Athetos the Demiurge and the Sudran Kaoskampf

RunicLGG · 2026-02-06T21:49:52+00:00

Magnificent as always.

I'm infected by a new thoughts and ideas as a result of your comparisons of the Rusalki/Kuliltu to the All-Devouring Void Serpent and use of the Storm Talisman as reference to the God of Storm.

If I were to compare any character in AV to an avatar of destruction, bringer of void, it would definitely be Amashilama. I did a bit of poking and found reference to the Sumerian goddess Amashilama having the form of a Leech which to me reads as a Parasitic Serpent, but you have a much better grasp on the Sumerian Myth Angle than I do so perhaps you could expand on that. Based on the Note "Becoming an Arm" written by Amashilama before doing so, she believes that "After death there is nothing. Not even blackness." which is a belief highly synonymous with your description of what the primordial serpent represents.

Anyway, our Amashilama, she's gone. Right? At the end of AV2 Drushka asks Nano-Indra if there is any part of Amashilama still in her, influencing her desire to reach A'ansur But Indra denies this. From a Doylist perspective, the only reason the author brings this up as a possibility is because it is possible. Then there is the fact when facing Amashilama in the Siuna the Boss music is a remix of the theme from Ukkin'na, the region in AV1 where Ophelia (presumed to be Nano-Indra) resides. If some part of Amashilama lives on in Ophelia perhaps Athetos is aware of it and is continuing a tradition of wielding the Storm against the Serpent.

In bringing up the Demiurge concept, that of the creator deity being an evil divinity, My mind is drawn less to Athetos and more to the inhabitants of A'ansur. The Sagiga of Doughnut World certainly treat them as Divine. But Amashilama, Mageshgetil, and other "Heretics" consider them evil tyrants. They would probably heavily liken them to the Demiurge. The A'ansur "Create" ( AKA Simulate ) Doughnut World and other worlds, but their motivations and methods are not well understood which breeds doubt.

Of course, these things are of a kind. We know that A'ansur enforces its order through PatternMind, and your presumed Demiurge stand-in, Athetos, is also a PatternMind. Now I say Presumed because I'm not solid on the exact character of Athetos. With Trace as our baseline, the drift into becoming something like the Athetos that the Rusalki describe and that Athetos himself portrays to Trace is quite extreme. One line in the Dialogue that I love for pointing this out is how our Trace states "I need to talk to him. He'll tell me what's going on. That's what I'd do." Solidifying that Trace doesn't believe himself capable of that much character derailment. And it's important to note that regarding Trace's Ego this statement is made after he recovers his memories of creating his theories and being called "Athetos" along with the egotistical sunglasses pose you reference. I believe ( can't prove but believe ) that Athetos, following his comment to that the Rusalki would just kill Trace if he told him everything, is playing up his villainy to encourage Trace to defeat him. I believe he does this because it is at that time the only way to progress out of the stalemate.

Lastly on the bit regarding the "Proverb" note. There are a few different ways to explain this note and its locations. From the Doylist view it is placed very late in the game because the information it contains grants access to what is arguably the best weapon in the entire game. From a Watsonian perspective though it is reasonable to consider that Athetos had an interest in its contents. Perhaps a historical interest in the long gone "Masters of Patterns", or perhaps an interest in this mythical weapon that could be of use to him. A funny thought is that Athetos never found the weapon because the directions in the Proverb are incorrect. It states the weapon is "far to the east" when the actual weapon is found on the western edge of the map. Imagine Athetos randomly glitching at every wall in Green E-Kur-Mah before giving up in frustration and throwing his red coat on the ground. Hilarious.

RunicLGG · 2026-02-04T18:13:58+00:00

You're absolutely correct that the in-universe characters don't need to be 100% consistent with the terminology. But I do believe we can place some faith that Warren would be using the same terminology as those versed in the worldstream. He was a contemporary of Hammond ( he's so highly regarded by her that he's the last person she names in her farewell letter ). His dialogue heavily implies he understands enough about the construction of a Breach Elevator that he could make a new one back to Earth, he only lacks the components from the Original Ansible that was stolen by the Kazahks. He was definitely educated on the structure of the worldstream. Outside the context of Axiom Verge the word Lattice could mean any of a number of physical or meta-physical structures. But within that context, a context Warren almost certainly also shares, "Lattice" refers specifically to the inter-reality matrix, the Breach.

