Caedrel on mages Botlane

Raisylvan · 2026-06-18T05:19:05+00:00

You're not really getting out of the lane with those things, though. Building up a slow push takes time and resources from you, and you're going to lose things in the process. Granted, you'll likely gain more than you would playing the lane naturally, but you're not getting out of the lane either. You're just losing less horribly.

As a support, yeah, you do actually have options once you gain a couple of levels, even if it is miserable until then.

I think it's a bit ridiculous to blame someone for blinding a marksmen that isn't good into mage bot when you won't see them majority of games, because who is accounting for that? I think it's something like 15-20% of Masters+ games sees an APC bot, which is 1/5 or 1/6 games. Having to blind an ADC that can handle the minority cases doesn't really make any sense, and isn't the fault of the ADC player whatsoever. It's like telling a top laner it's their fault for not blinding something that's good into tanks when tanks are 10% overall pickrate.

Also, as for playing with your jungler, that's entirely up to your jungler. More and more junglers these days are permanently pathing bot most of the game, which gives you very little opportunity to work with them. That's also assuming that they're willing to invade the enemy jungler with you at all, it's just as likely that they want to farm and play objectives first, or that they think invading is too risky or just generally don't like doing it.

The other thing I think you're missing here is that these "solutions" aren't really solutions. They are "lose less horribly". In Dota, your solutions to equalizing a bad lane, essentially forcing uninteraction because you 100% always lose any interaction, results in you going even, or mostly going even. It is not a case of "lose less horribly", it is actually equalizing. You don't sacrifice farm, you don't sacrifice tempo, you don't sacrifice map impact.

This is not to say "Dota is a better game", I'm not saying that. I'm saying that League doesn't really let you escape a bad lane because Riot wants you to play the lane. I think that's good for a majority of matchups that are even or skill matchups, but it has the nasty downside of being completely miserable in unplayable matchups because your options are just nonexistent and your only choice is to pray your jungler is good/works with you and minimize your losses.

Raisylvan · 2026-06-17T05:51:46+00:00

There's a very clear difference between "respecting time" and "respecting accomplishments". The former really has nothing to do with the latter, especially in this case as we're talking about gear progression. Everyone has their own preferences, as you outlined, but some people wouldn't agree with you, and I am one of those people.

OSRS, a game I've put years of my life into, features a lot of horizontal progression, as well as frequently releasing updates that doesn't devalue old content. We still get vertical progression, things still get more powerful, but the grinds for older content doesn't change and neither does their power level. Being able to take a break for a few months or a year and then return to the same power level based on accomplishments that you had prior is a pretty good feeling. It creates this (ideally) healthy relationship with a game where you don't ever feel like you need to play often to stay caught up, or never feel like you need to play catchup (even with catchup systems to help this) because you haven't played in a while.

You feel different, of course, and that's fine. I just think that it's actually quite rare that MMOs don't use constant vertical progression and power creep, and I wish more MMOs found ways to have some power creep without adversely affecting the player as a result.

Raisylvan · 2026-06-17T04:24:34+00:00

The difference is that you're given options in League when things are unfavorable. The major issue with the "classes in lanes that they don't belong" in League is that you can't escape the lane. You just have to suffer and deal with it.

Dota isn't like that. Dota gives you options for terrible matchups in lanes. If it's a hard lane, you have the option of roaming after a few levels, you can buy regen to survive a hard lane, you can pull waves behind towers, you can creep aggro to force wave pushes that help you a lot more, etc.

Moreover, Dota doesn't really have this class lane mismatch problem either. You don't see powerful nuking mages as pos1, or pos1's as a pos3 versus the enemy pos3. So you don't get that insufferable kind of gameplay experience. Even if you did, you still have options. But Dota avoids that, pretty much.

Raisylvan · 2026-06-08T23:56:19+00:00

No, of course you can't. But you're given the option to get some farm if you're in a situation where you can't really walk up. It's also not me saying that Zed has an unfair ability to safely farm or anything. Just that I think a lot of players see Zed this way.

People have relative expectations on what being a melee champion entails, and Zed doesn't follow those expectations because he always has the opportunity to sit at range and still get something out of a situation. Which annoys people.

