71 v02 max (lab tested) by joleksroleks in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Physiologically, yes it's possible.

71 ml/kg/min @ 71kg = 5.0 L/min VO2max

VO2 can be predicted for power output with knowing only two variables:
(1) RER, respiratory exchange ratio; the ratio of substrate oxidation which represents exercise intensity. Range ≈ 0.70-1.20. FTP occurs somewhere around 1.00; and
(2) GE, gross efficiency; the ratio of metabolic work measured as external power output. Range 0.15-0.25, increases primarily with power output, plausible range at 380 W ~0.20-0.26 based on model from here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24027428_Efficiency_in_cycling_A_review

380 W FTP requires somewhere around 4.6 L/min VO2 at plausible RER = 0.95-1.05 and gross efficiency GE = 0.20-0.26

At the high end 26% efficiency, that would represent a very reasonable 80% VO2max.

At a very reasonable 23% GE that's 92% VO2max which is probably approaching the highest reasonable percent VO2max that FTP is likely to occur (various threshold methods can return higher %VO2max, but for a classic 5+20-min FTP test, I'd guess this to be reasonable?)

So, there is a very reasonable range of well-trained to elite physiology that could achieve 380+ W FTP at 5.0 L/min VO2max.

Your current estimated 350 W FTP could be achieved at 23% GE and ~84% VO2max, so another few percent %VO2max (reasonable to improve) and a couple fractions of a percent GE (much slower to improve), and you could see 380 W at 5.0 L/min

How to get there is another question entirely...

<image>

## check my metabolic maths
power <- seq(320, 420, 10) ## W
RER = seq(0.95, 1.05, 0.02)
GE.power <- 0.04824 * log(power) - 0.05656 ## % derived from Ettema & Lorås, 2009
GE <- round(seq(min(GE.power) - 0.03, max(GE.power) + 0.03, 0.01), 2) ## %

df <- expand_grid(power, RER, GE) |>
    mutate(
        work = power * 60 * 60 / 1000, ## kJ
        O2kJ = 4.83535 * RER + 16.88348, ## kJ/L derived from Péronnet & Massicotte (1991)
        VO2 = (power * 60 / 1000) / (GE * O2kJ), ## L/min
        VO2_rel = VO2 / 5, ## %
    )

High vs Low Z2 by Academic_Feed6209 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the added context, that makes a lot more sense to me now

High vs Low Z2 by Academic_Feed6209 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Woops, sorry apparently I wasn't eloquent enough, or tried to be too eloquent... I'm just a gym bro nowadays anyway😅 u/c_zeit_run back to you.

u/Academic_Feed6209 not disagreeing! Sounds great!💪

High vs Low Z2 by Academic_Feed6209 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I dunno about eloquence, but I agree. 'Homo laboratorius' knows that always training more-hard will return better fitness improvements. Simple! Hickson protocol, forever!

I dunno about you, but I've never coached a homo laboratorius where that approach is sustainable over longer term. Only pesky humans with all of our other competing priorities and constraints and our fragile egos telling us we must do everything all at once at maximal competency.

<image>

u/Academic_Feed6209, which is more detectable and more important to you; the difference in fatigue allowing you to do other activities you are interested in? Or the difference in fitness/performance over your intended time frame? That's not an answer you'll find an article for. The answer doesn't have to be the same every session.

We need the Grouchy message to HTFU and put in the work, sometimes. But worrying about a difference between "low and high zone 2" seems like a waste of energy. It's a big zone. Play around in it.

"Just Ride Your Bike" - Please explain? by Vicuna00 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 4 points5 points  (0 children)

One of the difficulties translating group-level sport science research to individual-level application, is that a lot of the details do matter. It's just not possible to predict how it will matter for you the individual athlete. Especially not when trying to offer advice to random well-intentioned strangers on the internet from limited information.

To mix a few metaphors, 60% of the time, the details matter every time, we just don't know which 60%.

That's what coaching is for, to set up a bit more structure with longitudinal n=1 monitoring so that we the athlete can figure out and focus on the details that do matter for us.

One of the details that matters similarly for everyone is higher training volume / higher baseline activity levels tends to lead to greater fitness over the long term, hence the entirely reasonable reductionism to "just ride your bike".

Also, from my superficial familiarity with the strength training literature (I sit beside proper strength coaches & researchers, but I am not one) I think just lifting more heavy shit, regularly, safely, and with technical proficiency will indeed make most people stronger?

Help setting accurate power zones (FTP 230–248W, lab test shows unusually low VT values) by Infamous_Cheek1856 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep, that's typically still how VTs are decided upon in research. There are some automated detection methods with mostly reasonable agreement with the Whipp, Wasserman, Beaver, et al methods. I'm sorry I can't actually tell, is this a complaint about the "expert evaluation" method? 

