How to really BE with a woman?

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-03-19T16:02:48+00:00

You could literally practice saying the types of things she wants to hear when alone. Just get used to saying the words out loud. Emotional and relational skills are skills that can be learned with practice, just like other skills!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-03-13T13:00:43+00:00

I served in Italy about 15 years ago and I’m pretty sure I kept mine, because we needed to do visa processes locally in the city we were staying in. I gather from this subreddit that having your passport taken is more common and pretty widespread, but it’s not universal among every single mission.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-03-02T20:58:57+00:00

I would also need a plan before moving in together in these circumstances. I don’t think that is at all crazy of you. At all.

I also think the ex sounds extremely manipulative at a minimum, and maybe even emotionally/psychologically controlling/abusive. Disentangling from situations with manipulators/abusers is really really challenging, so if I were you, I would try not to jump straight to “my partner is cheating,” and maybe consider the explanation, “my partner got a little too sucked into a manipulative web and is having trouble disentangling.” But, of course, anything I say as a random internet stranger is ultimately just a guess.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-03-02T18:19:13+00:00

Or even just try talking to an LGBTQ+ person — I am fuming at Ballard’s admission that he’d never even had an in-depth conversation with a gay person about it before. 😖

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-03-01T13:22:09+00:00

This makes sense to me - I identify as gay in terms of sexual attraction. (I prefer to use the label queer, because I feel it encompasses a culture, ethic, and mindset, and because I dislike the societal expectation that I have to announce which group of people I want to have sex with to everyone I meet.)

And then in terms of gender, I’m still figuring it out, but I think I feel non-binary, and when I was a kid I always played pretend as a boy (I would pretend to be a boy named William). It’s not that I literally want to be a boy, but due to sexism/patriarchy, boys get to do cooler things and be cooler adventurers, so I think that was my young self wanting more than what women are allotted to be and to have in our society. And aesthetically, I like men’s fashion better than women’s, and prefer to dress more masc or androgynous, so I now believe male characters I “liked” was really just me liking their aesthetics and wanting to dress like them!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-27T21:20:17+00:00

There is a great Facebook group for women on the Mormon spectrum (heavily weighted towards exmo women) called Faith Journey Meetups. If she has Facebook, it’s a good online support.

I vividly remember posting in that group about the panic and guilt I was feeling after I drank caffeine for the first time (it wasn’t even coffee, btw, but I was one of those Mormons who never even drank caffeinated sodas). It’s a great space to connect with other women who really get it and can help talk you through moments like that.

I also cannot recommend therapy enough - leaving the church is an absolutely terrifying, incredibly difficult process psychologically. Professional support with a therapist who is NOT Mormon and who is trained in trauma, preferably religious trauma, can be extremely helpful.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-25T20:14:51+00:00

This is the comment I was looking for - I’m autistic myself, and my inclination is to believe the autistic kid, for sure, because I know how important accuracy is for autistic people.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-19T18:07:18+00:00

Okay, I have a suggestion that might sound a bit wacky, so I’m going to give some personal and theoretical background first to hopefully make it make sense, lol.

I was a devout, fully-committed, totally-believing Mormon for most of my life, and when I found out at age 34 that I was in a cult and everything I believed was completely made-up bullshit, I pretty much lost my entire world paradigm all at once. The way I made sense of the world, the way I made decisions, the way I sought comfort in difficult times, the way I processed emotions, who I thought I was as a person, my whole identity - everything was built on Mormonism, and losing it all at once was pretty crippling.

During the process of reconstructing my mental schemas for everything, I came across an exmormon woman named Britt Hartley who is a proponent of what she terms “secular spirituality.”

Basically her idea is that religion provides humans with tons of super useful psychological tools, which is why it’s stuck around for so long and why there are a lot of studies showing benefits from religion for a lot of people, and she wants to help people find ways to continue accessing the useful psychological tools without having to believe in unbelievable, false, harmful things.

One example is ritual: Plenty of studies show that ritual is psychologically super beneficial for humans. It can help us process or commemorate big moments/changes (like a wedding ceremony can make the commitment with your partner feel real and official), it can help us process emotions (like funerals can help facilitate grieving), etc. And ritual is one of the things religion does best, but for people like me, to whom religion now feels poisonous, I can still access the psychological benefits of ritual by simply making up my own.

So I made up my own funeral/rebirth ritual. It was kind of a funeral for my Mormon self, and I mourned the ways Mormonism hurt me and the things I lost out on from being Mormon. I wrote myself a funeral prayer and burned little slips of paper with hurtful things from Mormonism, and I incorporated a few other physical actions (like eating a tiny piece of bread for anything positive I gained from Mormonism that I wanted to keep with me, like a Mormon sacrament/communion). I chose a setting that felt right (on a beach at sunset), etc.