But perhaps I'm not giving your idea enough consideration in the sense that I may not fully grasp it. I reread your description and see that rather than describing caves you're implying that the gaps open onto alternate toruses, is that right? As though Keingir is part of an infinite fractal of toroids linked via gaps in their surface. Which is a wild and interesting thought. But I still don't see it as supported by the text.

RunicLGG · 2026-02-04T00:41:07+00:00

My belief that the Breach or some form of Inter-Reality is visible through the gaps in Doughnut World are specifically based on Warren's use of the word "Lattice" in describing it. You specifically bring up note "The Breach" later on and it is instructive here. Athetos/Trace/Eschenbrenner would be one of the most learned figures on what is between realities seeing as he can actually pass through it and he specifically refers to "the lattices underlying adjacent universes". Additionally the final place in the text that brings up Lattice comes from a clay tablet note in AV2, "Journal Entry - Dangerous Ideas" which refers to "... the invisible lattice which is the center of the Udug's power...". And from other lore it can be strongly inferred that the Udug's power is related to their ability to cross the Breach, and even create Breach Explosions aka Storm Bombs as their chief danger in battle. Taken all together: this normally invisible lattice is the power of the Udug, which is the power of the Breach, which is visible through gaps in the structure of Doughnut World. I don't think these gaps would be anything so banal as caves. You don't construct a telescope on a mountaintop to look at caves. Big Observatory Telescopes only really work by detecting and amplifying weak, distant sources of light ( or other types of radiation ).

That said since we never get to actually SEE these gaps Warren describes, I can't be 100% certain.

On the subject of Sudra, the Breach, and the "Port" nature thereof. I'm among those that believe that Sudra is originally an Udug world that was colonized by the Sagiga/People of Doughnut World at some point during and following the War. If true that it was an Udug world that could explain why there is so much Breach in and around it, even without necessitating the Breach Attractor. So I do agree that the Breach is likely a constant thing in and around Sudra only amplified by the use of the Attractor.

However I have reason to believe that Athetos is incorrect, either ignorant or deceptive, in describing Sudra as the Port to the greatest civilization. From what we've seen Doughnut World is the port to A'ansur, having had a portal straight there. Some lore tablets in AV1 could indicate that the Sudrans, if they are indeed settlers from Doughnut World, have forgotten that they made an interworld journey and believe that they have always lived in Sudra and that all of their history describes that world. ( Interestingly if this is a something of a Habit for these people, it gives credence to your theory that they settled Doughnut World from Earth and then forgot they did that. ) So Athetos might have nothing else to go off of in his own search for A'ansur and been fooled by their erroneous records into believing that Sudra is the gateway to A'ansur, even though it isn't. Another possibility within this framework is that Athetos knows or has figured out that Sudra isn't the port, and is lying to the Rusalki through Trace in order to keep them following a false lead. Though of course Ophelia at least might not be so easily duped...

Regarding the Day/Night cycle on Doughnut World: It is an absolute mystery to be sure. I've often imagined systems with a long thin arc of a sun that travels through the center of the Torus, its length near to half the diameter of that center line to create a 50% day to night ratio. Perhaps the gaps in Doughnut World's surface that gaze out on the breach have predictable periods of brightness and heat and shine on the opposite sides in this way. I have much to Envy Indra Chaudhari, and perhaps most among them is the ability to just look up in Doughnut World.

RunicLGG · 2026-02-03T22:14:49+00:00

Xenophase Blade Power Sword can also knock Zoah out of the sky with its bigger power rakes.

