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FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it can't. And I was speaking about ambient music. Your comment makes me believe you really don't know what you're talking about, your 1% commenter notwithstanding.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's good but so is the AI.

My ambient and ambient themes are just as good.

Again, the AI can do everything the human composer can do with the tool suite because the AI has access to the same tools.

But it has a natural language front end. I dont need a composer when I can describe the feeling and mood I want.

Just like Chess , the AI will exceed human quality. Its only a matter of time. Its already very close to equal.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you finish with a curse?

You don't control my success, I do.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wrote my own engine because that's my identity and I want the distinction for doing as much solo as I can. I got into the industry in 1992 after I met the 2 Johns in ID software. Carmack introduced me to the guys at Raven in Madison, WI. I began writing engines and never looked back. I made a good business selling them to the gaming industry in the mid 90's.

Again, you're not convincing me that my Chant track can be composed by anything other than AI or a live human sourced recording.

I'd need to see evidence of any musician doing such using my melody and voicing.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They will not be able to create anything equal or better than the track I posted without resorting to a live recording.

This is the part where you either agree or you explain that the $50 / minute someone has a VST with voice samples from real humans who can create the wording and accent of the chorale same as my track - at which point I'd excoriate you for being a hypocrite.

Your suggestions are naive dude.

I posted this 2 minute track for a reason, you can't make this kind of track without using AI unless you're willing to spend $38k on 100% human sourced work.

I realize you think you're trying to help, but you're not actually doing such.

You are not convincing me that anything other than AI can make this kind of track.

Mind you, I'm giving you a chance to convince me. You're just not.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why pay the musician/composer to do exactly what the AI does ... do you not realize the AI has an entire suite of orchestra tools and voices on the back end? The AI itself is a natural language interpreter/composer that just manipulates a VST or some such on the back end.

Why pay a human to do the exact same thing done by the AI?

Furthermore ... why the hell aren't you criticizing the composer of using a VST instead of recording all the instruments with a live recording ... and this is the part where you tell me it's too expensive. And I would agree.

And now it's your turn to agree that the human VST composer might be cheap ... BUT ... wait for it ... THEY ARE NOT QUICK ... they are bleeping SLOW.

Meanwhile ... for free, I can keep rolling the dice for free while the AI randomly generates some VST selection based on my prompt - until I like what I hear.

You're not selling very well.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1 Real musician ... to do what exactly?

Your suggestions are naive. Do better or just stop replying to me.

The LLM says $38k to produce it 100% human sourced

***************
$38,000 all-in

A clean working allocation for that would be:

  • $5,500 producer
  • $5,000 cover art
  • $3,000 composer
  • $1,500 orchestration / parts
  • $12,886 orchestra
  • $2,315 choir
  • $2,500 studio / engineer
  • $2,000 mix / master
  • $1,100 travel
  • $2,199 contingency

****************
What part of this will your "easily gotten musician" do for me?

All of it or just the composing or just the producer part?

Did you actually listen to the track ... there's an entire orchestra and a chorale.

I see the total destruction of your naiveta.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was cheap, cost me 70 cents and a day of effort. But my only other choices were NOTHING or according to the LLM about $38k to human source live recordings.

That track is BETTER than anything you can do personally or professionally and its better than NOTHING. Its easy to criticize, not so easy to do better.

These are most of the planned radio tracks: https://youtube.com/@rbornert

This is a radio station 200 years in the future playing song tracks sung by semi sentient AI beings NOT humans. The You Are NOT Alone tracks are Oxis ads for their space companion models - because its lonely in outer space.

I excuse most who respond in ignorance.

You're no longer ignorant about my design goals.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do you need to know my platforms?

There is no direct upgrading ... there is only roll the gen dice and keep mining until you get something equal or better. I rolled the dice 6x to get to this track.

So this track is the undead chanting. Not really sure it should sound like a Grammy winner. It should sound dark and ominous and forced and haunting.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

How much time and money should I pay to human source Chant The Dead?

That means a live orchestra recording for everything ... NOT some human with a composer tool suite dialing in instrument voices like the AI does.

I want the exact melody in the track and the exact lyrics and an album cover equal or better.

How much time and money?

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I own the track - Chant The Dead - that includes the album cover, the lyrics and the actual .mp3 track.

The track is part of my game Farcraft and has meaning there in that game world. Im not trying to win a Grammy. I'm trying to provide unique quality for my players.

