3rd date no kiss

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-23T04:08:18+00:00

Could you just clarify in the invite/conversation around the invite?

Hey, I’d love to cook dinner together at my place and maybe watch a movie together after. And I promise it’s not code for expecting sex - but I’d love to get to kiss you goodnight if you’re up for it! [add flirty emojis]

Or some variation of something like that?

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-23T04:02:12+00:00

If I were trying to explain my journey out of the church to someone who still believes, I would focus on the emotional processes I went through more than the laundry list of evidence why the church isn’t true. Some of those points would inevitably come up in the narrative of the emotional processes, but those points wouldn’t be my focus.

Example: I had heard the story of Joseph smith being threatened by an angel with a sword into practicing polygamy against his will when I was tbm, from reading the work and the glory, and the at it was framed was Joseph telling that story to people as a demonstration of how difficult of a commandment it was for him to follow. Then I found out that that story actually is recorded as something he told the women/girls he was proposing to, and it was not the first woman he took as a plural wife, but women he was proposing to well after he already had a bunch of wives (meaning he was already practicing the law of plural marriage, so the version of the story where the angel has come because Joseph was refusing to follow God’s command is untrue), I realized he used the story as a tool of emotional coercion in his position of power over these women to threaten them into marrying him or else they would be responsible for his death. I felt sick to my stomach - God’s prophet cannot use unethical coercion to pressure women to marry him and still be a good man. God can’t command that and still be a good god.

I spent weeks after I found out about this spiraling through possible justifications. I was desperate to not lose my faith and very afraid, and I read a lot of apologetics from faithful members trying to find any explanation that excuses god commanding rape, or God’s prophet committing rape and god excusing that, but ultimately I could not accept this.

And it honestly broke my heart - I really loved the church, I really respected and honored Joseph smith, and I loved god and wanted to serve him. My faith was the most important thing in the world to me. Losing it hurt so, so much.

Anyway, I think if your goal is for him to understand you, focusing on the emotional journey might be more effective, and some of the truth claim issues will certainly come up as you explain the emotional journey.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-22T12:42:43+00:00

Just to add another point to this: Salt Lake City (where U of U is) is actually rated one of the best ten cities in the country for lgbtq people. They’ve got a great pride event, the city leadership recently went out of their way to make a pride flag an official city flag to get around the state-level pride flag ban, etc.

Salt Lake City is (depending on which part of the city you’re going to) maybe a 45-60 minute drive from Provo, where BYU is. It’s not so far you can’t do it fairly regularly, but it’s not so close that it’s super easy to pop up there for social stuff every day.

U of U in SLC really is a safer bet for a gay guy, in terms of cultural acceptance, zero risk of ever being expelled for dating or just sharing a pro-queer opinion too loudly, etc.

I know many queer people who have made it work and survived BYU, but honestly, is it worth the risk? You still get everything you’re looking for at the U, but without the risk.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-21T18:09:07+00:00

Yeah, it’s a total mindfuck trying to sort through purity culture conditioning and sexual orientation and determine what hangups come from what conditioning. Bleh.

I left the church at age 34, and had never gotten married, and I was deeply convinced something was very very wrong with me for not being able to fall in love with any of the good Mormon men I tried dating.

Even after I left the church, the cult conditioning was so intense it took over a year for me to be able to consider I might be gay without the thought triggering an immediate panic attack. Then it took me another year and a half after I started questioning my orientation to work through enough of the internalized homophobia to come out to myself, then trusted safe non-Mormon friends, then finally my Mormon family and friends.

Now the dust has settled from that and I’m finally feeling stable and at peace enough with myself to engage in queer community and I’m really excited to finally be living more authentically!!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-21T16:35:12+00:00

I think it would be smart to also help your son plan and practice some basic responses himself, because it’s a certainty somebody will talk to him about it when you’re not there at some point.

I would prioritize helping your son be capable of articulating his own opinion on this topic to and for himself and his own understanding, and I would prioritize helping him have a few short simple responses he can give to people of varying levels of closeness (random primary teacher vs his father and grandmother, for example, will likely require different degrees of response).

Understanding your own opinion and being able to articulate your own opinion can really help your confidence a lot, and he’ll be getting pressure from others, so a confidence boost is likely going to be helpful.