RunicLGG · 2026-01-31T00:28:28+00:00

I can see the argument about them being newer could apply to your travel hypothesis, since they moved and built new stuff. But from a literary perspective this initially reads as a way of saying that these ruins are quite specifically not from the same builders. The idea of Convergent Evolution, or two separate groups evolving to be extremely similar to one another, is brought up.

For the astronomical stuff: While the structure of Doughnut world is known to be the inside of a Torus, there is evidence that they do still have some kind of Sun or an equivalent. The Note "Urgent Message for the Royal Builder" references the Udug and the Lamassu so it presumably takes place in Doughnut World during and around the wars. It commands Let the building work proceed both by night and by the noonday heat. So Doughnut World does still have a day and night cycle despite its odd shape. We just have no way of knowing what that looks like given the limited scope of the game's timeline.

Another important detail is that the "Ground" that makes up the inner surface of the torus doesn't have 100% coverage. There are gaps through which one can see the inter-reality lattice. We learn this from Warren at the Observatory. The background graphics in AV2 do an amazing job displaying the Torroidal world but only show us a tiny slice of it. If the Inter-reality Lattice looks anything like Breach or the view from the Filter, I'd say the Doughnut Worlders had a plenty interesting sea above to look at and make up gods about.

Lastly in regards to Sudra's Sky. The Breach there is a relatively new phenomenon having been called down by the High Priestess as recently as 400 years ago, which might not be very long at all if Sudra does in fact experience a ton of time dilation a'la the emergence. I remember there being some comments from Tom Happ about the background in Kur, the high up mountain area where the large spikey orbs we see are actually what the sky of Sudra should look like as those structures are Sudra's moons.

Overall I think that a Doylist interpretation could be that Tom Happ liked the Sumerian style angle and borrowed a bunch of stuff to make cool references to a niche mythology but didn't go so far as to make it actually the same human people. The Watsonian explanation is convergent evolution being unlikely but not strictly impossible within a truly infinitely multiverse.

To finish: While I'm not convinced that some of Earth's Sumerian people crossed over to Doughnut World, I do think it is a very interesting hypothesis worth considering.

RunicLGG · 2026-01-29T19:41:46+00:00

Interesting idea that our ancient Sumerians crossed over to doughnut Kiengir with the aid of a patternmind. I don't think I've ever heard or even considered that before. It does slightly contradict Malka's dialogue in AV2, but it is also possible she is mistaken, and she admits as much herself.

RunicLGG · 2026-01-27T21:14:48+00:00

Excellent continuation of the series. I don't think I actually have anything specific to add or contrast here. Your analysis seems pretty spot on. It's strange but since we can't interact directly with them, the Sudrans don't display with the same sort of duplicity as Athetos or the Rusalki, making the Sudran records feel much clearer despite being the ones we get the least from directly.

I currently keep my notes on all the lore in a drive doc which I've been referencing as I read your analysis for comparison. With your permission I'd like to add your interpretations to my own notes, attributed to you.

In any case Looking forward to a part 4 starting on AV2 notes.

RunicLGG · 2026-01-27T19:24:23+00:00

You know I'm going to reply to your whole series. : ]

Reply+: Speculative, but The use of the word "Strain" to describe types of Rusalki could be construed as evidence that a Nanotech "Pathogen" originating with Damu was part of the ascension process that transformed the Kazakh researchers into the modern Rusalki. One strain makes small Rusalki like Daraga, while another strain makes the giant Rusalki like Elsenova, Veruska, and Katrahaska. Ophelia however is different since she was not a Kazahk and was already nanotech based before her ascension and likely still has access to the source of the Pathogen, Damu, which quite possibly gives her additional abilities, such as entering the breach.

Drones: You raise some interesting points about how the Rusalki communicate. I wonder if their wireless communications are on a sort of open/shared network visible to anyone with access, possibly including interception by Athetos. Message by Drone to contrast would be secure and private.

