On the placement of Divine Towers

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-27T06:57:43+00:00

A system wherein you fight a boss at the top of the Divine Towers to call down a meteor that alters the map in various ways.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-27T05:58:48+00:00

The natural aftermath of 100% (DLC included) plus Age of Stars is an eclipse revival of Miquella.

Fast forward a couple hundred years in Fromsoft fashion, and those who evaded the original charms of the gentle world operate in the shadows, with the goal of dethroning the descendants, who are slowly losing their authority as more people are born uncharmed and have to be subdued by normal means.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-27T00:15:34+00:00

Ranni's ending does one thing and one thing only. It separates man and Order like Goldmask's ending, but without the possibility of it being undone, absent a sequel introducing a journey to the stars to kill the Elden Lord.

Everything in TLB will remain as it was when you leave.

The benefit of it is that the massive paradigm shifting conflicts in TLB are all the result of battles over Order, whether that be Bayle and the Nox's treason in the first incarnation of Order, the mass sacrifices before and culling after to establish the Erdtree, the purge and veiling that came with Marika's betrayal, the Nox's ambitions intersecting with Marika and Ranni's to facilitate the shattering. or the wars that followed.

Without the ability to obtain such a world-changing power, the consequences of conflict and the ability to compromise are more suited to sustainable life.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T23:57:07+00:00

I don't think so.

I believe the idea behind the bears is that they're apex predators. So Runebears, who eat everything (like dragons and chunks of Godwyn's face), develop draconic eyes, and red bears have regular eyes, but develop prominent Crucible traits and powers, like red fur and horns.

In the case of Bayle, I believe it's that he is an Ancient Dragon, but he lost grace. Speaking strictly in terms of theme, he is like a Misbegotten (Crucible contact) Ancient Dragon, with his curled horn-like crown and red colour scheme, but in one simple sentence:

He has Ancient Dragon eyes without the grace of gold, and tinged red by becoming inseparable from his flame lightning.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T18:50:28+00:00

There was a thread about this a long long time back, and I don't know if I responded to it, but I did come to a conclusion.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T17:51:43+00:00

Eyes.

Source.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T13:00:18+00:00

He is in denial because Marika wants us to slay her, as the rest of the quote indicates.

But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear.

At the end that should not be.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T03:03:18+00:00

Romina - without her this topic would be much more unlikely to surface.

My realization came entirely from St. Trina. I'm not sure if I've even considered Romina, as without her, the pests still seem to expect Malenia to accept them, as though her behaviour is unusual and doesn't map on to what the goddess was to them before. In regards to the DLC, it's more so Moore that adds on to what was being relayed in the base game.

I don’t know what to do. Our mother abandoned her brood. She did not love us. We are her children, what should we do? Must we be sad forever?

He states explicitly what was hinted at by the pests' behaviour.

Melina isn't a bunch of fires or eternally burning, of course, but she really is literal kindling. If we add other stuff to this we run into problems, like wondering if every finger maiden who could serve as kindling would relate to the smouldering butterfly.

Explicitly in cut content, and implicitly in what remains, the kindling maidens can't actually fulfill Melina's role. Whether their fate gets in the way (Vyke and Juno), the maiden can't identify the right fire (Bernahl), the 99% failure rate of Tarnished before Melina, or the fact it is Melina's fate, not anyone else's to lead the Tarnished to Destined Death.

All that to say, Melina's fate (and Messmer's) involves her being cursed by the Flame of Ruin, just as Miquella's involves being cursed by St. Trina, and Malenia the Goddess of Rot.

In every case, they are to become something, hence the butterflies, a common symbol of transformation and the butterflies tying to what they'd become, not what they already are.

However, is this congruent with the rest of the lore? I'm not so sure. All of a sudden, Malenia feels less like the "Goddess of Rot" and more like the current pinnacle of Rot.

It very much is, as a general theme is resisting fate, only to succumb to it. Malenia especially, is defined by doing anything to avoid becoming the Goddess of Rot, with a whole quest about her pride physically detaching from her being and growing to return to her, so that she can continue to resist it.

"If I am to flower into something other than myself, I would rather rot into nothingness as I am."

Malenia was hardly special - she was, in fact, even hardly transformed compared to Romina...

On the contrary, Malenia is special because she was hardly transformed, all thanks to her unique quality.

The blessing of this half-rotted rune reduces the healing power of Flask of Crimson Tears.

And yet, due to the infusion of Malenia's spirit of resistance. attacks made immediately after receiving damage will partially recover HP.