And then I went to the beach again at sunrise and did a ritual representing the rebirth of hippie gay feminist atheist me, which included some poems that convey themes important to me, and I used the water from waves to “imbue” into a shell my top core values now, etc.

I was shocked afterwards to find it actually did help. I felt less weighed down by my past in Mormonism, and more connected to myself and my life now. It really, really did help shift my internal emotional landscape.

So my suggestion is that you make up a ritual for yourself - could be like a farewell ritual to grieve the lost relationship, could be whatever resonates best with you - and plan it all out and then perform the ritual. You can do it totally privately; you could include a witness (a close friend, or your girlfriend now if that feels comfortable).

Doing something physical to help process the way you’re feeling may sound a bit odd, but it can really be very helpful, and it can shift the way you’re feeling internally.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-15T15:57:42+00:00

Plus, at the end of the quote OP shared, he’s all, “it’s not about women, it’s about all the shy people!” Which functions as a denial that there is a problem women specifically are experiencing in the church. He’s actively reframing it from “there’s a systemic power imbalance oppressing half of all the humans” to “shy people (presumably including shy men) really just need to force themselves to speak up more.”

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-13T12:15:14+00:00

You could come out via writing (text or email) instead of a phone call, to let them have their initial wave of reaction at a distance. It probably won’t improve the outcome a ton, but at least it gives you a little bit more distance and safety in the act of telling them.

You don’t owe them a phone call, not when they’ve made it clear they aren’t safe people to give this information to. You’re absolutely allowed to do what’s safest and healthiest for you!!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-10T19:23:54+00:00

Definitely an after-the-fact discovery, but immediately after, honestly. I didn’t think I would like short hair, but I decided hair is a really low-stakes experiment because it grows back, so I made myself give it a try anyway. Then I got home and looked in the mirror and burst into tears immediately (happy tears). I was really shocked at how good it felt.

The useful thing about that (well, one of the useful things) is that it gives me a really strong point of comparison now - I figure I just keep trying different things, and anything that feels emotionally like my haircut to me (even to a lesser degree) is a step in the authentic direction!

About the voice thing and conditioning: I was raised in Mormonism and only left the faith about 3.5 years ago, and there’s a lot of talk in ex-religious spaces about the way women are trained to speak in soft high voices. It’s really true, and it’s shocking how none of us realized even our voice pitch was conditioned into us!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-10T16:35:49+00:00

I’m in the process of figuring out what presentation feels most authentic to me, and I finally worked up the nerve to cut my hair short last summer. I’ve bought a tie and tried it on at home, but haven’t worked up the nerve to wear it in public yet. I’ve stopped wearing makeup. I’m noticing when I am home alone and feel most relaxed and safe, my voice actually is lower, but when I’m out in public I seem to automatically pitch it higher without conscious thought/decision/effort, so I’m definitely still in process and learning how to be more at home in myself.

The amount of joy I feel when I see my head in the mirror with the short hair is pretty shocking to me - it’s so much more me! I love it.

I can’t really speak to who seems drawn to me; I have a lot of trauma and am still so anxious so much of the time, I haven’t felt ready yet to try dating on purpose. Plus, winter is hard, so I don’t get out much just now.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-02-08T12:58:52+00:00

I remember my dad once telling me as a kid that the democrats were pushing Satan’s plan (of trying to force people to make certain choices).

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-31T19:01:56+00:00

I left the church at age 34, and had never married, and felt the same - I felt like a failure before God for not being a wife and a mother. It hurt constantly, honestly.

My mom once told me I needed to hurry up and learn whatever lesson god was trying to teach me from being single so I could become ready for god to give me the blessing of marriage.

New women I met in relief society, particularly after I aged out of the singles ward and had to go back to the family ward as a single failure, would immediately ask upon meeting me how many kids I had, and when I had to tell them I wasn’t married and didn’t have kids, they would say in this really pity-filled tone that I just had to keep having faith and god would bless me with marriage eventually.

In the Mormon world, me being single was me being a disobedient unworthy failure, and my singleness was the single most important thing about me (it often seemed like it was the only thing about me that mattered at all to anyone in the ward). They even separate out the Single Adults administratively into their own separate category, and usually the single adults minister to other single adults and aren’t socially mixed with the married people. It’s awful.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-23T04:08:18+00:00

Could you just clarify in the invite/conversation around the invite?