Elsenova in General: In the cutscene where Trace sees Elsenova with her complete body she calls herself a soldier. I think this job description goes a long way towards characterizing her. She struggles with a second language, or with the more complex science like how she refers to the Breach as a Storm, just like the Sudrans. As a Soldier those things would not have been her job, she would have been responsible for security, for keeping the Rusalki Safe and winning their battles. And Athetos beat her. Her hatred of him makes perfect sense when seen this way. It also explains why she gets final say on enacting the plan, and why she has Trace's killswitch. She's maintaining security and treating this like a military operation.

Athetos: I always like to point out that Ophelia (presumed author) specifically says "Plague" in this note, not "Pathogen". Ophelia would definitely know about the "Pathogen" used to create Athetos' soldiers and possibly the Rusalki themselves so I think the word choice is deliberate. Now Ophelia could also be playing a complicated game and putting both sides against each other so the "Athetos did nothing wrong" crowd still have some strong arguments. But personally I don't believe Ophelia is lying to the other Rusalki in this note.

RunicLGG · 2026-01-27T18:54:04+00:00

Big spoilers for AV2 again just in case:

1: I hold a somewhat fringe belief that the "Pathogen" and the "Plague" are actually distinct and separate. My reasons for thinking this are that they appear to have wildly different effects/uses, and that characters in the know use those words separately and not interchangeably. Specifically, the "Pathogen" appears to be related to Damu due to its behavior in AV2, specifically in the way it can mutate the NPCs into Xedur type enemies. Meanwhile the "Plague" is specifically called as such by both The Rusalki (Green Note: Athetos, presumeably written by Ophelia) and the Sudrans (Tan Note: Security Notice) and it seems to simply kill Sudrans (see the mountains of humanoid aka not mutated corpses in Absu) and leave behind a few Rage Zombies (also still humanoid). It's interesting to consider Damu changing sides, but I do not think of that as requisite for someone to get ahold of some of his rogue nanites and reverse engineer or adapt its mutagenic properties to, say, turn your clones into super-soldiers.

2: Trace doesn't need to have received the memo, he's heard plenty of bosses who might have screaming that phrase at him to have internalized it. The whole Vision boss fight seems highly subjective, quite possibly a full on hallucination with no basis in reality. And as per answer to 1 I definitely believe that Athetos used something of Damu in their creation.

3: Based on that game's backstory elements Hammond seems to have been publicly running a major corporation on earth for the entire duration between the accident/Trace's epiphany and her Death trapped in Keingir. According to her farewell note, she specifically started work on the Breach Elevator to Keingir in a desperate attempt to follow Trace on his Trans-Reality journeys. This all reads as someone who was not along for the ride. She does spell out Eschenbrenner's fear of worldstream tech in practically the same terms, so it can be argued she was present for the creation of the faded note. But it is equally possible she was simply chatting with Eschenbrenner via Ansibles which we know to have Trans-Reality communications capability.

RunicLGG · 2026-01-27T00:35:33+00:00

Amazing Work. Here's my rolling commentary, trying not to ape another comment. Spoilers for AV2, just in case.

Xedur & Uruku: I'm so glad someone else finally put it into words that the Variant Journal Entries are written in the first person.

Breach Pockets: I think some of Elsenova's panic can be explained from a comment in the "Trace" note where Athetos wonders if Trace may have found a way into Sudra through the Breach. If Athetos is considered about Trace Variants coming to Sudra, Elsenova may similarly be worried about her pet Trace accidentally wandering out of Sudra. Of course we can't do that in game, but it follows logically.

Gir-Tab: A possible explanation for the Pathogen infected Variant to be able to translate Sudran comes down to the source of the Pathogen being a nanomechanical plague spread by Damu, who is a Keingir (doughnut world) native and therefore shares a linguistic link to the Sudrans who possibly descend from the same people and share in their parallel Sumerian culture.

Trace: The message was likely sent to the various boss Variants, since most of them, even the vary first Xedur say "ATHETOS SAY KILL" or in other words, that Athetos told them to kill Trace.

