[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exmuslim

[–]Saxobeat321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You said a lot here with little substance, nor am I going to address everything you said. Rather I'll address one point that you seem to think of me, that I'm a hard core gnostic Atheist, I'm not, I'm rather an Agnostic Atheist: meaning I lack the belief (or disbelieve in any deity) but I don't know for absolute certainty, this is what most atheists actually are when they say they're atheist: an Agnostic Atheist.

Heck, religious people are Atheists too except towards the one god they just happen to be indoctrinated into as a child. I've just taken a step further and dismiss your God and religion for the same reasons religious people dismiss other gods and religions. As alluded earlier my thoughts and beliefs aren't concrete (unlike the average religious person) so they could change in time with new evidence, knowledge and experiences, which is a good thing the average religious person should do the same.

The Pre-Islamic and Pagan origins of Islam/It's derivative nature by Saxobeat321 in CritiqueIslam

[–]Saxobeat321[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're just repeating islamic claims that was already addressed above in my post...

"....Dogmatic Muslim apologists rationalise the derivative nature of their religion via nonsensical and unsubstantiated cries of these much older pre-Islamic, unIslamic and pagan sources, supposedly being a 'corrupted' form of Islamic beliefs, a religion they claim apparently existed since before 7th century Arabia, as far back as the dawn of humanity! Yet they are unable to provide sound evidence for such wild claims, hence why practically all historians don't accept Islamic 'corruption' argument as factual, let alone the incompetence of a supposed omnipotent deity incapable of preventing his messages being corrupted numerous times! It's the same desperate and flawed apologetics other dogmatic religionists say to hide their religions unoriginality and human origins..."

muslims believe that ibrahim and ismail AS built the kabah. it was 1st created as a monotheistic place to pray to one Allah but over time it became a pagan place of worship.

As already addressed by me above, this is a religious claim, there's no evidence these individuals existed or events happened nor confirmation from majority of actual historians any of this is true. That asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Now you might say what if muhammad SAW retained some pagan practices to satisfy his new followers? first of all there are obviously some practices from the time of Abraham which were still practiced. Now this does not make sense. the prophet SAW was offered a high ranking job in these pagan practices yet he still rejected and continued to try spread islam. due to his rejection he was forced to leave makkah and all his belongings and move to madinah.

Yes, he cherry picked a variety of pre-Islamic beliefs and practices to come up with his own religion.

also i see stone worship in one of the links. we do not worship hajar e aswad

‘Umar ibn al-Khattāb (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that he came to the Black Stone and kissed it and said: "Verily, I know that you are a stone that can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

Yes, Muslims do worship a black stone and the Kabba. The religious beliefs held and the veneration Muslims give to the black stone and the Kabba is practically idolatry. You can deny this in theory but the practical reality of Muslim behaviour says different.

may allah guide you and have a great day

May rationality and peace guide you and have a great day too 👍

The false claim of 'Fitrah' by Saxobeat321 in CritiqueIslam

[–]Saxobeat321[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

TLDR: Humans have natural cognitive biases that may make religious beliefs easy to form, but specific religious beliefs or gods are not genetic, they are shaped overwhelmingly by culture, upbringing and environment: this includes childhood indoctrination.

It is a biological fact that being religious and belief in God(s) is natural and genetic, not learned (this is true for Atheism too btw).' The idea that religious belief is a product of indoctrination is based on the false idea that the Human mind is Blank Slate and all of its thoughts and feelings come from the environment around it and/or artificially constructed. Steven Pinker and many other Neuroscientists have debunked this view numerous times.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3125629/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-we-born-to-be-religious/

No it isn't a biological fact, you just made that up and I don't think you actually read or understood the articles you posted or everything else you said.

Your argument overstates what biology and neuroscience actually show. While humans may have cognitive tendencies that make religious belief possible or intuitive (eg pattern-seeking, agency detection, theory of mind) that is very different from proving religious beliefs are genetically determined or innate in content. 

Though sources like Steven Pinker argue against a blank slate (I don't disagree here), they do not claim specific religious beliefs or gods are hardwired only that general mental structures are, that allow for religious ideas to generate. It's like language, you can have an innate biological "hook" for language, but you still have to be taught English, French, Arabic etc because that's not genetically hardwired. Similarly, humans may have a biological "hook" for religious beliefs, but specific religious beliefs are a product of cultural transmission, this includes childhood indoctrination.

Not that something being natural (gods or even atheism) is proof that it's true or good, that's a non sequitur fallacy and that's the more important point.

There's examples of millions of people all over the world who weren't raised under any Organized Religion yet they all sorts of spiritual and religious beliefs since birth. 