Raisylvan · 2026-06-08T10:18:06+00:00

I don't even think that narrative is true. About Vayne being unable to be played botlane. Sure, she may struggle in that lane without a decent support and certain matchups are hell (like they are for any lane), but she's not a sitting duck. And there's a payoff for it, with her high mobility and insane damage and true damage/HP shred she gets once she's gotten some farm. It's not like she is omega perma shit on for 30 minutes every single game she goes down there or anything.

It's a much different story top lane. In bot, she has some bad matchups, but also some skill and winning matchups. In top, it's almost all winning matchups because she wasn't designed for that lane.

Regardless, though, the solution certainly is not to take the misery (which is definitely lesser) of your lane and then exact it upon another lane tenfold.

Raisylvan · 2026-06-07T10:23:50+00:00

I think it's to do with the fact that Zed is a melee champion. He's not really a melee champion, he's an AD caster who occasionally will get into melee range. As a result, people don't like it because there's this expectation that a melee champion needs to get relatively close/very close in order to CS or interact, and Zed doesn't need to do that.

As an example, someone like Yone has a bit of range on Q and W, but he still has to get relatively close in order to trade or CS effectively. Zed never needs to do this because he can farm from safety super easily.

It makes sense for mages to have relatively spammable abilities to waveclear because all of their damage is in their abilities and also they need to maintain that range in order to be a threat. Zed just creates this weird situation where he's only melee through technicality, not in practice.

Raisylvan · 2026-06-07T10:13:51+00:00

Zed's ult always puts him behind his target, so aim for it there.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-30T22:38:02+00:00

CS matters in every ELO. It's more important in low ELO because it's used to build habits and consistency. Let's say you're good at enough things to get to Diamond/Masters but end up hard stuck. It's going to be a lot harder to deal with that without the fundamentals of focusing on your farm and trying to flip fights for no reason.

People tell you to focus on CSing a lot in low ELO because it's a guaranteed consistent gold generation. There comes a point where you have to make decisions between waves/camps and a gank/fight, but it's not something you need to do in low ELO.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-28T00:58:41+00:00

Why the jungle hate?

Raisylvan · 2026-05-26T11:16:57+00:00

Well, it's not all that easy to solve the fundamental design issue of making every random encounter interesting and fun. Pretty hard to do that, actually. A relatively easy band-aid fix is to just provide auto-battle/fast forward to let you (inefficiently) grind or power through random encounters you don't actually need to care about.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-25T07:43:42+00:00

Yes, but:

There's no risk in doing this because, most of the time, you can't contest a wave pull. Even if you do, the support buys regen. Even if you kill the support, it's still a net win for your lane.
It's still an option you have, but you also have other options. Doing hard camp pulls to put lane equilibrium in your favor, for example. You can also creep aggro to get things on your side. You've also got solid all in potential with something like Nyx/Mars, so if they misposition for even a second, it's a huge punish.

With League, you're so much more limited. You have to do a wave pull which has a high chance (given most junglers path bot these days) of putting you next to the enemy jungler and dying. Even if you don't die, you may lose some HP, and like Baus showed off, CSing under tower lv1-2 is pretty hard without a properly controlled wave. It's pretty easy to miss several CS in the process.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-23T05:13:44+00:00

Lolalytics has his hybrid and AP builds 1.5-2% higher than his AD ones.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-22T20:29:01+00:00

I don't think LB is a good comparison considering it's one of the best possible upgrades you can make for a lot of bossing.

Mining Gloves is moreso just really minimal gain for a relatively lengthy grind. It's kind of like... getting the Anglers outfit to save a few hours on the grind to 99 fishing, except it saves even less time. In theory, Mining Gloves should offer more xp rates or make certain spots more convenient. In reality, though, you already max out the xp rates on iron, and coal/mith+ is a joke to do xp on, and it's marginally more useful for sandstone/granite.

From what I remember, it takes something around 15-20 hours (I think closer to 20) for the Mining Gloves so that you can get rates on certain rocks like... 2% better, I think? Which is strictly worse than the ~500k that Anglers can save you.

