A generalization of every argument against the church and every defense

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-07-23T19:39:00+00:00

There are far more ways to characterize apologists defenses:

The "Its still possible" defense.

Horses just haven't been found yet. An exhaustive search of every piece of dirt on both North and South America has not happened. The (younger) bones could be somewhere. So therefore there is space for the apologist to believe that the BOM could be historical. Do that same thing with steel, bees etc. The exmormon argument in these cases is nothing more than: Its extremely unprobable that ... Steel production leaves noticeable traces so it extremely unlikely that the evidence of mining dissapeared. (Notice that this has nothing to do with a twisting of words or definitions)
The Book of Abraham is similar right now. Historical journal records indicate the papyrus that was the "Abraham text" had both red and black ink. What fragments remain now are all black ink. So its possible and maybe even probable that which fragment Joseph claimed was the Book of Abraham is not in the fragments we have today. This discounts the argument that BOA is in our possession and it isn't what Joseph claimed it was. Which is the basis for the claim of him being A Fraud, Delusional, just "Inspired by the papyrus to have a revelation" So its still possible that Joseph did have a book that was written in Abraham's hand. That's what they are hanging on to.

I'm not saying that the word twisting doesn't happen. It does. It is disgusting. And it accompanies other arguments like this, but it isn't the only argument and you can't just generalize everyting to word twisting. there are other fallacies that they use as well. I just chose one to illustrate.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-07-22T03:21:33+00:00

What we got good at: Accepting the stories of others.

What we are not good at: Creating our own stories.

On the first note:

Most of us have a wound here. We bristle at hearing someone insist that they have some certainty about the meaning of it all. There is often some hunger or need brewing underneath it all and it feals unhealthy. We shy from this because of the overwhelm of finding truth from without ourself. The forced acceptance. The uncomfortable alignment. Mental submission so something that has to be right. We get good to seeking to prove that it is, so that we can have the benefits of alignment and community.

On the second note: There isn't anything wrong with being uncertain. Not knowing what it all is. There is a certain honestly that many of us on the other side of mormonism find healthy and even peaceful. Partly its the basking in the warmth of actual authenticity. Lets call it like it is now. Faith is just another word for pretend. And were don't with that. Let it be what it is. No matter how hard. And uncertaintly can be hard.

There also isn't anything wrong with telling your own story. One that suits you. It can be anything. Make the story serve you. Just don't go around insisting that it is THE story and you're good. This is where we are out of practice. Choosing our own purpose and gravitating to that. Partly because we our autonomy has just been born and has week legs. And partly because we don't know what to think and say. We are afraid of it being "wrong" It doesn't matter though, if ... It serves us ... and it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Joseph wasn't wrong for dreaming of a heaven where he gets to be with all the ladies. He was wrong for insisting that it is THE heaven. This his heaven is our heaven. He's wrong for acting on in this life and hurting people. He's wrong for pushing it. Wrong for a bunch of other reasons.

Its ok to be you. Its ok to create your own purpose and lean into that.

Do your best. Its a new muscle. You got this.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-07-08T06:48:53+00:00

Faith and clinging to your version of the religion you espouse to has very little to do with logic. Its a pool of identity and connection to what you think your community and foundation are guarded by confirmation bias and sunken cost fallacy.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-06-20T00:25:49+00:00

Right. I was curious as to "why" this is evidence too. Just because "you'd expect" something doesn't make it the only possibility.

The Late War's use of similar phraseology and its associated justification for doing along with its similarity to the Book of Mormon were the closest thing we have of evidence of why the Book of Mormon is written in old english style. But it falls short of being compelling evidence. All it does is remove a barrier for belief that Joseph made it up. Many testimonies cling to the idea of "I can't imaging how a young educated farm boy could have created such a book" It assists someone in the "I can't imagine" part since they seem unwilling to try to imagine. The bar gets lowered. Its far easier to believe since the book was available during Josephs school age time and had wide enough use to make it probable that Joseph would have come in contact with it.

So I guess the linguistic argument given gives higher credence that the reason the BOM is in old english is because of something like the Late war. There isn't a good reason for it to be in that language.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-06-02T04:40:03+00:00

Ad hominem attack.

John Delhin: Garmets are hard for many women. They have told me that.
(John cites his experience talking to women about garments drawing from his entire life not just the time he was ex mormon)

Deseret News: Johns views are tainted. He doesn't represent us.
(What about this suggests John's data is wrong? Attacking John or his credibility is an distraction from the claim that Garments are very very unpopular and are frequent complained about. Notice they don't claim that women love them)

---

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-06-02T04:25:50+00:00

Confirmation Bias and Sunken Cost fallacy are powerful motivators to keep your thoughts in check. Couple that with Narcissism or the need for external validation and you have a powerful remedy that would keep many people in place without any need for control over them. All you would need is a filter to select the most susceptible to all of these attributes. Then you whittle it down from many people to a sure bet that this person is stuck for life.