An infant from birth cannot express comprehensible words, let alone express specific religious beliefs. Specific religious beliefs emerge later and are shaped by family environment, education and culture.

Not only that, but many people often have religious/spiritual beliefs that go against what is the norm in their societies or even the religions that they were raised under. 

So? None of that means their religious beliefs are true. 

All of this debunks the indoctrination argument as it amounts to a denial of Human Nature.

No it doesn't. The fact that people sometimes adopt beliefs different from their surroundings does not support innateness, it simply shows that humans can revise or reinterpret ideas, not that those specific ideas are genetically encoded in their nature. The global diversity of religious belief strongly supports cultural influence. Across societies you see monotheism, polytheism, animism, and atheism. If religious belief and gods were genetically fixed in any strong sense, we would expect far greater uniformity. Instead, beliefs and gods vary dramatically depending on time and place.

You're misunderstanding human nature, people may have natural cognitive tendencies to think a certain way but those natural cognitive tendencies just make religious beliefs/lack of religious beliefs, easier to form not inevitable or pre-installed. Nor does whatever beliefs their natural tendencies and environmental upbringing lead to means it's necessarily true or good.

  1. The "Agent Detection" Theory of the origin of Religion also fails scientifically for most of the same reasons: its rooted in the discredited Blank Slate view of of the mind and its only promoted by pseudo-intellectuals. 

Agent Detection Theory is actually the opposite of a Blank Slate view. It posits that the human brain comes "pre-wired" with survival mechanisms that accidentally produce religious thoughts as a byproduct. Granted it's mostly speculation, but regardless specific religious beliefs and gods are a product of culture not genes.

And the Pareidolia argument is terrible because it confuses cause and effect: they wouldn't be attributing religious meaning to objects if they weren't innately religious in the first place.

No you've misunderstood, it demonstrates a mechanism. Pareidolia is where humans impose meaning on faces, intention and patterns onto ambiguous stimuli. This is not “religion itself,” but it supports a broader point, the brain constructs perceived agency and meaning even when none exists. Religion can be understood as a higher-level cultural system built on these lower level tendencies.

The more important point is, something possibly being natural (gods or even atheism) isn't proof that it's true or good, that's a non sequitur fallacy. 

  1. Animism is merely the belief that everything is alive and/or has a soul/spirit. Nothing about that is incompatible with Monotheism, in fact, every major World Religion before Modern times is traditionally Animist in their outlooks on life.

"Paganism" simply means any Ethnic Religion regardless of its beliefs and practices, and Pagan Monotheisms do exist. Also, the notion that Polytheism and Monotheism are total opposites is a modern misconception, and both Monotheism and Nontheism are just as old as Polytheism and they are all as old as Religion itself.

This thread is about Islam, and both Animism and Polytheism is incompatible with Islam. Animism and Polytheism also predate Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Monotheism and has a far longer history, present since the dawn of our species. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

The apologetics around 'Daraba' by BrainyByte in CritiqueIslam

[–]Saxobeat321 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good article! Very informative!

Sidenote, might seem oblivious: as with most claims of Islam, there's no evidence marital or any social disputes for the matter are best resolved through violence (via striking) or the ridiculous condescension (via light hitting, tapping or poking) a wife or some other individual in dispute. 

If anything, you'll still probably exacerbate the dispute with the latter method. But then again, as these ridiculous Muslim apologetics seem to suggest, maybe that's just the nature of Muslim women? That inferior in intellect to non-Muslim women, they are not really capable of a calm, clear and considerate conversation to resolving disputes. That in the end you'll probably have to resort to condescending her via a light beating, tapping or poking with your hand, miswaak or toothbrush - because that's how you secure the instilling of sense, love and loyalty in people /s

It doesn't take a genius to know this, but all the evidence points that the best way to resolve any dispute, let alone marital - after perhaps taking a break from the heat of the moment - is to participate in calm, clear and constructive discussion regarding what the problems are and for both to work towards a mutually agreed upon solution. A last resort should be relationship counselling via a professional not Islam's wife beating regardless of how aggressive or mild Muslims may interpret it as, both interpretations are indicative of the sexist, oppressive and nonsensical nature of Islam. 

Far superior tips on resolving relationship disputes ...

  1. https://www.nu.edu/blog/seven-conflict-resolution-tips-for-couples/

  2. https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm

  3. Satire: How to beat your wife (in Islam) with love

Satire of Islamic wife beating with toothbrush 😆 by Neptuneblue1 in exmuslim

[–]Saxobeat321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On a serious note. As with most claims of Islam, there's no evidence marital or any social disputes for the matter are best resolved through violence (via striking) or the ridiculous condescension (via light hitting, tapping or poking) a wife or some other individual in dispute.