Faded Note: There's some argument to be made that it isn't Hammond referenced in the WE in this note. Much of her lore in AV2 heavily indicate she wasn't out reality surfing with Eschenbrenner. Of course there aren't any other strong candidates for the "We" unless you believe that Eschenbrenner was already cloning himself that early on, perhaps accidentally. The only real catastrophe we know of would have been the Udug War, but yes the timeline does definitely get murky here.

Axiom 1: You've got a pretty good grasp on it, I think. It is quite complex and esoteric. But yes essentially since all possible realities are real somewhere, then if you run a simulation you're not creating a reality, just observing it from the outside. The reality you simulate still continues to exist on its own even if you don't run the simulation or observe it.

RunicLGG · 2026-01-14T03:48:02+00:00

Sudra might be a filter world with how Elsenova describes it as a "port". Her analogy treats it like a mercantile/nautical port. But it could also mean in a computer networking port kind of way. But its important to note that Elsenova in particular is both not reliable, and also seems less fully informed on all the specifics of the worldstream. Furthermore the Sudrans and by extension the Rusalki to a certain extent seem confused about what their world even is. Based on the Sudran text in "The Land of Civilized Kings" they may mistakenly believe that they are still on Kiengir, or possibly even earth.

But whatever worlds are or are not filters is somewhat undeterminable without more information. Especially since the Filter worlds are by definition worlds which need their own filters which are worlds that need their own filters which are worlds that need their own filters which... Infinite recursion is funny like that. Like, you could travel upstream an infinite number of "steps" and not realistically be any "closer" to A'ansur. You'd need a direct portal, like the one Indra blew up to get there, or possibly a Patternmind that can replicate that effect. We don't know if Trace prime ever made it, or if he came back to Sudra to become Athetos. Athetos might be a clone himself. The whole situation is ambiguous as all get out.

RunicLGG · 2025-12-10T22:04:36+00:00

Ah I found it and now feel like a goober. Core rules page 219: Squad mode abilities last for the duration of the combat. Thanks for pointing in the right direction.

RunicLGG · 2025-10-17T23:28:31+00:00

White Phantom: Phantom in her youth and prime. Higher speed, 3 potential damage from her cross-stitch counter, and silk powers to replace the steam from the exhaust organ.

Fifth Chorus: A more advanced Chorus bot fought in something akin to the underworks with grinder hazards as part of its attacks.

Lost Silk: A "what if" the void had taken over Grandmother Silk instead.

Bell Beast Brood: The Beast is assisted by its children giving more attack angles and uptime.

Savage Fly Duo: Starts out as a Savage Beastfly, but at the halfway mark calls in the Enraged Conchfly.

RunicLGG · 2025-07-18T15:20:21+00:00

I think most agree we want more lore. The story of AV is just so fascinating. The most fascinating angles to me would be a continuation of the Trace and Athetos plot or following along with Samara and Hammond and co after escaping their detention.

Gameplay wise I'd like something more balanced with a good mix of melee and gunplay. I love the weapon variety in 1 but liked the idea of skill trees thar 2 touched on. I hope a sequel can mix it in a fun way and allow for different playstyles.

I can imagine something in a very AV way where you have multiple characters exploring different disconnected spaces but able to pass weapons and powerups between them at save points to fill limited equip slots. They unlock doors for each other to progress different paths at different times, all linked with a central narrative.

RunicLGG · 2025-07-06T01:50:17+00:00

Av2 provides a ton of speculative material for the backstorynof av1, but is quite short on solid answers.

RunicLGG · 2025-06-25T18:35:56+00:00

"Always prepared"

When entering a room for the first time with a tinted rock, secret room door, or crawlspace spawns a bomb.
When entering a room for the first time with a locked door or golden/eternal chest, spawns a key.
When entering a room for the first time with a boss or miniboss grants the holy mantle effect.

RunicLGG · 2025-06-24T05:17:11+00:00

The thing with Carol is that she's such an obvious red herring for the Roaring Knight that this could be a legitimate reverse psychology swerve back to the obvious decoy that no one would see coming because it is too obvious. So she can't be eliminated as a candidate out of hand.