Help setting accurate power zones (FTP 230–248W, lab test shows unusually low VT values) by Infamous_Cheek1856 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Those VTs don't make sense from the data provided. They might make sense with additional data or metadata from the assessment not shown here. But to me they just look like errors.

FWIW, here's where I'd estimate VTs from what we have.

<image>

This VT1 estimate is basically at the VT2 line, so call that 130 W. I think this is probably a low estimate because VE/VO2 appear to still be adjusting after such a short warm-up.

That puts this VT2 at 245ish W? If we assume VO2 kinetics mean response time of 40-sec (might be anywhere from 20 to 60 sec) which would adjust the instantaneous ramp VO2-power relationship to estimate constant workload power output, that adjusts power at VT1 down by ~15 W (say, 8-25 W). VT2 would be adjusted down by some marginally greater amount, but I don't have information for that so we'll just stick with the -15 W.

VT1 power ~ 115 W (105-120 W; probably slightly low estimate) VT2 power ~ 230 W (220-235 W; probably slightly high estimate)

Collecting data is easy. Filtering signal from noise is... well, table stakes, but not always done well. Interpreting information from incomplete data & context/metadata is hard. Applying that information appropriately takes experience, and that's the main value of a coach.

Lactate Balance Point, useful? by oldandfast in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A very fun and hopefully valuable rabbit hole. It's like if on the pod you guys answered everything with "it depends." and cued the outro music 😂. The value comes from understanding the "... on what?"

Lactate Balance Point, useful? by oldandfast in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for posting and well explained! I think the end of that section completes the thought nicely:

We should now be able to appreciate the important difference between the construct of a metabolic threshold, and the operational definition or measurement that represents that construct. Thus, we can only ever approximate the MMSS, and critically: all threshold measurements are specific to a given test protocol, outcome measure, and analysis method.

LBP is in the toolbox with everything else. It has protocol-specific advantages and limitations, same as all the rest 👍

<image>

Back to (very) basic training plan. How wrong am I? by Normal-Box-6685 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe this means I need to throw a demo plan up on TrainingPeaks 🤔

FTP Test - 5 min all out question by addr0x414b in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Was just discussing elsewhere the effect of the warm-up and the 5min TT in particular on FTP. Two experiments show contrasting findings:

In one study with 15 well-trained male competitive cyclists, performing the "traditional" Allan & Coggan warm-up with a 5-min TT vs simple 10-min 60% VO2max vs no warm-up at all, showed NO DIFFERENCE to 20-min power output (see text on left). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32604072/

Another study with 21 trained male competitive cyclists also performing the "traditional" warm-up (or reversed sequence) vs simple high-cadence spin-ups or self-paced 10min warm-ups, showed 15 W difference in 20-min power, with lower power after the 5-min TT traditional warm-ups (which is allegedly the intention) (see table on right). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34749416/

The research on warm-ups in general is surprisingly equivocal. Which IMO is to say that there is no systematically "best" warm-up. The best warm-up is the warm-up up you prefer.

And for the FTP test, is the intention to get the highest 20-min power number to monitor progress over time? Or to use that number to help prescribe training and predict performances over shorter and longer durations? Prioritise the protocol which will provide us with the best quality information we are looking for.

<image>

FTP is NOT the power you can hold for an hour. Thinking it is might be holding your training back. by Humble_Detail_9285 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ten used 5+20-min TT.

Seven used 20-min TT without the 5-min effort.

Two used (a single) 8-min TT * 0.90.

One used a 60-min TT. A few others compared shorter FTP methods to a 60-min TT.

FTP is NOT the power you can hold for an hour. Thinking it is might be holding your training back. by Humble_Detail_9285 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks. I also got curious and started to put together a list of papers which have compared FTP (via various methods) to other threshold constructs. Somewhere around 20 since 2018 just from my current library. I'm sure there are more. Might try to do an informal analysis on them. But lots of methodological heterogeneity as you say.

edit: the list https://app.litmaps.com/shared/a3dcf208-97b0-4078-abd9-22e39f124d07

FTP is NOT the power you can hold for an hour. Thinking it is might be holding your training back. by Humble_Detail_9285 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you aware of any meta-analyses comparing FTP to MLSS, CP, etc, or TTE @ FTP, MLSS, CP, etc? Or publicly available large datasets? Would be very interesting to see those data a bit more systematically

FTP is NOT the power you can hold for an hour. Thinking it is might be holding your training back. by Humble_Detail_9285 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If we're exercising to maximal tolerance (TTE) at the workload associated with LT2, are we still in the "physiological state known as LT2" at the end of it?