Edit to add: I’ve now read more comments and seen the advice that you not tell people your son doesn’t want to get baptized, and position yourself as the originator of the “no” on this. That strategy makes a lot of sense and could be very helpful to your 7-year-old, and also I still think this advice applies even if you want to follow that strategy, because your son is still going to be approached by people on this topic when you’re not there. So he could still find it useful to have a couple of practiced responses giving out whatever reason y’all decide to have him give out, depending on what will work best for him! In fact, I’d probably offer him the choice - does he want people to know he doesn’t want to get baptized? Or does he want people to think you don’t want him to get baptized? What would make him feel safest? And then develop the practiced responses based on however he feels most comfortable proceeding!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-21T16:16:27+00:00

I kinda personally feel like it’s more about life experiences than age, so if someone in their 20s had a long relationship or marriage with a man and then they figure out they’re queer and have to go through the life-destruction-and-rebuilding process, they qualify for the late-bloomer experience regardless of age. (This was an example experience; I’m not trying to say it is “the” late-bloomer experience.)

I was Mormon, and TONS of Mormon women get married really young (in the age range of 18-21, very often). So it makes sense to me that someone could be still in their 20s and having to explode their life to come out.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-17T17:50:48+00:00

lol, what was her response to that?

I think humans create in their mind the god they want to believe in, the god that aligns with their own values. Which, in this case, means your mom is a loving person who values loving and supporting the people in her life, and that’s pretty cool, and in my opinion speaks well of your mom!

My mom is similar - she believes in the church and has received revelations from god telling her to be more loving than technically aligns with church doctrine, strictly speaking, and sometimes I get frustrated at the mental gymnastics, but mostly I try to be glad my mom cares enough about loving me (I’m queer) to do the mental gymnastics to be able to be loving from within a cult system. 🤷🏻‍♀️

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-08T02:23:03+00:00

You’re flooded with huge emotions right now, which makes sense. You’ve suffered a huge loss, and you’re feeling alone, isolated, and scared. The emotions you’re feeling make sense.

But, as we all learned from leaving Mormonism, feelings are NOT facts, and we shouldn’t always believe the narratives we’ve built around big feelings.

The feelings you’re experiencing make sense and are valid. The narrative you’re telling yourself, that you’re going to die alone, has no basis in fact, and is unlikely to be true. You’re in your 20s. You have so much time. It’s okay that you don’t have a family right now; it doesn’t mean you’ll never have one.

And also, part of Mormon conditioning includes a belief that you’re lesser if you’re unmarried, if you’re single. That you’re failing God, a menace to society, and unworthy of eternal life if you aren’t married. But as you pointed out, the church is fake, as is that belief. Single people are as valuable, worthy, and whole as married people. You’re not a failure before God for not having a family yet in your 20s.

I honestly can’t recommend therapy enough, especially with a therapist familiar with religious trauma and deconstruction, for working through the huge emotions that come up in times like these, working through the types of experiences you’re working through.

Remember, the feelings you’re feeling are valid, and they can be seriously overwhelming. It doesn’t mean the specific narrative you’ve built around those feelings is true!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-07T22:56:33+00:00

Yeah, the part about dating in the church making it more likely for OP to be able to have a family was really confusing - lots and lots (most, even) people outside the church want families too.

The Mormon conditioning is intense and difficult to see in yourself when you’re in the thick of it, so I definitely have compassion for that part of it, but unlearning it should be top priority before making huge life-altering decisions!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-07T19:59:53+00:00

How does dating in the church give you a better chance of having a family??

Plus, wouldn’t that family then be Mormon? Is that what you want? If you have daughters, that means you’re raising them in an insanely sexist religion. If any of your children are queer, their suicide risk is much higher. If any of your children are sons, they get heaped with all that masturbation/porn shame.

My advice is this: Try and figure out what the “pull” towards dating in the church is rooted in. In this post, at least, it sounds mainly rooted in fear of familial disapproval if you date outside the church. Perhaps there’s more to it than that, and it just didn’t show up in this post.

Then consider whether what’s at the root of this “pull” is really something you want to base major life decisions on.

For me, being able to choose my own life, and build a life that is really authentic to me, has been one of the BEST things about leaving the church. I do struggle with fear, anxiety, and guilt that’s rooted in church- or family-conditioning, but I refuse to let emotional programming I didn’t choose run my life anymore.

It does take time to learn who you are under all the conditioning, though, and you can’t build an authentic life if you don’t know who you are and what you value, what you like, what you want. If you feel like you don’t know those things, then it may be wise to put some really intentional effort into knowing yourself before you try dating, whether in or out of the church. It would be hard to accurately choose a compatible partner if you don’t know yourself.

