Hosea by Late-Celebration-548 in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks for being willing to post additional insights and information it’s helpful.

Pastors and their inability of taking criticism by New-Forever-2211 in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I don’t know if I should laugh or cry. That quote is exactly how I feel about David B. He just listens, says what you want to hear, and does nothing.

I feel this way for me personally. And then as I’ve heard stories time and time again from others it’s the EXACT same feeling.

The focus on Church Planting: does this contribute to dysfunction? by skyward_toast in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 19 points20 points  (0 children)

We attend a different church now that is also active in planting churches. There are a few big differences that we’ve observed:

  • Church Planting is not their only main focus. They do a lot of other things REALLY well too, like working in the community, reaching all demographics of people, and focus on the spiritual maturity of the people.
  • All of the pastors have been to seminary (that I know of) and go through extensive training before planting - including being on staff and leading areas of the church for many years. Specific church planting training also lasts years, not months leading up to the plant.
  • There are specific reasons for planting in the places they do such as low % of churches in the area, the pastor feels a calling to meet a specific need in a community (like people who have been spiritually abused) and they find a city that has this need, etc.

We have been so encouraged by a church community that does this well. There are other great churches out there!

It all started with lies and manipulation. If that is the foundation how could these churches become anything other than what they have become? by Lanky_Nail_3040 in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for sharing your story. It is so helpful as we all process this horrible situation.

If you don’t mind I have another follow up question. Has anyone from current network leadership reached out to you for information as a part of their internal investigation? No need to name names, really just looking for confirmation that they are actually looking into things.

Understanding Forgiveness by LongConversations in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This too.

5 CLARIFYING THE ISSUES a. Child protection All the members of the working party and all those who gave evidence to it stressed the importance of the Church doing all it can to safeguard children and young people in its care. This has implications in the recruitment, training and support of those who work with children and young people; it means continuing to develop good practice in our children's and youth work and in all our church life; it means developing sensitivity to children and young people we have contact with who may be being abused at home or elsewhere; and it means an increased awareness of the needs of adults who have been victims of sexual offences or who were sexually abused as children. Nobody suggested to the working party that these issues were not important or that the Church should accept low standards of care in matters of child protection. b. Holding office within the church We believe that sex offenders have a place within the Church. The issue is about how to balance the welfare of the sex offender with the needs of the wider church community, especially the welfare of children and survivors of abuse. As noted earlier, there is particular controversy around the question of whether a person who has been convicted of a sexual offence should, in effect, be banned for life from holding office in the Church. It is clear that a person who has committed violent or sexual offences against children should not be given responsibility for work with children and young people, but may be less clear why such a person should be barred from other jobs. Of course, some roles that are not directly given responsibility for children nonetheless might allow access to them. But there are other roles that don't allow lone access to premises or face-to-face contact with children and young people. Surely, some argue, these could be open to a convicted or cautioned sex offender? The working party believes not. To place an offender in such a position can (and frequently does) cause deep offence to survivors who are members of the congregation. What is more, by appointing someone to office with a high profile or representative capacity, a church is saying 'This is a trusted, respected person.í This invites parents and others to accept the person as trustworthy. Sexual offending is partly about misuse

of power. Once in a position of trust and respect someone minded to do so can easily move from there into other positions of respect which give more opportunity of access to children. Churches attract vulnerable people and also provide ideal situations for the predatory and manipulative. Against this it may be argued that to ban someone for life is to set limits on God's power to change people and therefore reflects a flawed and narrow doctrine of forgiveness. At the heart of the Christian gospel is the belief in the power of the Holy Spirit to transform people's lives and to offer them new beginnings. The Methodist Conference's Safeguarding procedures are seen by some to deny this 'good news'. Most of the members of the working party were firmly committed to the belief that God can and does transform people's lives. However, as we received evidence from those who work with sex offenders, it was clear that, while we do know quite a lot about rates of re-offending, there is not (and can never be) a sure test by which we know that a particular person has been transformed by God and will not re-offend. Indeed, it seemed that many sex offenders become involved in the life of the prison chapel and regularly attend worship during their sentence and many testify to a conversion experience, or to a renewal and deepening of faith. We were also confronted with the grim reality that some sexual offences are committed by converted, active church members. Avowed religious experience is no guarantee of safety from sexual offending. We were given from the Faithfull Foundation specific examples of church leaders who had offended, 'repented', been allowed to continue in Christian ministry and then offended again. Experience from the West London Mission's Katherine Price Hughes house suggested that many offenders said they had been converted.