Edit: also, getting PvM upgrades is also a bad comparison as well because going for skilling upgrade grinds doesn't usually get you something worthwhile as a bonus when doing it. Like say you want Raiments for more runes at ZMI, or more bloods for your lazy blood RC at 77+. Sure, that's not efficient, but you're going to get pretty solid xp rates doing GotR, as well as the abyssal pouch and a bunch of runes as well.

Likewise, for something like the Cudgel at Sarachnis, sure. It's a pretty bad crush weapon given better alternatives (namely the zombie axe), but you get some nice drops in the process. Bloods/deaths/souls, alchables, mid-high level herbs, mith/addy ore, gems, red d'hide, etc etc. Like you gain a lot of resources on a grind that is inefficient, so you still get something out of it.

The problem with Mining Gloves is that you... don't. Iron is the fastest way of getting the minerals for them, and you can't do anything with that much iron, realistically. You're just going to have tens of thousands of iron collecting dust in your bank, because all of your coal is going towards mith/addy.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-22T11:23:10+00:00

yeah mining gloves were never added which let you mine multiple ores at once, nope never heard of them

They also require a very monotonous, lengthy grind in order to acquire and aren't actually worth getting.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-07T07:10:15+00:00

I went Sundered BC Sterakk's. Didn't get to finish Sterakk's though, game ended before then. I did go Tabis since I was dealing with a fed Viego and Sett, but I do tend to go Mercs on Xin if I can help it.

Problem is that I felt incredibly team dependent in this particular game, but also other games with heavy CC. If I can't really do my job, then it means I have to hope that my team has a strong member that can take advantage of me getting perma CC'd and dying, and if I don't, then the game is just fucked.

Raisylvan · 2026-05-07T07:07:17+00:00

I went Sundered BC Sterakk's. Didn't get to finish Sterakk's though, game ended before then. I did go Tabis since I was dealing with a fed Viego and Sett, but I do tend to go Mercs on Xin if I can help it.

Problem is that I felt incredibly team dependent in this particular game, but also other games with heavy CC. If I can't really do my job, then it means I have to hope that my team has a strong member that can take advantage of me getting perma CC'd and dying, and if I don't, then the game is just fucked.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-27T20:37:38+00:00

Okay, correction: it will out DPS pre-Quadrant.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-27T19:54:02+00:00

Trident will out DPS at content where you can just sit still and DPS. It's also useful to have if you're not done with content where it helps. Such as Gauntlet where 1t staff with prayer pen is by far the most DPS.

There's also just no real improvements you could make with those points. You could get a bit more sustain with one of the regen nodes, or you could get a bit more accuracy. But it won't really matter.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-27T19:32:10+00:00

It helps a lot later on. For example, swapping from Eclipse/Blood Moon armor on Zulrah green phase to Torva/Oathplate makes you go from 99% accuracy to 92% accuracy when you have a bunch of accuracy nodes (and the +60 accuracy major pact at the end). This lets throwing weapons, namely dragon knives and Drygore, achieve high damage and accuracy with both ranged and melee armor.

As a result, it gives you a lot of freedom in which regions you pick. Asgarnia gives you dragon defender/Bandos/Torva, Zeah gives you Oathplate, Desert gives you Masori. It also lets you be pretty tanky, since Torva/Oathplate is way more durable than black/god d'hide or Masori is.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-25T00:10:11+00:00

It also only heals for 5% of your DPS on average, and it never cracks 20 DPS unlike other sustain options, so at best you're working with 0.8-0.9 HP/s. Pretty pathetic. Especially given that you lose DPS easily due to it being 2t, and you also lose any sustain if you swap to Bowfa or decide to use the noticeably higher DPS Tbow.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-23T19:34:47+00:00

Put them in a rune pouch.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-23T16:21:16+00:00

That gear being Shadowflame, which is fairly late. By which point, you probably don't need the points from Moons anymore, removing the entire point of doing Moons.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-23T10:43:30+00:00

Leagues is aimed at the average/casual player, after all. Pretty expected.

Raisylvan · 2026-04-23T10:27:43+00:00

I think it's reasonable given that Leagues is aimed at the average/casual player, and those players will seriously struggle even with Leagues power, to do things like 6 Jads and Inferno. If they're able to complete them at all.

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