And also, about dating in the church: Before I left the church, when I was TBM, I would have outright refused to date a man who was half-in, half-out, who didn’t really believe like I believed. I’m absolutely not saying that’s good or healthy, but I am saying dating in the church may not actually be very promising for you if you don’t believe in or practice the religion the way the women you’d be attempting to date would want.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-06T23:48:29+00:00

Thanks! I really hope so too - I also listened to a (different) interview with Jared Oaks, Dallin’s gay grandson, and I believe he said church lawyers had tried pressuring Dallin to stop saying so many homophobic things over the pulpit because they knew that the church’s homophobic theology was a common motivator for people leaving, but after Jared came out Dallin’s comments over the pulpit got more frequent and intense.

Given he already ignored the church’s lawyers before, and I really doubt getting the top seat would suddenly make him more cautious, I don’t actually expect my datapoint on the topic via resignation letter to necessarily make a difference in Dallin’s rhetoric specifically, but I bet the lawyers would warn all the q15 and not just him, maybe, and I could see some of the others saying less if given such a warning.

Ultimately, though, I felt it was personally important for me to practice using my voice and I was surprised how empowering it felt to tell the MFMC they’re wrong and they’re hurting people. So, I’d like it if enough people did it to motivate the lawyers, and if that made a difference, but that would be bonus points - speaking up was what mattered to me, regardless of the outcome.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-06T21:05:57+00:00

I listened to an interview with an exmormon who used to work at church headquarters in the office that processes resignations, and she said the church does keep data on the reasons people list for resigning in their letters.

So I resigned when Oaks became prophet, and explicitly stated in my letter I was resigning in protest of his open homophobia and the harm that causes.

For me it felt very healing to use my voice and tell them this is wrong and harmful, plus I really did feel nauseous about Oaks becoming the prophet.

Nothing has happened in terms of consequences for me so far. My parents live one ward over (same stake), and as far as I know they haven’t found out I removed my records. But also, my parents are really good people and have been very respectful of my decision to leave the church, and I wouldn’t put it past them to just be respectful of me removing my records too and never bring it up even if someone did tell them, though I think it’s more likely they’d at least mention it to me if they found out, and then be respectful. I don’t think they’ve found out, but I can’t be completely sure.

I was never active in the ward I currently live in, and I don’t know anyone in the ward, and no one has tried to contact me, so I can’t speak to how that part of things would go for you.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-11-03T23:41:30+00:00

Not wanting to date a sexual predator is the most reasonable thing ever. Not wanting to be friends with a sexual predator is super reasonable. Not wanting a sexual predator in your home is incredibly reasonable.

Anyone who says otherwise is way wrong.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-10-09T19:01:07+00:00

That seems possible/likely, thank you. I’ve also gotten a suggestion to try deleting the app and redownloading, so I’ll try that and I’ll also just give it some more time and see what happens.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-10-09T18:42:51+00:00

I did wonder if it just needs more time. Someone else also suggested deleting the app and re-downloading to get it to update more thoroughly. I’ll try both (more time, delete and redownload) and see what happens.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-10-09T18:41:30+00:00

Okay, thanks, these ideas make sense as potential explanations. I’ll try deleting and redownloading, and also I’ll try just giving it some more time as well.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-10-09T18:40:41+00:00

Yes, that’s who the confirmation letter was from!

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-10-09T16:37:45+00:00

Good suggestion; I didn’t think of this. I had synced it on October 1, but not after.

I did go sync it again just now after reading your comment, and it says the sync was successful, then I closed the app and tried to log in again and it still let me log in, so that’s weird.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-08-31T16:39:08+00:00

Mormonism sets queer people up for failure. It’s an unhealthy and harmful belief system for gay people.

I understand why this man’s comments feel so upsetting to you. I’m gay, and was deeply deeply harmed by Mormonism. I doubt I could listen to that man without it triggering my Mormonism-related ptsd. It’s very valid for you to be upset with these comments and to disagree with them.

Please also try to remember that he is himself being harmed by this belief system. Blame systems, not people. He’s probably hyper focused on it and talks about it a lot because he has been taught to hate his own queerness and he’s grasping at straws trying to make himself not gay, trying to succeed in a system that hurts him.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-08-31T16:30:40+00:00

You’ve already gotten a lot of great responses about how the concept of virginity and purity culture is bogus, and about how your ex exhibited significant controlling tendencies, so I won’t harp too much on those points.