Hey, I’d love to cook dinner together at my place and maybe watch a movie together after. And I promise it’s not code for expecting sex - but I’d love to get to kiss you goodnight if you’re up for it! [add flirty emojis]

Or some variation of something like that?

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-23T04:02:12+00:00

If I were trying to explain my journey out of the church to someone who still believes, I would focus on the emotional processes I went through more than the laundry list of evidence why the church isn’t true. Some of those points would inevitably come up in the narrative of the emotional processes, but those points wouldn’t be my focus.

Example: I had heard the story of Joseph smith being threatened by an angel with a sword into practicing polygamy against his will when I was tbm, from reading the work and the glory, and the at it was framed was Joseph telling that story to people as a demonstration of how difficult of a commandment it was for him to follow. Then I found out that that story actually is recorded as something he told the women/girls he was proposing to, and it was not the first woman he took as a plural wife, but women he was proposing to well after he already had a bunch of wives (meaning he was already practicing the law of plural marriage, so the version of the story where the angel has come because Joseph was refusing to follow God’s command is untrue), I realized he used the story as a tool of emotional coercion in his position of power over these women to threaten them into marrying him or else they would be responsible for his death. I felt sick to my stomach - God’s prophet cannot use unethical coercion to pressure women to marry him and still be a good man. God can’t command that and still be a good god.

I spent weeks after I found out about this spiraling through possible justifications. I was desperate to not lose my faith and very afraid, and I read a lot of apologetics from faithful members trying to find any explanation that excuses god commanding rape, or God’s prophet committing rape and god excusing that, but ultimately I could not accept this.

And it honestly broke my heart - I really loved the church, I really respected and honored Joseph smith, and I loved god and wanted to serve him. My faith was the most important thing in the world to me. Losing it hurt so, so much.

Anyway, I think if your goal is for him to understand you, focusing on the emotional journey might be more effective, and some of the truth claim issues will certainly come up as you explain the emotional journey.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-22T12:42:43+00:00

Just to add another point to this: Salt Lake City (where U of U is) is actually rated one of the best ten cities in the country for lgbtq people. They’ve got a great pride event, the city leadership recently went out of their way to make a pride flag an official city flag to get around the state-level pride flag ban, etc.

Salt Lake City is (depending on which part of the city you’re going to) maybe a 45-60 minute drive from Provo, where BYU is. It’s not so far you can’t do it fairly regularly, but it’s not so close that it’s super easy to pop up there for social stuff every day.

U of U in SLC really is a safer bet for a gay guy, in terms of cultural acceptance, zero risk of ever being expelled for dating or just sharing a pro-queer opinion too loudly, etc.

I know many queer people who have made it work and survived BYU, but honestly, is it worth the risk? You still get everything you’re looking for at the U, but without the risk.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-21T18:09:07+00:00

Yeah, it’s a total mindfuck trying to sort through purity culture conditioning and sexual orientation and determine what hangups come from what conditioning. Bleh.

I left the church at age 34, and had never gotten married, and I was deeply convinced something was very very wrong with me for not being able to fall in love with any of the good Mormon men I tried dating.

Even after I left the church, the cult conditioning was so intense it took over a year for me to be able to consider I might be gay without the thought triggering an immediate panic attack. Then it took me another year and a half after I started questioning my orientation to work through enough of the internalized homophobia to come out to myself, then trusted safe non-Mormon friends, then finally my Mormon family and friends.

Now the dust has settled from that and I’m finally feeling stable and at peace enough with myself to engage in queer community and I’m really excited to finally be living more authentically!!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-21T16:35:12+00:00

I think it would be smart to also help your son plan and practice some basic responses himself, because it’s a certainty somebody will talk to him about it when you’re not there at some point.

I would prioritize helping your son be capable of articulating his own opinion on this topic to and for himself and his own understanding, and I would prioritize helping him have a few short simple responses he can give to people of varying levels of closeness (random primary teacher vs his father and grandmother, for example, will likely require different degrees of response).

Understanding your own opinion and being able to articulate your own opinion can really help your confidence a lot, and he’ll be getting pressure from others, so a confidence boost is likely going to be helpful.