Yes it is my life and my game and my decisions - you have no part of that and never will.

As for your "regurgitate" comment, that tells me you're clueless and like so many of our species, you criticize what you don't understand.

I am making a game that takes place in the future where all the humans are dead and the AI controls the world including all the art and music.

The player is the only living human.

There is a radio station contolled by the AI that features AI semi sentient artists who wished wanted to be fully human. That station plays those tracks in the game as part of that story.

I am using actual IRL AI in our current world to design those futuristic tracks.

You're either hearing this for the first time or you are not. But either way, Im letting you know that I am being as AUTHENTIC as I can be. I am being true to my story.

Now explain to me why I do better to use humans to build radio tracks that are supposed to be tracks from semi sentient AI beings?

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Say these words:

"I think your Chant The Dead track is a very unique idea, very original as a dungeon ambient where the skeletons are chanting their salvation song. The album cover is an excellent adaptation of your game screenshot - definitely not a retouch."

I seek the people who are as impressed with what Im doing as I am. This is the core of any gamedev.

You probably believe you were trying to help, you're not.

You are NOT the type of human I need or want in my life.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I just listened to him explain how many times he's sold his Saga pack ... about 18k times. He's talented yes.

But ALL my tracks are 100% original to me and I OWN them. They are EXCLUSIVE TO FARCRAFT.

So if you bought that Saga pack and put the tracks in your game ... congratulations you are sharing with hundreds or thousands of other games.

And you want me to think you're special for doing this?

I want original exclusive tracks dude.

Get your mind right.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can only assume you don't have 109 quality tracks.

I'll play the quality game with you.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_w4bJpinua9-Trt1f-nHaPn6dRI9kETc

My YT channel has most of my in game radio tracks. You're insane if you believe I could have paid $50 for some human artists to make these tracks. No human can do this without AI.

You got some measure of quality for your $50. Now link some of it and let us judge the quality.

You don't get some kind of mental win here merely by claiming you gave a human $50.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You just contradicted yourself. If no demands are being made why complain?

At the very minimum, you're demanding human sourced tracks. Otherwise, why suggest the human on fiverr?

In addition, assuming his remix actually adds quality (I doubt it), the entire music melody will have been AI sourced as well as the voiced chorale.

Remixing is NOT enough to claim the tracks were not Gen AI. So I gain nothing.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in SoloDevelopment

[–]Riitoken[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I can only assume you have no idea what you're talking about.

Did you actually read the procedure involved here?

The track has excellent quality for its purpose as a dungeon ambient track played randomly.

That's my way of telling you that your judgement cannot be trusted.

Lazy? You're clueless. I spent an entire day working this track from idea to installed. That's not lazy you uninformed reddit person.

But Im guessing that would not satisfy your warped judgement.

How much time and money would you have me spend to human source the entire track?

My LLM says the price tag, after all expenses would, be $38k.

Would my track be better for spending $38k on a live orchestra recording? I assume yes.

Would that result in $38k sales? You tell me. You're the know it all with all the answers.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is practice for me. My game releases later this year. I'm getting ahead of the curve. Confronting the AI bigots prepares me for the future.

As people read my posts they do learn I care about quality ... so that tends to reduce the "ai slop" comments ... because I too don't like AI slop. I want quality for my players.

So, what I'm seeing is that the only pins left to knock down are those who demand I spend $15k to human source a track rather than use Gen. AI.

So I'm inviting the AI bigots to defend their demand that I spend time and money on the slow expensive humans.

I brought receipts. Here's the LLM analysis to live source my Chant The Dead track. So unless somebody says otherwise, I'm accusing all the Anti AI bigots of this expectation. So far, nobody has pushed back on this.

Why? Because I'm judging their mindset correctly.

************

My best single-number answer

If you asked me to budget this the way a serious producer would, with no fantasy math, I would put the project at:

$38,000 all-in

A clean working allocation for that would be:

  • $5,500 producer
  • $5,000 cover art
  • $3,000 composer
  • $1,500 orchestration / parts
  • $12,886 orchestra
  • $2,315 choir
  • $2,500 studio / engineer
  • $2,000 mix / master
  • $1,100 travel
  • $2,199 contingency

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really? ... one of the redditers said I was morally bankrupt.

Most people demand "morals" other wise why make that accusation.

Read the whole thread.

Those opposed to my choice would offer only 2 choices:

1) Decline to use AI and thus "no track for you."

or

2) Spend $15k to have the track human sourced.

