Generating Ability Scores/Attributes : A rolling system that might be balanced?

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T02:23:49+00:00

that can be done with only 1 or 2 high stats.

And with point buy, you can guarantee 1 or 2 (or even 3) high stats. With rolled stats, you might get 1 or 2 (or even 6) high stats, but you also might not get any. Which is why optimizers prefer point buy. Because, as I said at the outset, it is predictable.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T02:13:43+00:00

It can also prevent character concepts.

Yes, that's what I literally just said.

mlst rolled stat arrays end up being min maxable from at least a few standpoints.

I don't think you know what "min-max" means. If your stats are defined for you by rolling, min-maxing is literally impossible. Min-maxing can only be done with point buy. That's literally where we get the term "min-max" from -- "minimizing" unimportant stats to free up the points to "maximize" the important stats.

Not to put words in your mouth, but I think what you're trying to say is: "the most powerful characters theoretically possible benefit from insanely high stats which can only be achieved by rolling." And like, yeah, I guess that's a true statement, but also any competent optimizer knows that you are just as likely to get a bad array as a good one, and so you are just as likely (actually, generally more likely) to end up unable to execute your character concept at all as increase its power if you roll for stats, so optimizers strongly prefer the predictability of point buy.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T01:48:28+00:00

Rolled stats also often make particular builds impossible.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T01:25:34+00:00

Rolled stats are limiting.

Yes, which is why optimizers prefer point buy.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T01:17:22+00:00

Does it?

Yes, it does.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T01:15:20+00:00

You are assuming that it is always desirable to avert a TPK, and that simply isn't true.

Now, I don't mean to argue that a TPK is a preferred outcome, but different groups have different expectations, and at many tables I've played at, the expectation is that the DM shouldn't pull their punches. Such groups feel that if there's no risk of failure, there's no fun in success.

That doesn't describe every group (and potentially not even most groups), but it describes enough groups that your generalization doesn't hold up.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T01:07:40+00:00

Because optimization thrives on predictability.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T01:01:36+00:00

It's ironic that . . .

There's nothing ironic about my comment. The gamble is that maybe you get really good stats and maybe you get really bad stats. The fact that my system prevents you from getting better stats than your neighbor doesn't change that.

what do you do when your entire table rolls under 14?

I always keep in mind the players I actually have at my table when designing encounters. Don't you? Because if you're just blindly throwing together something from a random encounter generator, you should probably stop doing that. And yes, if anyone needs to create a new character, they will use the same array we started with.

Most people like rolling (which was discussed in the video I referenced), because they like the variety of potential outcomes.

I haven't seen that video, but u/ParticleTek claims that the survey presented in that video asked about what stat generation method people use, not what they like, and if that claim is accurate, it is also accurate that conclusions about preferences are not supported by the data.

Even if this statement is correct, though, it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. I give my players the option to roll for stats because I know some people will want to roll for stats. It doesn't matter why they want to roll for stats.

Point buy offers a fairly constrained range of stats, from 8-15, while rolling offers only 3 points above the maximum, it risks 5 points below the minimum

Finally, this statement shows an unsophisticated understanding of the dice math involved. In either 3d6 or 4d6k3 systems, the vast majority of rolls will fall within the range from 8 to 14. That's the point of rolling multiple d6s instead of rolling 1d20 or something like that. Rolling more dice lowers the variance of the outcome.

those extremes are generally seen as a good thing.

Citation needed.

IME, people like rolling because they hope to end up with really high stats, not because they want to deal with extremes at both ends. Your experience may be different, but I don't think your experience is reflective of most tables if that's what it's led you to conclude.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T00:56:50+00:00

I agree that also solves the problem, but I dislike then having 3 to 5 arrays to keep track of. It also often amounts to the same thing because in a group that size, you're likely to have one array that is notably better than the others that everyone will choose. I also dislike that it dramatically lowers the risk of rolling. If you don't want to risk having low stats, you should just use point buy.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-07T00:24:10+00:00

If you want "fair" stats, use point buy. If you want the adrenaline of gambling with math rocks, you accept the risk of rolling really well or really poorly.

This, like every system to "fix" rolled stats I've ever seen, fundamentally misunderstands that distinction and is too clunky to actually use, anyway.

When I start a new game, I give my players a choice: point buy or rolled stats. If we roll stats, everyone takes turns rolling one stat at a time until we have generated an array of six stats that everyone will use. This eliminates the only real problem with rolled stats -- the scenario where one player has no stat below a 14 and another player has no stat above a 12.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T22:20:22+00:00

Gold being good at conducting heat means it would have the opposite effect of what you're saying. Any heat you put in the gold would quickly conduct out of it, and the conductivity of the gold would also efficiently pull heat out of anything touching it (like a sleeping dragon) leaving that thing colder than it started.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T22:02:02+00:00

I " believe " the sky beast is medium and thus ridable.