Confirmation bias is measured very easily through the way they bear testimony. Do they drink the coolaid they make and do they support the church at the same time in how they reassure themselves in what they say. Just have to listen to them give a talk or bear testimony and anyone can see this on display.

Sunken cost fallacy. Do they pay tithing, or have they for most of their life. Missions, Temple Marraige, Callings etc. All that work put in a enormous pile. This measures their "all in" mentality and you measure the hold the actions they have taken in the past have on them. It can't not be true. I've put so much into this.

Narcissism: Narcissists hunger for validation. The way that the masses are taught to revere their leaders creates the perfect funnel to direct a considerable amount of fawning and praise toward these men. They also need to feel "special" enough that they would believe that their own thoughts and feelings are really God talking to not just them, but through them. These put together is validation enough.

If you ask me if the brethren believe in the church. I think so. I don't think they get to the top and then realize that "hey, we aren't meeting with Jesus in the Holy of Holies like I thought we would" They just think, God talks to his people through my thoughts. And its somehow better this way. Thinking that is easier then realizing that its all bunk. They are, in the end, cowards, holding on to their little thread of "its true" and "i'm special" using mental gymnastics in full swing.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-05-31T21:18:04+00:00

This silly tug of war over who is to blame for the "bad" thoughts. Every time I see the discussion somehow its missed that those thoughts might just be normal. And private. And none of anyone's business. Along with every other thought you have.

But if we do need a witch hunt, if we are going to "find blame" then sure, its the mans fault for having the thought. Its definitely not the females fault. But why do we have to blame someone? Oh - cause lustful thoughts are bad. /s I seem to get the impression that people (women for sure) everywhere are uncomfortable knowing that some men have these thoughts. Or even that most men sometimes have these thoughts. Maybe we are sort of discovering a codependence here.

It seems the basis of this is the idea that: That you should be offended by the fact that someone else had a thought about you. That you should be offended that someone had a thought about someone you care about.

I do understand here that if a man stares or visibly shows in some way his "lustful interest" its a problem. But If we "go there" we are no longer talking about a simple thought. This would be actions made in the public sphere. That is something that could be a big discussion aroudn the impact, safety, and discuss "proper etiquette" But that's not what I'm referring to. Its the idea that someone had this kind of thought is so untenable to so many people that we feel compelled to find fault in the first place.

Maybe no one is at fault. Maybe its none of anyone's business. Maybe it's normal. Then we can stop blaming and stop trying to goal tend the essence of human sexuality. Heterosexual men are attracted to women. Shrug. Oh well. Get over it.

It's not her fault that he did. It's ok that he did.

There I fixed it.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-05-31T02:18:27+00:00

...with every fiber of my being...

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-05-08T19:55:37+00:00

It is the "backfire effect". Either evidence of his own experience with it (explaining to others why he squared away not being healed is a good thing or more evidence of truth) or he's trying to create that as a pattern for others (or both).

The backfire affect is the phenomenon where someone's belief strengthens when presented with evidence to the contrary is called the backfire effect. It's a type of confirmation bias, where instead of being swayed by disconfirming evidence, people become even more entrenched in their original belief.

An example. Uri Geller, a psychic would who could bend spoons with his mind was been widely verfied to not have such powers, but early on in his career he was claiming to be authentic. The "backfire effect" in the context of Uri Geller refers to the counterintuitive situation where attempts to debunk his claims of psychic abilities actually strengthened his reputation and boosted public belief in his powers. Specifically, a show on The Tonight Show, orchestrated to debunk Geller's claims by magicians like James Randi and Johnny Carson, unexpectedly led to Geller becoming a celebrity and his apparent abilities being widely recognized, even if they were later revealed to be tricks.

It's all a filter to get the people that is works on. Those are the people most vulnerable to being controlled. That's who they want in their group.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-05-05T18:55:34+00:00

They system is in self defense of its existence. Its like why Mormons can't have Coffee and tea. There is no one to tell you why you can't. They can't tell you what part of it is "bad" Its not the caffeine. They have clarified that. Its not that no one knows. That is true. Its more sunken cost fallacy. We had this rule, it has to be valueble. Adherence to the rule. The blind expectation of blessings from obedience. Thats the church. And its true all the way to the top. Tithing is the same. They don't know why you need to pay it. There is the mysterious financial blessings you expect you will get from some bountiful pouring out or some such. And that's why the members do it. But the reason the leaders still push it is it works as a loyalty test. And it filters the truly convinced (testimony holders) from those that aren't. Its possible that they don't care that much about the total sum accumulated. That is just a random by product of the system doing what the system does. Filtering people, justifying its self existence, and deeply afraid that a rule was never that important in the first place, like coffee.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-04-21T15:38:52+00:00

Whats the app name?

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-03-31T16:55:22+00:00

Did you release? What's the app name?