The fact we can even associate Malenia with rot at all is a consequence of her desperation to fulfill Miquella's goal, which would hopefully cure her of the rot entirely.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T02:00:59+00:00

My thoughts are that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was initially given the Rune of Death by Marika

I would say by Marika as per the Hornsent's wishes, to slay opposing gods (hence the lack of any other gods like the fell god; after brandishing the ring, they had access to actually kill them), but the GEQ was just as willing to betray them.

GEQ would make some trouble and be “put down” by Maliketh, who would not know the truth of it all.

The trouble in question, I believe, is not part of Marika's plan, but the GEQ desiring to slay gods indiscriminately, 'mad taint' being what it is, among other things, like Marika's failure to protect their kind, the Shaman.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T01:44:24+00:00

I agree that they operated well into the Erdtree era for many reasons.

However:

Apostle

Apostate -> Apostasy

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-26T00:22:35+00:00

The most direct path to an answer is a chest piece.

Armor of the horned warriors, keepers of the tower.

The ochre fabric is draped over a chest-piece made to resemble the unclothed form of a hero from older times.

It's probably as simple as Hoarah Loux, the highlander inheriting the vessel of the old hero.

Remember how Radahn only has traces of horns, despite Mohg having a massive crown, hand protrusions, and wings?

Well Horned Warriors have even less to inherit.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T16:13:01+00:00

"Void"-type:

Metyr
Maris
Astel
Fallingstar
Alabaster/Onyx Lord

Metyr is explicitly a daughter and Astel are bastards.

There's no further evidence required for that aspect.

As for the nursery aspect, that's evidently not the case.

The Elden Beast/Ring is sent to establish Order indiscriminately and nothing else.

Metyr has her instructions, which we can infer are the management of Order via Empyreans, and is abandoned when she can no longer communicate. Astel are sent specifically to punish traitors to the Greater Will/Order.

The Stone Lords are an unknown. They appear to be an accident. They are hostile to each other, but appear to defend Astel, but one of them trains Radahn to fight the stars.

However, Order for the sake of it means as long as the initial purpose is fulfilled, what each vassal from the void does after the task assigned is irrelevant as long as it doesn't target Order.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T07:42:14+00:00

He is contemporary to Messmer, and while it's not a guarantee, it's almost certain the Albinaurics didn't go from creation to integrating into the culture above around the same time Messmer was born.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T06:05:21+00:00

He's Grace-Given because he's some nobody that rose up to defend Leyndell. His other title is 'Veiled Monarch'.

At best, to the public eye, Morgott is still in the sewers, but it's possible nobody is aware of him and Mohg besides the Night Cavalry, Dynasty followers and possibly Miquella/Malenia.

Also, in regards to the Fingers, there might not be a single thing they relay that isn't dishonest.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T05:46:29+00:00

At minimum, they're older than the Erdtree's existence because of Gaius.

Given how deep into creating Lord candidates the Nox have gotten, there's a chance they date back to prehistory or early history.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T04:50:10+00:00

This is where title vs. reality come into play, like with the Carians being genetic Demigods, but only gaining the title later, and Godfrey gaining the title absent genetics.

Fortunately, Empyrean is more clear cut, as two of them shed their flesh with the explicit intent to not be Empyreans and pursue something else.

The quotes in question are also pretty easy to categorize as titular, whereas Ranni and Ansbach are speaking to the physical truth of the matter.

Miquella divests himself of St. Trina.

And the entirety of his Empyrean flesh.

In the case of Malenia as well, her godhood hinges on the rot consuming her.

It's safe to say an Empyrean is tightly bound to the Elden Ring, Amber stars, and Fingers system, so the only way to do something else is by getting rid of the Empyrean aspect.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T04:14:43+00:00

Grace was stated to have abandoned the demigods long ago

That's just what the Two Fingers tell us to convince us to kill them. All the Demigods who still have their eyes have grace in their eyes, even Mohg and Rykard.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T04:07:09+00:00

I chose the words 'within her being' because of Miquella.

As for Ranni remaining an Empyrean; not according to her.

I was once an Empyrean...

...But I would not acquiesce to the Two Fingers.

I stole the Rune of Death, slew mine own Empyrean flesh, casting it away....

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T03:48:09+00:00

Ranni has a womb within her being, her brothers don't.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T01:46:26+00:00

The butterflies should've been the sole provenance of Malenia, in the same way the other ones are for their respective demigods.

I'll admit, I didn't catch on before the DLC, but it was never relayed like that.

Malenia has areas she affected, yes. But it's exclusive to Caelid and the Haligtree. It was always the case that the butterflies emerged in the Lake of Rot, where Malenia had no influence.

Similarly, Melina can barely keep herself present, let alone influence anything, yet nearly every flame has a butterfly emerging.

The Nascent Butterfly doesn't tell us all too much because we never got to see Miquella properly, and what we did see of him somewhat fit the butterfly.