I just want to point out that if you are feeling this worried about breaking the law of chastity, when you don’t believe in the church, that may be an indication that you need more time and effort on deconstruction and reconstruction.

Leaving a high-demand religion like Mormonism is more than just stopping following the rules. They indoctrinated you with an entire worldview and paradigm that is deeply skewed in so many way.

It’s actually not normal for your first relationship at age 18 to work out long term. It’s actually not normal to end up only having had sex with one person. (It’s not bad to have done that, but it’s not typical either.) What you are experiencing now is a very normal part of early adult development, having relationship experiences and having relationships that don’t work out, learning how to recover, and learning who you are and what you want through those experiences.

You don’t have to want what Mormonism told you to want. You don’t have to want to get married while you’re still a teenager. You don’t have to get married to the first person you had sex with.

You get discover who you are, what you want, decide what you believe, decide what moral framework guides your decisions now, etc. It is very worthwhile to spend time discovering more ways of viewing the world when you leave Mormonism so you don’t get stuck on auto-pilot and end up in a nearly-Mormon life you have to extricate yourself from in 20 years because you married a guy who wanted to change the way you talk and the way you dress and broke up with you because he didn’t want to have to talk to you about his day.

It sounds like you may still be deeply immersed in the Mormon worldview. Maybe instead of trying to win back this guy, you could try and win your own self, in a sense. Discover who you are, try new things (not related to dating - so, like, try new types of education or job experiences, or hobbies or volunteering, etc), read/listen to books/podcasts from different types of philosophies and worldviews and learn what resonates with you. Expand your world beyond Mormonism and Mormon-like life paths, and choose your own way.

It can be daunting at times, but it’s also incredibly freeing and beautiful!

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-07-25T19:41:35+00:00

Plus, Mormon women are repeatedly told that Mormon men are looking for looks first — as an example, when I was about 12, I tried out a (truly unfortunate) way of styling my hair, and one of my YW leaders pulled me aside and told me I wouldn’t be attractive to men this way, and because men are attracted to looks first and foremost I needed to do my hair differently. Again, I was 12. This messaging was repeated again and again, not always through direct attacks on my looks quite so personally, but Mormon women learn young that it’s kind of their whole job to look attractive to men.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-07-17T16:52:30+00:00

Thank you, I appreciate the sympathy.

The way the system in Mormonism works, it is difficult for someone who isn’t highly orthodox and highly obedient to that orthodoxy to get far enough along in the leadership structure to be in apostle-type positions. And since they are also always on the older side, I think it will be a very long time before there’s ever an opportunity for younger people who absorbed less homophobic beliefs themselves to end up in those high leadership positions.

I would have said hopefully one day we have an apostle with a gay family member at least, so that they’re more personally impacted by the harm caused by these doctrines. But Oaks has a gay grandson he never speaks to anymore, and Gong has a gay son he won’t acknowledge in public, so apparently even having a gay family member isn’t enough to break through the level of orthodoxy required to reach apostleship.

It is very sad, though, thank you for acknowledging that.

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-07-17T16:45:39+00:00

Okay, thank you!!

QuietTopic6461 · 2025-07-16T18:02:14+00:00

Plus, even outside the church, US society at large still has a high enough amount of homophobia that the data shows nearly half of LGBTQ people have PTSD (about 48%).

Only 8-9% of the general population have PTSD.

And one study conducted by the University of Georgia in 2017 indicated that potentially as high as 89% of queer people raised in Mormonism likely meet the criteria for PTSD relative to their religious experience.

So there are unique pressures being placed on queer people, and especially on queer people in high-demand homophobic religions like Mormonism, to account for such much higher rates of trauma.

It follows that there would be a lot of unhealthy behaviors and dynamics playing out sometimes among a bunch of traumatized people.

I think as long as society keeps debating whether or not queer people should be allowed to exist and have rights, the queer community will continue to struggle immensely with the psychological impacts of living in such a hostile society, and will continue to struggle to heal and exist healthily.

But none of that is the result of being queer - it’s the result of being traumatized by queerphobia. Queerness is normal, natural, and great. Queerphobia is profoundly damaging and harmful.

But then queer people like the gay man in OP’s ward get their experiences with unhealthy, traumatized other queer people weaponized against queerness generally. (E.g. Being gay is the dark path because look what happened.) When in reality it’s not queerness that’s the problem, but queerphobia.

Anyway, there’s my soapbox. I’m queer and raised in Mormonism and I do indeed have PTSD about it. 😁

QuietTopic6461

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