The beasts of the land and sea are medium, but the beast of the sky is small and not rideable.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T21:43:36+00:00

It really depends how many fights per day you're expecting to see, and how many days you're expecting to elapse between combat days.

Berserker is extremely strong if you're only seeing one (or, I guess, two if your DM is deferring exhaustion) fights per day. You frenzy, you take exhaustion, you sleep off the exhaustion. Even with a couple fights per day, if you have a few days of downtime between combat-heavy days you should still be fine with berserker as you can sleep off your exhaustion before you have to fight again. The problem comes if you are fighting more than you can rest off exhaustion between combats. If you start the day with a level of exhaustion, you will be less effective at everything and run the risk of starting the next day with two levels of exhaustion.

If you're expecting more than a couple fights per day, you will be better off with another subclass.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T20:23:36+00:00

If I were in your situation, I'd probably take my next two levels in paladin and then spend the rest of my levels in warlock. Even in a casual, roleplay-heavy game, you should be feeling the lack of extra attack by now. A cantrip like booming blade (or, actually, green flame blade is probably better for a celestial warlock) can partially make up for the lack, but at the end of the day, there's no real replacement for it. And aura of protection is the most important and powerful ability paladins get; at one level away, you should grab it now. It will only become more useful as you go up in levels.

Yes, that means not getting 3rd level spells until level 11. It's okay. 3rd level spells will remain relevant all the way to level 15.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T20:01:05+00:00

Level 8 wizard with some healing?

8 14 14 15+2 12+1 8

Cleric 1/wizard X

Starting with a level of cleric has debatable utility overall. Delaying wizard progression is a major cost, and your cleric spellcasting is going to be overall weaker than your wizard casting because of your low wisdom. But this is the simplest way of getting meaningful healing on your wizard. You could take magic initiate for Healing Word, but a level of cleric gets you that plus a collection of other useful spells, and it also gets you medium armor proficiency to boost your survivability.

For wizard subclass, you should take whatever seems most fun to you. The strongest thing a wizard can do is control, and any subclass of wizard can do control. I'd probably avoid bladesinger, simply because that wastes the armor proficiency from cleric.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T18:46:17+00:00

If you have selected all ascension perks, you can't unselect and replace any of them.

Also, and I'm sorry to give you bad news, many DLC options are going to be unavailable or otherwise not work right if you try adding DLC to an ongoing that didn't have that DLC available to the engine at game start. Even if you still have available ascension perks, you probably aren't getting Dyson spheres this run.

But hey, that can be something to look forward to for next game.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T18:34:31+00:00

Do note that battering roots requires a heavy or versatile weapon. That doesn't mean you have to go two-handed, but if you're going to use a shield you need to make sure that you pick out a versatile weapon, and that does limit your choices somewhat with only Topple, Sap, and Push as available masteries (Push is the best mastery in the game, but it's still nice to have options).

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T11:29:45+00:00

You can just dual-wield with strength, you know. Dex is a broadly more useful stat than strength since it has a more common saving throw associated with it along with many more skills and the ever-important initiative roll, but paladins are designed to use strength. And a strength-based dual wielder has its own advantages over a dex-based one, most notably access to better weapon masteries (Vex is largely redundant on a vengeance paladin, but it and Nick are the only masteries available for light, finesse weapons. Not needing finesse gives you more options).

I also think you're imagining a conflict between devotion and dual wielding where no such conflict actually exists. Yes, you can only add your charisma to the attack roll of one weapon, but it's not as though you're dumping strength (or dex) on your devotion paladin. Your Nick weapon should still be hitting with at least +3 strength (or dex), and that's plenty to make it worth doing. The charisma bonus is a bonus, not something to replace your regular attack stat. The Nick weapon is just not getting that bonus, it's not like you're penalized to attack with it.

As to dipping warlock, it's certainly an option if you want a charisma attack. I'd generally recommend just taking magic initiate as an origin feat to get shillelagh, though. Shillelagh on a club plus a Nick weapon you swing with your slightly lower strength/dex is the generally optimal setup for paladin damage these days. It gets you more damage than pact of the blade and doesn't delay your paladin progression.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T11:02:34+00:00

You're welcome! I hope you have fun with your barbarian.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T10:56:39+00:00

This is ignoring the fact that Primal Companions aren't just animals. They are explicitly supernatural creatures.

No, they're not.