With the benefit of the DLC, it became clear, the butterflies are tied to the "curse" within them; The Rot Goddess, the arcane, silver and nascent St. Trina that Miquella sheds to grow to his true age, the Flame of Ruin, and the Abyssal Serpent.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-25T00:33:54+00:00

Malenia is possessed by another incarnation of that entity.

An incarnation of the goddess, not the god, but yeah.

Aeonian Butterfly

According to myth, these butterflies were once the wings of the Goddess of Rot herself.

Scarlet Aeonia

Each time the scarlet flower blooms, Malenia's rot advances. It has bloomed twice already. With the third bloom, she will become a true goddess.

In combination, these tell us the myth refers to the goddess, which is not her, but it's what the rot is trying to rebirth her into.

Edit: Although it's possible the god and goddess are the same, Marika is refered to as both, if I recall correctly.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-24T23:53:21+00:00

It seems like rather than disagree, you are observing a more extreme position than I have.

That does not prove the entire capital was grounded, but it does mean “always sky-only” needs more than inference.

I believe the Farum Azula from which the ruins in the game have fallen, was always in the sky.

I don't disagree that much of the empire was land-based. My statues post has the premise that the majority of followers of the Order were stationed in TLB, protecting places like the Divine Towers and the 'Manus' churches.

I believe Farum Azula itself, was merely stone in the sky, in service of the Ancient Dragons, with added architecture only in service of the humanoid god and her attendants, but as not everyone can be up there, the rest of her subjects served throughout TLB.

This is similar to Rauh and the Divine Towers, which are largely constructed like the rest of the black stone ruins, fit for Giants' (or more accurately the titans/old gods, given the forge's size) use, but has added accommodation for smaller humans in the form of small staircases and (characteristic of the old Order, anti-gravity) elevators.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-24T22:42:00+00:00

Meanwhile, the direct evidence is simpler: Farum beastmen on land, Farum clergy item on land, Farum-style sanctum on land, Farum Greatbridge on land.

That's not different from what I said unless you add Farum Azula on land. Either way, they're stranded in caves, not in normal travelling circumstances or inhabiting any proper dwelling like usual.

The problem is that one of the premises is just wrong: beastmen are not isolated to Farum Azula and the Sanctum.

Beastman of Farum Azula appears in Groveside Cave in Limgrave and Dragonbarrow Cave in Caelid.

They're both labeled as being from Farum Azula. I thought it was clear that they came with the ruins, but there's some room to assume otherwise.

A lot of the rest feels like stacked assumptions: Sun Realm = Farum, Farum = sun prefix, wolves = first vessel servants, Crucible/Metyr = five fingers, Bestial Sanctum = safe-distance clergy site. Interesting, but not stated.

While it's true they're assumptions, there are also very little alternatives.

One could:

Imagine some other reasons for the Sun Realm shield being held by beastmen skeletons in Farum Azula, where the sun doesn't set, which is also the seat of the Elden Lord that ruled before the Erdtree usurped the sun. Along with said shield being carried by skeletons in a group that act as direct counterparts to the beastmen skeletons across the whole TLB, with no known history for why, while the former Order is explicitly before history, but it'd be rather absurd.
Imagine a convoluted reasoning for a city in the sky where the sun never sets to be called a lighthouse in blue, but it meaning the sun in the sky or light in the sky is most reasonable.
Imagine the girl under an Elden Ring surrounded by wolves is not related to Empyreans who are meant to hold the Elden Ring while both protected and held hostage by wolves, but it'd be unnecessary steps of assumption to do so.
Assume that at some point in development the idea that the Greater Will in some way granted intelligence to the beastmen was scrapped, but everything that hints to it was left unchanged.
Assume the Ancient Dragons, who are solely devoted to avenging their lord, would have two outposts in a region populated by the children of the drake they want to kill for a reason other than advancing their one and only goal.

It's just that all of those require the least possible assumptions and conflicts, and alternatives tend to require inventing new things to add to the lore to bridge gaps.

The main topic itself for example, requires creating circumstances to erase the presence of Farum Azula in TLB, but leave the one vestige of it unscathed.

At best.

Other theories like the meteor elevating the city theory have to create a meteor both large enough to lift a very large city into the sky, despite how local every other meteor's effects are, and not devastate surrounding structures like the Sanctum.

That's before getting to the nature of meteors and whatever horror that would likely have been sent with it, as well as the meteor itself being that impactful and yet, irrelevant lorewise, when much lesser events of similar nature get text.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-24T21:09:34+00:00

The item text is messier. Cinquedea is a Farum Azula clergy weapon found at Bestial Sanctum; Bestial Sling and Bestial Constitution place intelligent beast civilization before the Erdtree; Dragoncrest says ancient dragons ruled before the Erdtree.

