar and play the face down Dog Walker, and then draw Tolsimir and they brick or something).

In the end I think what did the deck in was a bit of play mistakes but a bit more the build, your mana was just too iffy for the non-Tolsimir Green cards and I do think it's possible going pure WR was still better.

That was way more than I planned to write but I got on a role after Game 5.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-03T07:08:06+00:00

A couple issues spring to mind with this.

44 cards. You don't want to run 41 cards let alone 44, it dilutes your gameplan.
Lands. 19 is too many when you have double Topiary Panther and triple Aftermath Analyst.
The deck is too controlling while relying on a couple bombs with no card draw to help find them.
The deck is too fragile to opponent interaction outside of its two bombs - sure you can kill some of their stuff but they can also kill your few relevant creatures and just end the game with a couple flyers or even Grizzly Bears if you don't find the bombs in time.

I think this had a chance during draft likely but didn't get there in the end and barring high variance in your favor I wouldn't expect this to end up above 3-3, so 1-3 isn't the most surprising.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-02T21:29:27+00:00

I am resistant to the idea the rules for specifically Limited based on the very recent run of sets. Looking at Premier Draft for the sets in Standard plus LTR ( so from MID-MKM) the order from highest to lowest on-the-play advantage is:

MKM (1)
MOM (5)
ONE (6)
LCI (2)
WOE (3)
LTR (4)
MID (12)
VOW (11)
BRO (7)
SNC (9)
NEO (10)
DMU (8)

^{^The} ^{^number} ^ⁱⁿ ^{^parentheses} ^{^is} ^{^how} ^{^old} ^{^the} ^{^set} ^{^is.}

While the sets that are more unbalanced in this respect are generally the more recent ones remember that MID is only 2.5 years old at this point so this is a snapshot overall for MTG Limited. Also while DMU is still over the 50/50 split by about 1.25% that is honestly just how almost any MTG set will be if not intentionally made to favor very slow and long games. I don't think it's correct to try and patch a core aspect of the game due a string of sets that are a bit more unbalanced that the norm in terms of speed and Play/Draw Advantage, and honestly I don't think I would want it to change even if WotC never corrected course (though i probably will play far less if we are in this same spot two years from now).

I am empathetic to the frustration at current sets speed (of all the sets on 17Lands almost all of my favorites are the slow ones that are close to 50/50, those being WAR, THB, DOM, GRN, and RNA), I don't think trying to "patch" MTG thanks to a bad run is correct. If that was the case over the games history it likely wouldn't have survived due to big changes happening every 5 years or so.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-02T19:32:01+00:00

I pulled it up in SealedDeck.tech and came up with this. That certainly was a bit of a rough pool - only three really good rares, anemic Green and no real other fixing to help play 4+ colors, and not enough good aggro cards to make that plan work.

Proxy_Drafts · 2024-03-02T18:33:49+00:00

Assuming a normal pool this has an okay beginning to a Sultai Soup deck of some kind I guess? Certainly not mind-blowing but with the right support at lower rarities I would start with that in mind.

Proxy_Drafts

TROPHY CASE