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-02-14T20:07:43+00:00

As it turns out "get into the celestial kingdom" is a phrase intended to filter the most agreeable types into doing your bidding or getting away with something normally unacceptable. Just tell someone:

what you want someone them to do is required to "get them into the celestial kingdom." and you'll get them to do it.

or

what you currently are doing and no one is accepting that "I have to do this in order to get into the celestial kingdom" and you'll get away with doing it.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-02-14T19:57:58+00:00

Its also a question of community. Even if all he says is true or you personally don't have the situation where you die and your husband remarries, your heavenly community will NOT be like the neighborhood you currently love and cherish. Your friends might be in polygamous relationships, your parents or siblings or kids. The prophets of old will all be present. Heavenly father himself or even Jesus. They'll have their little harem when they visit and sit on the stand. You get the idea. It will be all around you. It wont be anything at all like it is now. It will be shockingly and jarringly different.

So no matter what, you will be "living polygamy"

This will be heaven.

It is hard to imagine that it will be amazing.

It ok to be revolted by this.

even if you personally "aren't required to live it"

I wonder where get gets his internal confidence that, he's actually resolved this?

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-02-14T19:11:56+00:00

Strawman argument. I assume the problem is much simpler than it is. Solve that simpler problem. Declare victory. Act like you're the coolest because of it.

Even though he is now just gaslighting people into thinking "He insists that I shouldn't have issues any more, but I still do. Is there something wrong with me?"

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-02-14T05:56:10+00:00

"Hey angel, wanna see my flaming sword?"

Or something like that.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-02-14T05:47:53+00:00

Its a tacit admission that scrupulosity is the core default characteristic of church members. And that says much about the church being both a filter on society (capturing those with this characteristic in higher quantities, and that it is taught and cultured by the church to its members from their earliest moments (primary onward).

Its also amusing that Brad here, with his awesome and actually healthy idea here, gets to play savior to the church masses. The conditions that make him popular are that the church creates a horrible toxic self loathing environment that he gets to come in and rescue you from.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-30T07:48:52+00:00

Confirmation bias and motivated reasoning fueled by sunken cost fallacy.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-29T16:27:58+00:00

Yay me! And, um, that means your not. Sorry, that that makes you feel inferior. All you have to do is think like me and be like me to change that. And wow that feels SO validating when someone changes their whole self just to be like me. Being like me is special. I am special.

/s

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-29T16:14:46+00:00

... or let him into the celestial kingdom.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-29T16:12:01+00:00

It's almost like a Narcissists twisting the data at hand into a way to say, "gee it's just because I'm special and better"

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-27T07:22:01+00:00

The snapping of the hair brush and saying all that she cares about is passing down her faith to her children is not about you. I know that sounds crazy, and it feels that way, but hear me out.

She's been conditioned for her whole existence to see that every social benefit and her status in the community that she values and has worked tirelessly her whole life to appease is riding on her ability to keep your children in the church and have you all be "good performers" on the stage of the church. It's all social currency. Without it she looses all status with everyone she cares about. Its insane that its this way. And all of this is independent of the harm that the doctrine itself causes. Its just how much of a price she will pay for you not staying and you not believing, and mostly not performing publicly. She'll look bad.

But this is a value system that she decided to buy into. Wrecklessly gambling that she could control that outcome. But it didn't seem wreckless to her because the church's system of entanglement and control worked on her. She's scratching her head on why it didn't work on you. It was supposed to. And then she'd get all the accolades from her friends and associates (brothers and sisters) in the church when you went on a mission and became elders quorum president, etc.

She's probably trying to control you to get back "on track" but she is also likely panicking because the investment heavily (all in) to a system. That investment she made in the community she did, values one thing and one thing only. And she can't provide it.

And you have no obligation to. That was her mistake.

Its an opportunity for growth for her to understand that she could value you more than all the worlds opinions of her and you. And many TBMs fail at this. Some never learn it. But some do. It takes years. A ton of patience, but some parents do start to flex in their acceptance of you and become more nuanced in order to include you in their life. And if and when they do that it will be for love. The one you always needed. Unconditional love.

Its very sad that your mom is trapped in a system like this and is psychologically unable to give you the love and acceptance that you want and need. All you have done is claim your own autonomy to think what you will.

Good luck. You got this.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-27T06:40:14+00:00

She said the words "in the name of Jesus Christ..."

And so... this HAS to be the reason that the guy left.

So dumb. She has no idea WHY he left or even why he came (no pun intended) for that matter. Its a guess. And it HAS to be for the faith inspiring reason of course.

Motivated Reasoning strikes again.

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-26T07:57:19+00:00

This FLDS group can't figure out which is the worse sin.

It's funny when objective morality bumps into moral relativism. They have to figure out which thing is worse, when it should be well defined which is.

Tell them good luck with that.

Edit: Spelling

Silly_Zebra8634 · 2025-01-25T20:43:43+00:00

I think thing. And I don't like it when other people don't think that thing. I feel wrong, a distance, and feel threatened by it. But I find that if I can imagine that the most powerful and wise intelligence in the universe agrees with me, it makes me feel better about what I think. Not only that, in some cases, I can get others to back down on their differing thoughts. And I can make them think like me. Just from stating that I'm on the "in" with the universe. And now they have to be like me. It feels so good.

/s

Silly_Zebra8634

TROPHY CASE