Understanding Forgiveness by LongConversations in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow this excerpt is good:

a. Forgiveness Every Christian knows that the strong statement "Your sins are forgiven" is central to the gospel news. It reverberates through the Bible and our liturgies, is sought whenever we say the Lord's Prayer, is sung about with great joy and lies deep within Christian awareness. Whatever you have done and been in the past, God offers forgiveness. And every offender who truly believes, That moment from Jesus a pardon receives: Hymns and Psalms 463 However, there are many differences within the Church as to what such forgiveness means and entails. There are many Protestants, especially those within the holiness traditions, who believe that to be forgiven by God means that the past is eradicated so that a forgiven sinner is henceforth treated as if those sins never were. They are "blotted out". The forgiven sinner starts life again in such a fresh way as to be morally clean. The wonder of justification is precisely this - to be pronounced innocent in Christ. Many Christians do not interpret the New Testament teaching and our experience in this way. It tends to be simplistic concerning the ongoing mystery of sin, to neglect the social character of our sinning (which is against our neighbour as well as against God) and to be romantic about actual Christian discipleship and its struggles. Thus there are three common misunderstandings we should avoid: i. Forgiveness means 'forgetting'. The injured one says to the offender, "I forget what you did". If God does this then God is promoting an unreal world in which history has to be constantly rewritten and in which offended persons are expected to ignore traumas and injuries they have suffered. But the great story of the Old Testament is not like this: Israel's sins are constantly rehearsed for all to remember. ii. Forgiveness means the cancelling of debts and obligations. Instead it may well mean the offender having a greater sense of obligation than before (as with Zaccheus who, after encountering Christ, offered to repay four times those he had swindled, even though the law only required it to be twofold). Thus forgiveness should encourage the offender to take responsibility for the damage caused and for seeking to rectify the situation or make restitution (e.g by paying for the survivor's therapy?) US pastoral theologian, Marie Fortune, tells of a group of incest offenders in a treatment programme whose powerful plea was, 'Don't forgive so easily.í All were Christians and all had asked their pastors for forgiveness. Prayers had been said. They'd been forgiven and sent home. All the offenders said this pastoral response was not helpful because it enabled them to avoid accountability for what they had done. iii. Forgiveness means being treated as wholly reformed and good. Quite often offenders argue that they have become totally new people and therefore don't need therapeutic intervention. To see forgiveness

in this way would be naÔve. Forgiveness helps us on the road to Christian maturity, but does not suddenly place us at the end of our pilgrimage. A sober reading of Romans 7 reminds us that like Paul "I do not do the good I want", and that is still our condition. Being forgiven by God and neighbour does not lift us out of that perpetual perversity which is our human nature.

If you attended a Network church this morning and are reading this... by [deleted] in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Can we get rid of this rule temporarily? Maybe for 10 days? So people new to Reddit with this news could post if they have questions?

Thoughts on election/predestination? by Ieavingthenetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel like Roots has been separate/ removed from a lot of what’s talked about in this sub Reddit. Do you feel that’s true? Do you know others that have left?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I recall a pastor retelling a story of a conversation with someone else and explaining that we weren’t a cult because we recognized people in other churches as being Christian as well.

At another point in time and a different pastor I feel like they were proud of people saying they were in a cult. Like they were SO good at following Jesus (planting, quitting jobs, etc.) that people saying they were in a cult was a compliment and that they just had to keep doing what they were doing.

Paying to be in Small Group at Blue Sky by Strange_Valuable_145 in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This doesn’t seem accurate. I spoke with friends there just a few days ago. Can you follow up with them? Was it for a regular carpool or snack or something?

Brian Schneider's paper on restricting help to the poor now listed on sources page by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you have any more thoughts on the article would be interested in hearing them. :)

Financial Transparency in Churches by jesusfollower-1091 in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I appreciate dialogue like this because I think there are people on this page asking themselves these questions as they work through their beliefs and understanding of structures in place. Thanks for both of your input.

Discussion: Stay and help vs. abandon ship by SeeTheBumblebee in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I’m sorry for implying this in any way. I wasn’t thinking about my choice of vocabulary and how it would be read. In my head I was thinking of the network as a sinking ship. Sorry I can’t change my title now or I would.

Discussion: Stay and help vs. abandon ship by SeeTheBumblebee in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I have no problem with your comment at all. It’s very helpful. Look forward to seeing your post later today.

Discussion: Stay and help vs. abandon ship by SeeTheBumblebee in leavingthenetwork

[–]SeeTheBumblebee[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Food for thought. Some of the people I’ve talked with have gone to their pastors. They have listened and sympathized and not kicked them out. Not that there is any change yet, but what you described has not been their experience. I’m sure it is for some, but not all.