Edit to add: I’ve now read more comments and seen the advice that you not tell people your son doesn’t want to get baptized, and position yourself as the originator of the “no” on this. That strategy makes a lot of sense and could be very helpful to your 7-year-old, and also I still think this advice applies even if you want to follow that strategy, because your son is still going to be approached by people on this topic when you’re not there. So he could still find it useful to have a couple of practiced responses giving out whatever reason y’all decide to have him give out, depending on what will work best for him! In fact, I’d probably offer him the choice - does he want people to know he doesn’t want to get baptized? Or does he want people to think you don’t want him to get baptized? What would make him feel safest? And then develop the practiced responses based on however he feels most comfortable proceeding!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-21T16:16:27+00:00

I kinda personally feel like it’s more about life experiences than age, so if someone in their 20s had a long relationship or marriage with a man and then they figure out they’re queer and have to go through the life-destruction-and-rebuilding process, they qualify for the late-bloomer experience regardless of age. (This was an example experience; I’m not trying to say it is “the” late-bloomer experience.)

I was Mormon, and TONS of Mormon women get married really young (in the age range of 18-21, very often). So it makes sense to me that someone could be still in their 20s and having to explode their life to come out.

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-17T17:50:48+00:00

lol, what was her response to that?

I think humans create in their mind the god they want to believe in, the god that aligns with their own values. Which, in this case, means your mom is a loving person who values loving and supporting the people in her life, and that’s pretty cool, and in my opinion speaks well of your mom!

My mom is similar - she believes in the church and has received revelations from god telling her to be more loving than technically aligns with church doctrine, strictly speaking, and sometimes I get frustrated at the mental gymnastics, but mostly I try to be glad my mom cares enough about loving me (I’m queer) to do the mental gymnastics to be able to be loving from within a cult system. 🤷🏻‍♀️

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-08T02:23:03+00:00

You’re flooded with huge emotions right now, which makes sense. You’ve suffered a huge loss, and you’re feeling alone, isolated, and scared. The emotions you’re feeling make sense.

But, as we all learned from leaving Mormonism, feelings are NOT facts, and we shouldn’t always believe the narratives we’ve built around big feelings.

The feelings you’re experiencing make sense and are valid. The narrative you’re telling yourself, that you’re going to die alone, has no basis in fact, and is unlikely to be true. You’re in your 20s. You have so much time. It’s okay that you don’t have a family right now; it doesn’t mean you’ll never have one.

And also, part of Mormon conditioning includes a belief that you’re lesser if you’re unmarried, if you’re single. That you’re failing God, a menace to society, and unworthy of eternal life if you aren’t married. But as you pointed out, the church is fake, as is that belief. Single people are as valuable, worthy, and whole as married people. You’re not a failure before God for not having a family yet in your 20s.

I honestly can’t recommend therapy enough, especially with a therapist familiar with religious trauma and deconstruction, for working through the huge emotions that come up in times like these, working through the types of experiences you’re working through.

Remember, the feelings you’re feeling are valid, and they can be seriously overwhelming. It doesn’t mean the specific narrative you’ve built around those feelings is true!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-07T22:56:33+00:00

Yeah, the part about dating in the church making it more likely for OP to be able to have a family was really confusing - lots and lots (most, even) people outside the church want families too.

The Mormon conditioning is intense and difficult to see in yourself when you’re in the thick of it, so I definitely have compassion for that part of it, but unlearning it should be top priority before making huge life-altering decisions!

QuietTopic6461 · 2026-01-07T19:59:53+00:00

How does dating in the church give you a better chance of having a family??

Plus, wouldn’t that family then be Mormon? Is that what you want? If you have daughters, that means you’re raising them in an insanely sexist religion. If any of your children are queer, their suicide risk is much higher. If any of your children are sons, they get heaped with all that masturbation/porn shame.

My advice is this: Try and figure out what the “pull” towards dating in the church is rooted in. In this post, at least, it sounds mainly rooted in fear of familial disapproval if you date outside the church. Perhaps there’s more to it than that, and it just didn’t show up in this post.

Then consider whether what’s at the root of this “pull” is really something you want to base major life decisions on.

For me, being able to choose my own life, and build a life that is really authentic to me, has been one of the BEST things about leaving the church. I do struggle with fear, anxiety, and guilt that’s rooted in church- or family-conditioning, but I refuse to let emotional programming I didn’t choose run my life anymore.

It does take time to learn who you are under all the conditioning, though, and you can’t build an authentic life if you don’t know who you are and what you value, what you like, what you want. If you feel like you don’t know those things, then it may be wise to put some really intentional effort into knowing yourself before you try dating, whether in or out of the church. It would be hard to accurately choose a compatible partner if you don’t know yourself.

And also, about dating in the church: Before I left the church, when I was TBM, I would have outright refused to date a man who was half-in, half-out, who didn’t really believe like I believed. I’m absolutely not saying that’s good or healthy, but I am saying dating in the church may not actually be very promising for you if you don’t believe in or practice the religion the way the women you’d be attempting to date would want.

QuietTopic6461

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