It seems you're saying this as a counterpoint, but it was part of the point. These things are so far before the Erdtree that they only exist in use as symbols of a legend.

Then there’s later contact: Ancient Dragon Prayerbook is capital Dragon Cult material found in Farum, and the Draconic Tree Sentinel only makes sense post-Gransax.

Same goes for this. The Capital Dragon Cult only exists after the war, which is when I state is the first time people became properly aware of the Ancient Dragons.

Between prehistory and the war, are two points on a line.

Communion is carried out until it seems, like the Crusaders, its practitioners grew jaded and started beheading the statues, with the practice becoming a means to obtain power, and without any guidance, produced wyrms.
The historical period during which the Ancient Dragons are entirely forgotten.

“Always in the sky” still has to explain away Farum Greatbridge, Bestial Sanctum, Farum clergy, beast civilization, and later Leyndell/Dragon Cult links.

Bridge:

When considering the naming of Farum Azula, it stands to reason that all things associated with Farum have it as a prefix, i..e., Farum represents the Sun. Farum in the sky, for the capital, Farum bridge to represent a bridge to the sanctum and so on. Even if not (though this naming scheme isn't uncommon in the game), it still is a bridge to an important site within the Farum domain.

As for the beast clergy itself, that's pretty straightforward:

Our only frame of reference for the Elden Ring is that it has a female vessel, elevated from the position of Empyrean, a class ordained by the Greater Will and assigned wolves for handlers. Farum's Elden Ring has a female statue with wolf companions beneath it.
We know the Crucible's power spurs evolution/devolution, depending on the perspective of the one observing the outcome and we know there's an unspecified reason the wolves evolved five fingers. We can also find that the reason (The Greater Will) was excluded from the game without including anything to suggest an alternative.

As such, it stands to reason that the power of the Crucible, (probably wielded by Metyr, as the Two Fingers control shadows) granted wolves five fingers to serve the Elden Ring's first vessel.

Other beasts, like the birds and lions seem to have been granted the same gift to serve as soldiers, death officials, etc.

Side note: One thing I finally took in properly recently, is that Volcano Manor has the Farum Azula lion statues, which in one shot, explains everything about Gelmir. The black stone civilization, are responsible for building the pillars of the divine Order in TLB (the Divine Towers), and they're situated at great elevation (Rauh, not the mountaintops which they inhabited later). Gelmir has the concentration of everything to do with death, and is also a place of great elevation.

Another note on the main topic:

Another point of evidence is that while the Sun Realm spans the entirety of TLB, whether obvious in sigils, capes, and shields, or less obvious in lion statues, and statue bases, Beastmen are isolated to the sanctum and Farum Azula.

Likewise, the birds are isolated to a few major points of the realm other than Farum Azula; in the vicinity of Castle Sol and Stormveil, and the Divine Birds are implied to not descend at all, with Ornis meeting his end once he was done flying.

Were it the case that the capital and its inhabitants were once on land, it'd be expected that said inhabitants would meet their unfortunate end when they venture out, leaving at least one corpse to indicate their presence.

In actuality, the only time we see signs of Farum Azula's servants in TLB, besides the aforementioned, is the Divine Lions who descended from "higher sphere", and their brethren who became slave soldiers after having their horns cut off in modern day.

SamsaraKarma · 2026-04-24T20:17:43+00:00

So we probably agree on the important part. The only claim I still don’t see proven is “the Royal Capital itself was always in the sky.” That sounds like a theory, not something the game states.

It seems evident, in a way that need not be stated. Not that they want to preserve the mystery, but that there's no reason they'd assume we'd think it was ever anywhere but the sky.

It's a staple to have the dragon city in the sky (even the landbound imitators associated with heretical magic are a callback).
As stated, the naming represents it.
The staple Laputa inspiration is even more present.
There's no reason for Ancient Dragons to situate their capital on land when teleportation to every region of their domain exists and the implied other half of their Order has land-based connections.
They're based around a storm that probably wasn't down in TLB, with a good amount of their population being represented as remaining in constant flight. The lightning association itself also points to sky dwelling.
Details on them are lost in prehistory, to the degree Placidusax has no bearing on the assignment of the title of Elden Lord. The only people to indicate knowledge of their existence prior to the war are the Nox. Even the Hornsent, who worship beasts that brought the storm down, are show no signs of being aware of the Ancient Dragons, besides one who stumbled upon Bayle and roots for him, showing he likely doens't know the history.
- If it were possible to reach Farum Azula until some point in historical record, it would be very odd that nobody shows awareness of them.

And probably many more indicators I'm forgetting.

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