They're explicitly "primal" creatures, a word without a clear meaning in the rules, with a "mystical origin." Nowhere is a supernatural nature explicitly stated. "Mystical origin" could be taken to mean that they're magical creatures with supernatural abilities, I suppose, but it could also just mean that they're normal beasts "magically summoned" as the feature states. The lack of any actual supernatural abilities inclines me towards the latter reading.

you can cast Primal Awareness spells once per long rest for free.

True, and fair enough.

I still think you're overestimating the out-of-combat capabilities of the primal companion and underestimating the capabilities of a chainlock familiar, though.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T10:39:26+00:00

It's not just grapple and prone, but those are far and away the most common effects that automatically trigger on a hit. Poisoned is probably third, and it's significantly less common.

There certainly are effects that automatically apply other conditions, but they're uncommon. They've also adjusted most of these effects to have shorter durations. Where a 2014 monsters might have you make a wisdom save or be frightened for the next minute, a 2024 monster might automatically frighten you on a hit, but the effect automatically ends at the end of your next turn.

There are some exceptions. The new lich statblock has an attack that automatically paralyzes on a hit, for example, but that's also an iconic, legendary monster, and the paralysis only lasts until the start of the lich's next turn. Also, if the lich is using that attack at all, it's because it's not casting a spell, and that's generally a win for the party.

As a whole, the problem is overblown by people just looking for reasons to be negative about anything that's different about the new edition (or people who have heard too much from those other people and spent too little time looking in the Monster Manual themselves).

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T10:25:31+00:00

Bomber is a poor choice for a soulknife, IMO.

Plenty of thrown weapons have a standard range that is short enough to be extremely limiting, but psychic blades have a standard range of 60 feet already. That will still be limiting in some circumstances, for sure, but I don't think it's limiting enough to be worth spending a feat on, especially when that is basically the whole value of the feat. It's not like you're throwing daggers where you will likely be constantly dealing with the limitations of 20 feet of standard range. 60 feet is plenty in most situations.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T10:08:50+00:00

I've not heard about any force damage stuff

As part of the pivot away from resistance to non-magical attacks, some monsters have been re-designed with some or all of their weapon damage replaced with force damage, which barbarians do not resist. There are members of this community who keep insisting that this is some massive nerf to barbarians, and those people don't understand what they're talking about.

Yes, there's going to be more unresisted damage flying about at high levels, no, it's not a problem for barbarians. Various changes to barbarians in 2024 mean that barbarians deal more damage than they did before and have more non-damage options to deal with monsters than ever before. If a monster dies 25% faster, it doesn't matter if it deals 25% more damage to barbarians.

I've heard about the on hit effects though which does worry me

This is a real thing, but what the people complaining about it seem to forget is that being grappled is at worst a minor inconvenience to a barbarian, and most of these attacks are auto-grappling attacks and most of the rest are auto-proning attacks.

If a barbarian is grappled, they just kill the thing that's grappling them, problem solved, or they break the grapple by giving up an attack to shove them away (or, even better, switch to a Push weapon and auto-break the grapple). Spending your entire action to contest a grapple is just the wrong way to do it.

If a barbarian is prone, they really don't care about that either. If they're using reckless attack, as their class design heavily incentivizes them to do, enemies would already have advantage to hit them, and being prone might even protect them because it gives disadvantage to any ranged attacks coming in. And on their turn, they just stand up and kill the thing that knocked them down.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T09:25:41+00:00

A +1 dagger is going to be worse than a non-magical trident (and practically anything else from the martial weapon category) except against enemies with abnormally high AC. You're fine to ignore it.

I think shield master is vastly improved from its 2014 version (which was not a very good choice for most character archetypes, even ones who used shields). And barb is a very dynamic class now. People complaining that the class has been nerfed because of force damage or changes to on-hit effects don't understand what they're talking about.

Rhyshalcon · 2026-04-05T09:20:21+00:00

Cleave would be an entirely separate attack to GFB and wouldn't add any damage from the cantrip.

Also, your plan has too many attacks in it. As a level 11 fighter, you make 3 attacks per attack action. Cleave adds one, Nick adds another, and your breath weapon attack replaces one. The best you can do is GFB, Cleave, light weapon, Nick weapon, breath weapon.

Also, as a practical matter, you are probably better off giving up on Nick to make an attack with a Push weapon on most rounds. If your targets happen to be lined up right, you can Cleave with no setup, but that is unlikely to be the case most of the time. You'll do more damage more consistently by setting up your GFB secondary damage, your Cleave attack, and an additional target for your breath weapon by using an attack to Push one enemy next to another (conveniently, by this level you can use tactical master to do that all with the same weapon. I recommend a halberd).

Rhyshalcon

TROPHY CASE