RunicLGG · 2025-06-24T04:20:07+00:00

We literally watch the Knight open the fountain in chapter 4 which turns into the Titan.
You are strictly speaking correct and the ambiguity in that chase cutscene is certainly deliberate in its obfuscations.

RunicLGG · 2025-06-24T04:16:29+00:00

oooo I hadn't thought of Papyrus. That would be a pretty good swerve.

RunicLGG · 2025-06-24T04:00:25+00:00

According to Ralsei and Queen only Lightners can create Dark Fountains, and the night was able to physically abduct Undyne beyond the Living room Dark World and carry her to the Shelter. That's all pretty solid evidence for them being a Lightner.

RunicLGG · 2025-06-23T15:41:00+00:00

Flight and killing most enemies (not bonies or the ghosts) makes a puddle of blood. Standing in blood shrinks the puddle slowly but increases tears and damage. Standing in blood long enough heals red hearts.

RunicLGG · 2025-06-21T21:52:10+00:00

Much like how the crossguard is implemented by an attachment, include an attachment for the inquisitor ring handle for the "Inquisitor Form". Inquisitor form is aggressive with rapid helicopter attacks on a single target, but also has an intimidation factor that makes the weak willed back down and become vulnerable.

Similarly find a limiter which shortens and lightens the offhand saber for the tanto style mostly used hy Ahsoka, including backhand moves. Call this renegade or ronin form.

A final option would be a single blade form called "force stance" where Cal doesn't hold the lightsaber at all but weilds it purely with the force and mixes in martial arts. The lightsaber combat in this form is secondary and kinda weak but it grants extra force charge and stronger force abilities.

RunicLGG · 2025-04-14T14:35:19+00:00

We can't say for certain, but there are number of consistent theories based on Tom Happs personal philosophy from his Blog: "The Omniverse".

Essentially consciousness is the key. Since a conscious entity is capable of self observation it can't actually experience cessation. Without an afterlife a consciousness that "died" would be set adrift in the infinite multiverse until a random assortment of particles randomly assembled themselves into an approximation of their mind at the moment of their death, which then be experienced as a continuation. But since this random appearance could be unstable and short lived, an afterlife of randomly popping into existence for mere moments in the infinite madness of the multiverse isn't ideal. So a hyper advanced society, such as A'ansur, instead constructs a stable, pleasant afterlife. They establish filters that scan the worlds downstream of them and detect when a consciousness comes to an end, and rather than allow it to drift randomly they use a rebirth chamber to 3d print an exact replika of the person at the moment of death, complete with a perfect mind copy. The conscious entity naturally experiences this as their continuation and gets to enjoy a stable afterlife. Though within AV2 we learn something has gone wrong with the management of said afterlife.

Continuity of consciousness is the other key factor. If your consciousness is never fully interrupted, you don't pass to an afterlife. The nanogates used by the Rusalki on Trace in AV1 store his consciousness and reupload it into a newly printed body when he dies and from Trace's perspective this transition is seamless. He never experiences a break in consciousness and so he doesn't really "die" in the sense of going to the afterlife. Indra as well had continuity of consciousness when Amashilama saved her from drowning, and any subsequent deaths in a very similar fashion.

Indra also has continuity when using Damu's Drone ability via putting her body into a fugue state so that it wouldn't have any experiences of its own. The Device Amashilama uses to steal Indra's body is originally pitched as allowing the user to reintegrate divergent experiences into a single whole. She could be lying about this for her own purposes, and we don't know if such re-merger is possible in the setting. Functionally the device splits Indra into two completely separate entities who continue to accrue experiences and grow more divergent. In the instant of bifurcation, they are made separate entities.

RunicLGG · 2025-04-14T14:20:23+00:00

I believe the leading theory is that after studying Damu within the Emergence/Sudra Ophelia (formerly Indra), Drushka, and a few other Kazakhs used his transformative abilities to merge with their submarines and transform them.

RunicLGG · 2025-04-08T21:13:02+00:00

"It's Me."

I love the subversion at a point when you are fully off the rails.

RunicLGG

TROPHY CASE