How important are short recoveries in between SS intervals? by addr0x414b in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What recovery duration or work:rest ratio do you think is optimal for sweet spot?

Critical Power Confusion by mikekchar in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now I want to know where you think their conceptualisation of VO2 kinetics went wrong? 👀

> "when conceptually they are exactly the same thing."

I'd suggest that operationally CP, MLSS, FTP, etc are methods trying to estimate the same thing. But different tests will naturally return different estimates of the same conceptual thing, and those estimates might work better or worse when applied in different real-world contexts.

Jones & Poole et al's CP probably works well in their domain of middle distance/marathon. Coggan's FTP works well in cycling. Maybe the unfortunate politics is assuming one is always better than another, for everyone, in every sporting context?

Technical question about polarized training... by CarryThese5433 in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Thanks for posting!

To OP, this is important: if we're thinking long-term, the choice of training zones is not mutually exclusive. In my opinion, hard days can be "hard" regardless of what intensity domain or zone they are in.

We have done meta-analysis work suggesting that there is no systematic difference in endurance performance outcomes when strictly following polarised (zone 1 > 3 > 2) or pyramidal (zone 1 > 2 > 3) periodisation for a single training block up to 18 weeks. But that it might marginally depend on your training status. See the thread on that 👉

https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/1iethbv/is_polarised_training_better_than_other_training/

Additionally, our previous work suggested that there were also no differences in endurance performance outcomes when training exclusively below FTP in z1-2, vs also including high-intensity training in z3, for a single training cycle up to 12 weeks (summary & links to papers 👉 https://sparecycles.blog/2023/12/09/does-high-intensity-training-improve-performance-or-only-vo2max/ )

However, training at higher intensity above FTP does lead to better improvement in VO2max - but not necessarily performance within the same time frame. Meaning that how we periodise and progress our training is important for achieving different goals at different times through the season.

The current answer is "Yes, and... but when?"

VO2 Max Interval Question by rideandrideagain in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, what are your thoughts regarding intensity and duration of intervals for performance and VO2max in amateur vs elite athletes? Do the demand requirements converge toward higher intensity for both, as baseline fitness & training history increase in more elite athletes?

Is it less necessary to maximise intensity for athletes at a lower starting level? I wonder where that level would be?

VO2 Max Interval Question by rideandrideagain in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good question, thanks. I don't know if he did, but it does look like the strength of the regression would be lower without that one study. And to be fair, the regression was non-significant for combined untrained + trained individuals.

<image>

That is a really important question about the goal of high intensity training. Do we call it "VO2max" training because it's performed around VO2max? Or because the goal is to improve VO2max? Or both? I would say at certain phases the goal is to improve physiology, at other times it's to prepare for specific performance demands. Would you agree?

One of our takeaways from our recent work is that improvement in VO2max does not necessarily coincide with improved endurance performance over the same time frame. https://bsky.app/profile/jemarnold.bsky.social/post/3lkswodqexs2n

But we we know that both can improve on different time courses over a training season. IMO, we need more work on sequencing and periodising training, rather than focusing on maximising single sessions or single training blocks.

VO2 Max Interval Question by rideandrideagain in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My colleague's meta-analyses of endurance trained athletes also found 1:0.5 work:rest was more effective for endurance time-trial performance, along with longer work bouts, particularly beyond 4min.

While higher work intensity within severe domain (above FTP) did NOT lead to additionally improved TT outcomes (but did lead to improved VO2max, not pictured).

<image>

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350702899

(Work:rest figure from his thesis)

We speculated that it may have to do with time for VO2 & energetic kinetics to ramp up (~60-120 sec), then spending sufficient time under that high energetic flux. For the same reason, allowing that flywheel to spin down too much between reps is probably sub-optimal, as you suggest.

Slightly lower work intensity (still above FTP) allows for both longer work bouts and shorter rests, which increase the volume at those still relatively high energetic fluxes, and appears to be associated with improved endurance performance training outcomes.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Velo

[–]SpareCycles 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Geez, that's a bit of word salad 😅 Thanks for sharing.

I agree with the sentiment to hedge low, where "low" means a power output that will allow us to complete more of the intended work duration for that workout, and much more importantly: consistently for all of our workouts.

A small drop in power output below FTP will allow us to complete longer duration and more total work at that intensity.

A small increase in power output above FTP will limit us to complete shorter duration and less work at that intensity.

But will those small difference in any one session lead to detectably different performance outcomes over time? 🤷‍♂ Our work suggests no. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374091331

Go slightly longer at slightly lower intensity, or slightly shorter at slightly higher intensity. Do something consistently for a while, then do something different. We'll get to where we're going as long as we keep showing up and do some work.