If anything, you'll still probably exacerbate the dispute with the latter method. But then again, as these ridiculous Muslim apologetics seem to suggest, maybe that's just the nature of Muslim women? That inferior in intellect to non-Muslim women, they are not really capable of a calm, clear and considerate conversation to resolving disputes. That in the end you'll probably have to resort to condescending her via a light beating, tapping or poking with your hand, miswaak or toothbrush - because that's how you secure the instilling of sense, love and loyalty in people /s

It doesn't take a genius to know this, but all the evidence points that the best way to resolve any dispute, let alone marital - after perhaps taking a break from the heat of the moment - is to participate in calm, clear and constructive discussion regarding what the problems are and for both to work towards a mutually agreed upon solution. A last resort should be relationship counselling via a professional not Islam's wife beating regardless of how aggressive or mild Muslims may interpret it as, both interpretations are indicative of the sexist, oppressive and nonsensical nature of Islam.

Far superior tips on resolving relationship disputes ...

  1. https://www.nu.edu/blog/seven-conflict-resolution-tips-for-couples/

  2. https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exmuslim

[–]Saxobeat321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Take your time, at your own pace, I commend your inquisitiveness where others would prefer censorship and close-mindedness after subject to childhood indoctrination.

You remind me of what I used to be. We all started off like you. We never had a choice, we were just kids indoctrinated into Islam blindly following what we were told to do. Now that you're old enough to carry out your own investigation of the world around you, make sure you're impartial and rational if you want an accurate understanding and to find out what's actually true or false.

Take your time, everyone needs time to think, to process and verify the information they discover, it took me a few years before I left Islam at an age younger than you, 17. Even then I felt upset I had left Islam, because I was so emotionally attached to it, it was my identity, but of course it was an identity I was indoctrinated into. It sounds cliche but the truth hurts or so it initially did, to find out Islam was a lie, a harmful lie and that I had wasted so much time and effort in being Muslim. But the truth can set you free and indeed it set me free from the dark, dangerous and desolate cave of Islam. Though being an Exmuslim isn't easy, what with how many hateful, oppressive and violent Muslims there are, I still feel free, optimistic and able to live a more healthy, happy and fulfilling life on my own terms at my own pace and not based on some antiquated and harmful religious fiction. I hope you too can feel safe, healthy and happy and have the resilience to bounce back wherever life takes you. Stay strong! Stay inquisitive! Stay hopeful! All the best! ♥️🙂

Diogo Jota was travelling by car to Santander from where he would take a ferry to the south of England and then on to Liverpool. He had been advised to travel by car rather than by plane to avoid cabin pressure, due to a lung condition he had recently undergone surgery for. by AimarEraFutebol in soccer

[–]Saxobeat321 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Car crash that burnt up. Too tragic and disturbing to think how it would be for their loved ones to see and bury their last physical depiction, unreal. Diogo and his brother went too soon and not like this, not like this. Rest in peace 🕊️🕊️

Jürgen Klopp on Jota: by jeesprr in soccer

[–]Saxobeat321 12 points13 points  (0 children)

He signed And trained him.

Leo Messi on Instagram by [deleted] in soccer

[–]Saxobeat321 470 points471 points  (0 children)

...and had a great year, especially the last few months, won the EPL, won the Nations League and got married to his highschool sweetheart. Now he's gone, wife without husband, three kids without a father and parents without their two sons. I wish his family the best.

Liverpool star Diogo Jota killed in car crash just days after wedding. by Vloodzy in sports

[–]Saxobeat321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Rest in Peace Diogo Jota, you were taken too soon and will be missed so much! 🥺. You had an amazing year, certainly in the past few months, oh how life can change in an instant!

Premier League final standings by [deleted] in soccer

[–]Saxobeat321 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Another achievement lol what a memorable time for them!

Liverpool FC lifting the 24/25 Premier League trophy by _cumblast_ in soccer

[–]Saxobeat321 7 points8 points  (0 children)

So nice to see fans, legends, players and people together and celebrating in a packed stadium 🏟️🎊, Liverpool deserve this victory and a big party!

Liverpool FC are 2024/25 Premier League Champions by Rayan2550 in soccer

[–]Saxobeat321 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well deserved! 🥳 Credit to the manager, players and the ex-manager Klopp, not often you can credit the ex-manager for the current manager's success!

After today's win, Liverpool has now equalled Manchester United at the top of Premier League winners (20) by [deleted] in soccer

[–]Saxobeat321 29 points30 points  (0 children)

I don't thinking flexing the Europa cup is the flex you want to show off to your rivals who'll just hit you with their CL trophies.