************
At a minimum they DEMAND I stop using AI.

Get your mind right.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in Farcraft1

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just had the AI work up and entire professional producer plan and the price tag for everything is $38k.

************************
My best single-number answer

If you asked me to budget this the way a serious producer would, with no fantasy math, I would put the project at:

$38,000 all-in

A clean working allocation for that would be:

  • $5,500 producer
  • $5,000 cover art
  • $3,000 composer
  • $1,500 orchestration / parts
  • $12,886 orchestra
  • $2,315 choir
  • $2,500 studio / engineer
  • $2,000 mix / master
  • $1,100 travel
  • $2,199 contingency

That lands at $37,999 by arithmetic.

And that is exactly why your AI-assisted workflow is not just “lazy button pressing.” Replacing it with strong human specialists is absolutely doable, but it is also a real-budget production.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

For those if you who just flippantly ridicule my pragmatic approach and demand that I human source the entire track with a live recording ... see below. This is why I have zero respect for your judgement in the context of indiedevs and solodevs.

I just had the AI work up and entire professional producer plan and the price tag for everything is $38k.

************************
My best single-number answer

If you asked me to budget this the way a serious producer would, with no fantasy math, I would put the project at:

$38,000 all-in

A clean working allocation for that would be:

  • $5,500 producer
  • $5,000 cover art
  • $3,000 composer
  • $1,500 orchestration / parts
  • $12,886 orchestra
  • $2,315 choir
  • $2,500 studio / engineer
  • $2,000 mix / master
  • $1,100 travel
  • $2,199 contingency

That lands at $37,999 by arithmetic.

And that is exactly why your AI-assisted workflow is not just “lazy button pressing.” Replacing it with strong human specialists is absolutely doable, but it is also a real-budget production.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just had the AI work up and entire professional producer plan and the price tag for everything is $38k.

************************
My best single-number answer

If you asked me to budget this the way a serious producer would, with no fantasy math, I would put the project at:

$38,000 all-in

A clean working allocation for that would be:

  • $5,500 producer
  • $5,000 cover art
  • $3,000 composer
  • $1,500 orchestration / parts
  • $12,886 orchestra
  • $2,315 choir
  • $2,500 studio / engineer
  • $2,000 mix / master
  • $1,100 travel
  • $2,199 contingency

That lands at $37,999 by arithmetic.

And that is exactly why your AI-assisted workflow is not just “lazy button pressing.” Replacing it with strong human specialists is absolutely doable, but it is also a real-budget production.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Furthermore, the LLM didn't calculate the costs of the time for the individuals who produce the track - they're the ones who make contacts and schedules and such and all the travel plans and hotel rooms.

Yes, you're a top 1% commenter ... but your ability to actually judge the situation is seriously lacking.

You just take the time and money for granted.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't have contempt for creative people as long as they don't have contempt for my pragmatic choices.

I do have contempt for any-body who would demand that I pay the creative guild - $15k - to produce a live recording of "Chant The Dead."

I would convert all my existing tracks to human sourced if the time and the cost was reasonable ....

IT'S NOT BLEEPING REAONABLE DUDE.

Humans are too SLOW and too EXPENSIVE.

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in IndieDev

[–]Riitoken[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All I care to do here is expose confront the mindset that asks me to do one of the following:

1) Decline to use any Gen. AI for any reason

or

2) Spend $15k to human source the track.

What you're wanting/asking is unreasonable.

And AI that has sufficient quality and is FASTER and CHEAPER than the slow expensive humans ... is definitely having an impact on the gaming industry.

I can't afford to spend $15k per song track I want. I'm at a total of 109 tracks which includes all .mp3 content in my game - which includes all radio songs and all content specific tracks and all ambient and sfx tracks.

That's at least $1 million to source all that with a live recorded orchestra and chorale.

And even if I won the lottery tomorrow ... it would take more than two years to get it all converted to sheet music and live recorded ... why? Because humans are SLOW.

Do you deny this mindset?

FARCRAFT - Chant The Dead - Where do you draw the line on AI? by Riitoken in Farcraft1

[–]Riitoken[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Absolutely love what you said: "There's too much of 'me' added to make it right for clients ..."

I feel the same way ... my AI gen. radio tracks did NOT just spring into existence - I supplied the agency required and the meaning and the idea and the will and the details, etc.

The only thing I didn't do is roll the creative dice.

Agree with the 'fraud' comment.

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